First time OTing ICC 10 as a Warrior.....Oh boy

[Tophat]

Salutations, last night was my first half guild/half pug ICC10 attempt and my first time tanking any raid. Things did not go well for a multitude of reasons (bad group makeup, my lack of experience, lack of communication, someone removed the ICC buff, etc etc).

Now I've NEVER offtanked anything as.......I've never done any raids! so I was fairly clueless as to what my job was and felt kinda bad for my group so I'd like to ask a few questions.

1, The MT did not specify exactly what trash he wanted me on, is this normal or do I simply imply that I should be on the trash that he is seemingly ignoring?

2, Is it normal for the OT to not use Devastate as to quote, "You're only here to help mitigate damage so don't use devastate just use everything else do you don't pass me in aggro" - Both of us were warriors mind you with him nearly fully decked out in ICC 10/25 gear and myself in mostly 232 badge gear.

3, Caster trash was seemingly ignored by the MT and I had to stand on him to mitigate the damage from abilities some trash deal, is it normal for caster trash to run rampant or should I move off the MT really quick to get their attention and go back to sitting on the MT?

4, I was under the assumption that both tanks would put Vigilance on each other as we're both going to be doing the most threat however the MT seemed to get quite angry when I did it and made me put it on some warlock. Is it normal for you not to want Vigilance on the 2nd highest threat dealer or is there something I am missing?

5, Lastly, it's bad if I am being told what I need to do after we've started a fight and I've made a mistake correct?

I'd really appreciate some answers to my questions as I really hate to disappoint my guild and felt my performance could have been MUCH better with a bit more knowledge about being the OT, thanks in advance.

[Dreador]

Start with an armory link so your gear can be evaluated as well. Check here ---> http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-Tanking-Guide for a good generalization of gearing, speccing and rotation.

Once you have that down, go here ---> http://www.tankspot.com/forumdisplay...d-Movie-Guides and educate yourself on the boss encounters so you know what you're stepping into.

1. He should not ignore anything, but just pick up whatever. Trash is an aoe fest and has been a joke this whole expansion. Make sure healers and DPS are safe and try to make yourself look good as a newbie.

2. That's retarded. Use whatever abilities you want, keep tclap and demo shout on. If you need to watch your threat use OMEN.

3. Why were you sitting on him? Silence the mobs if you can to get them closer to you or just run around them keeping threat as you go.

4. Sounds like your MT's threat is horribly bad considering this question and #1 and #2. Place vigilance on who it makes sense to put it on.

5. Use the links above and avoid being told what to do after the fight starts. If they knew that you were new and just went without cluing you in, that's bad leadership, I'd go raid with someone else because these people sound dumb and irresponsible.

[Tophat]

Ah right Armory links
Mine is: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...rion&cn=Tophat
Other tank (If interested): http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Fight%C3%A8r

As for sitting on him, he wanted me to do it as the Deathbound Wards use Sabre Lash and we pulled those with a multitude of other trash.

[cwegga]

1. Yeah, trash is do whatever time. Try to keep things off healers and casters and that's about it. You might want to try to pick a bunch up to make it look like you're doing something. I'm lazy and just let my MT tank all the trash except the one that I use for a rage battery. But he's a Paladin and has quite good threat so I would have to tab taunt and tab SS to pull mobs off him and it's just not worth it for trash.

2. No, that's an excuse for him having weak threat. Use your threat meter and don't get more threat than the MT but any good MT shouldn't be a problem. You won't have enough rage being OT to out threat him anyway unless you taunt.

3. Eh, either way. I'd grab stuff if it wasn't aggroed on the other tank. We don't worry about special abilities from trash until we get to the blood wing in ICC...but my raid is probably better geared than your pug...

4. Dual vigilance might work awesome with two warriors. I have a Paladin MT so he wouldn't be happy if I Vig'ed him. I'd probably pass him in threat and the DPS might be threat limited for some fights. He probably freaked because he didn't have Vig on you, that would make it pretty uneven. Normally I vigilance the hunter in my raid because she pulls the most threat. Generally Vigilance goes on the highest threat (non-tank unless needed for the taunt refresh) in the raid. Or you could go with second or third threat if they are a DPS warrior for example with no threat dumps and the hunter can FD and MD. Both Viging eachother probably would have worked fine but the MT probably wasn't used to that.

5. Eh, not so bad. Mistakes happen especially on first times through stuff and especially with half the raid pugs. Plans change sometimes partway through fights and that needs to be said. If they didn't tell you exactly what you needed to do for fights when you're new, that's bad raid leading. If you screwed up and needed to be told what to do...it happens. Do better next time and don't sweat it.

[Tinytankz]

You know not everyone puts cool poses on their armory but, i like your style.

[Gutfang]

As a warrior, you'll need to hold threat on at least some of the trash in order to maintain adequate rage. If you don't, you won't be nearly as effective. He most likely didn't want you getting the attention of any of the trash because it would impact his rage generation.

Bottom line ... As everyone has indicated above, trash is a free-for-all. Just keep them off the dps and off the healers. Stack with your MT on the cleaving elites.

If you're new to any of it, be up front and try to get an explanation before the fights start. You should try to be familiar with the required strats by reading up on them as much as you can beforehand. That's your responsibility. But, if they don't explain their goals for you adequately and they don't let you know exactly what they want you to do, it's their fault. I wouldn't run with them again.

On a side note, I rarely pair two of the same type of tank in any raid. Not only does it help in some of the gear distrubition, it also allows for differences in the strengths of the classes to be utilized to the raid's benefit.

[Tophat]

I really do appreciate the help and advice from everyone, it's good to know I wasn't the only one at fault haha. Most of you have concluded the group was seemingly bad overall but next time I'll use the advice from all of you and hopefully things will go better so thanks again guys.

[Dreador]

Ah right Armory links
Mine is: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...rion&cn=Tophat
Other tank (If interested): http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Fight%C3%A8r

As for sitting on him, he wanted me to do it as the Deathbound Wards use Sabre Lash and we pulled those with a multitude of other trash.

Got it with the wards. Probably a little bit smarter to pull those alone if at all possible, or not at all as in many cases (rogue required). As for the armories, you're doing it right but for the red gem in the yellow slot, try to stick that where you get a socket bonus! No biggie there. 2% threat is a garbage enchant, better off with 18 stam or 240 armor armor kits. Titanium plating is inferior to 18 stam to shield.

Otherwise you are good. Your MT however has made some questionable gemming choices, 10stats is bad for all but druid tanks, and gemming strength is useless. He should use a 10 dodge or agi/15 stam gem in the helm and the rest should be stamina. Blade ward is terrible and otherwise the same advice goes for him. He should also change to your shoulder enchant.

[Tophat]

Yea I don't think the other tank knows about handy sites like this haha. His logic for not getting blood draining was "I have healers when I tank" but I do believe he is going to switch to dps thankfully. As for the few errors in gear on my end I'll fix those as soon as I can!

Thanks once more you guys have been superb help.

[Griff]

It sounds like the other tank was pretty cranky. Two warrior tanks isn't the best makeup for icc though, to be honest.

I always find raiding with a tank I don't know to be a learning process. Tanks and healers are different from DPS in that we need to cooperate with our colleagues within a raid. Thus, team work is much more important and its tough to have it be seamless for the first time, even with experienced tanks. Typically, with trash, the primary tank should pick up the priority kill target(s) in the trash pack for focus fire while the OT rounds up the rabble and keeps the squishies free from mobs pulled free.

Trash is basically a face roll for dps classes, but its less so for the tanks. Responsibility for wipes/partial wipes on trash almost always starts with tanks.

P.S. Vigilance is almost always better on a dps class like a melee with few aggro reduction talents like the fury warrior. Its okay for other tanks in fights where there are taunt rotations but you'll want to buff it on them after the initial pull when threat margins are more likely to be narrow.

[Dreador]

It sounds like the other tank was pretty cranky. Two warrior tanks isn't the best makeup for icc though, to be honest.

How so?

Trash is basically a face roll for dps classes, but its less so for the tanks. Responsibility for wipes/partial wipes on trash almost always starts with tanks.

It's a faceroll for tanks too, wiping means someone was careless but it's not always the tanks. Someone could step on a trap or aggro a group you were skipping too.

P.S. Vigilance is almost always better on a dps class like a melee with few aggro reduction talents like the fury warrior. Its okay for other tanks in fights where there are taunt rotations but you'll want to buff it on them after the initial pull when threat margins are more likely to be narrow.

It has it's uses on tanks, the unlimited taunt comes to mind on Valithria and Saurfang to name two obvious ones.

[Griff]

How so

2, Is it normal for the OT to not use Devastate as to quote, "You're only here to help mitigate damage so don't use devastate just use everything else do you don't pass me in aggro"

Cranky, the quality of being a crank. As in someone who holds unusual beliefs rather than the meaning of someone who got up on the wrong side of the bed.

It's a faceroll for tanks too, wiping means someone was careless but it's not always the tanks. Someone could step on a trap or aggro a group you were skipping too.

Its only a face roll for dps if the tanks are doing their job. People stepping on traps or aggroing another group isn't always the fault of the tank, but frequently it is. DPS dpses where we are tanking and generally, we get to choose to tank. Thus, through carelessness, if we haven't anticipated potential aggro from other trash packs or likely trap locations and positioned the aoe pile accordingly, the issue is ultimately our own. Situational awareness for dps typically involves that individual staying alive. Situational awareness for tanks generally encompasses survival for the raid as well.

Now I don't want to seem like I'm overstating trash - it's not usually a big deal but there's more to it for tanks than just hitting your aoe keybind.

It has it's uses on tanks, the unlimited taunt comes to mind on Valithria and Saurfang to name two obvious ones.

Quite so, hence the qualifcations in my statement.

[Aggathon]

If you're putting vigilance on eachother and there's no taunt rotation and you're on the same target (see: marrowgar) then the threat cancels out and all you're getting is the 3% dmg reduction buff which is also covered by disc priests and prot pallies. If you don't have the 3% dmg reduction buff from somewhere else then it probably is a good idea.

WTF are you supposed to do if you're OTing if you're not hitting devastate? Hit SS once every 6 seconds? No, it's just his fault for not generating threat. He should be passing you by a lot if he's the MT.

Griff: I think he meant "how is two prot warriors bad in 10 man." Like honestly ya it might not be as optimal as prot war/prot pally (for example) but I've done some very good ICC10s with the other tank being a warrior.

And trash is pretty faceroll.

[Griff]

Griff: I think he meant "how is two prot warriors bad in 10 man." Like honestly ya it might not be as optimal as prot war/prot pally (for example) but I've done some very good ICC10s with the other tank being a warrior.

Yeah..I never really said it was bad, its just redundant.

[Fledern]

Tanks vigilancing each other is mostly only good for taunt switching fights where you might need taunt refreshes.
A warrior offtank if he's not tanking actively will be generating crap threat due to lack of rage. By vigilancing the other tank, you're actually robbing him of aggro while contributing little yourself. Putting it on a high threat dps both ups your personal threat and increases that dps' threat ceiling.

Otherwise, from the other comments, i'd say your co-tank is terribad and he knows it :P. For trash as long as stuff isnt loose and hitting any one of the tanks, it's all good. Leaving ranged adds wild isnt really a good idea. Shieldbashing them into the aoe is a good move, go for it (make sure those adds arent near to other packs that may get pulled if you try that - the trash before valithera comes to mind). However, moving off to get them while you're required to absorb deathwarden cleaves is also a bad idea - well, theoretically bad idea; that other tank should easily solotank them with his gear & 25% buff. If you cant move, there's always heroic throw :P

[Dreador]

Yeah..I never really said it was bad, its just redundant.

Really isn't, they bring all the utility that any class is capable of and more. Just because there's no LOLDNDFIREFARTing going on....

[Griff]

Greater Blessing of Sanc

Lol Dread, sometimes I think you just like to disagree with me