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Thread: The New DK (Cataclysm Talents)

  1. #1
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    The New DK (Cataclysm Talents)

    Edit - Wow I wrote this up and then found a functional talent calculator. Oh well, this is what I've been rocking minus Spell Deflection. http://www.wowtal.com/#k=3hJV1tr71111.9gq.deathknight
    Fun to look at the new possibilities.


    DAMAGING ABILITIES -
    Rune Strike now hits for 200% weapon damage with a slower recharge. It is an instant.
    Death and Decay is now a ONE blood rune ability, but it does 1/3rd of the previous damage.
    Hysteria is removed completely.
    Heart Strike is now 130% weapon damage on primary target, -25% damage on every target past the first for a maximum of 3 targets total. 10% additional damage for every disease that's up.
    Blood Worms - *NEW TALENT* now spawns 1 worm that grows larger the more damage it does. Its health also increases and it gains a Blood Gorged buff. Once it stacks to 10 it explodes and heals everyone around them for 30% of their health.
    Blood Gorged - GONE
    Anticipation (5% dodge) - GONE
    Blood Swarm - *NEW TALENT*- Blood Boil costs no runes after using plague strike. Deep blood talent.
    Blood Caked Blood - In the Blood Tree
    Might of Morgraine - Increases the damage dealt by your Blood Strike, Heart Strike, and Rune Strike abilities by [5%/10%/15%/20%/25%].


    TANKING ABILITIES AND TALENT CHANGES -
    Blood Presence now does what Frost Presence does. No other changes.
    Bone Shield is identical to live and now in the Blood tree.
    Icy Touch is a base 20% speed reduction.
    Blood Boil (talented) will now apply an AP debuff, which is 10% for all tank classes.
    Icebound Fortitude can be talented to 60% with no runic power cost.
    Improved Blood Presence talent makes you crit immune and let's you retain 4% damage reduction in the other 2 presences. The self-healing component from live Blood Presence is gone completely.
    Improved Death Strike is now +75% healing for a total of 17.5% healing of your max health with 2 diseases (up from 15% with 2 diseases)
    Veteran of the Third War is now +9% Stamina and +6 Expertise.
    Will of the Necropolis The 15 second ICD is back; 25% damage reduction for swings that take you below 30% health for 8 seconds after the proc. In addition proccing WotN gives you a Blood Rune and refreshes Rune Tap.
    Dancing Rune Weapon now gives +20% Parry while active in addition to it's old effect. I bolded the whole sentence because this is awesome
    Toughness - In the Blood Tree


    Masteries -

    Life Shield - Life Shield provides a shield like a power word shield based off a % of the healing of death strike. Of the masteries so far, Life Shield is the most "interesting" in that it isn't a passive uncontrollable bonus. You can see and watch it work, it increases the already VERY increased value of Death Strike.

    Damage Reduction - Reduces damage taken by a percentage. Awesome, but yawn.

    Vengeance - Increases attack power by a percentage of damage taken, up to a maximum of a percentage of the character's health. Hasn't actually worked properly on Alpha yet, and for most heroics is somewhere in the 50 AP range. Will be interesting to see for raid bosses.

    Screenshots and such later, but figured I would open it up for discussion.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 07-01-2010 at 12:11 AM.

  2. #2
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    Nice info! and at midnight! ;P

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    Scooped! I was going to have a full brief ready to go, but I didn't expect the NDA to drop so quickly. Here are some slight adjustments/context, bear in mind that I haven't played yesterday's build yet, so feel free to correct me if my info is dated. (I also went for the same spec, though I've been pushing to see if Blizz will make the Frost/Unholy trees a little more interesting to tanks for secondary talent spending).

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Death and Decay is now a ONE blood rune ability, but it does 1/3rd of the previous damage.
    I'm pretty sure this one is stuck in the pre-balanced mess. Threat is miserable for most everyone right now, but tanking as a DK was a nightmare, last I tried. Boomkin got one crit and pulled most anything off me. I spent more time taunting than using spells. Bye bye Morbidity. =(

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Hysteria is removed completely.
    They redesigned it and moved it to tier 3 in Unholy. Now called Unholy Frenzy and grants 10% haste instead of 20% physical damage boost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Blood Worms - *NEW TALENT* now spawns 1 worm that grows larger the more damage it does. Its health also increases and it gains a Blood Gorged buff. Once it stacks to 10 it explodes and heals everyone around them for 30% of their health.
    When I tested it before yesterday it only healed 10% of your max health, and it takes about 4-6 sec of attacking for it to swell and burst. Haven't tested concretely if it has a total healed cap (i.e. if it will only heal up to 5 people, or if the total healing has a capped amount, would be a little surprised on the latter for a static number, but maybe the % can get split).

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Blood Swarm - *NEW TALENT*- Blood Boil costs no runes after using plague strike. Deep blood talent.
    Prior to most recent build was not working, but while I like the idea, there are a lot of complaints that it costs 5 points for a semi-minor effect. Still awesome in combination with Hemorrhagic Fever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Frost Fever is a base 20% speed reduction.
    All attack speed debuffs are standardized at 20% attack speed reduction, no talenting required for DKs and Warriors (Bears and Pallies still have to talent to get the effect at all).

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Blood Boil (talented) will now apply an AP debuff, which is 10% for all tank classes.
    Previous AP debuff is now 10% damage reduction. DKs apply theirs with BB (via Hemorrhagic Fever, nomnom).

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Will of the Necropolis The 15 second ICD is back; 25% damage reduction for swings that take you below 30% health for 8 seconds after the proc. In addition proccing WotN gives you a Blood Rune and refreshes Rune Tap.
    Love the new format. Best of both worlds with a powerful but temporal low health save, combined with a way for the player to benefit from quick reflexes; reinforces the use of Rune Tap, and gives stronger protection from the occasional dips (which should be more common now with the move towards *not* fast flexing health, i.e. empty/full/empty/full).

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Dancing Rune Weapon now gives +20% Parry while active in addition to it's old effect. I bolded the whole sentence because this is awesome
    I copied the sentence because I agree. Delicious. The only tricky is with Runic Empowerment which is really a big deal for tanks and triggers off of RS. On the plus side, the new rune system combined with Runic Empowerment, RS as an active skill, and the delicious DRW as a survival CD all make SoB dreamy just the way it is!

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Life Shield - Life Shield provides a shield like a power word shield based off a % of the healing of death strike. Of the masteries so far, Life Shield is the most "interesting" in that it isn't a passive uncontrollable bonus. You can see and watch it work, it increases the already VERY increased value of Death Strike.
    51 pts in Blood (which is very easy to spend in a giddy shopping spree) you start at 100% for this mastery. In other words you heal yourself for 17.5% of your total health and get a bubble of the same size. Scales pretty generously currently with Mastery. There are some health dips and gains from the new system on the change over, but unbuffed I am still healing myself for 9k+ and getting a massive bubble of the same size. This also scales with increases to incoming heals like Vamp Blood and Guardian Spirit. I'm in love with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Vengeance - Increases attack power by a percentage of damage taken, up to a maximum of a percentage of the character's health. Hasn't actually worked properly on Alpha yet, and for most heroics is somewhere in the 50 AP range.
    I didn't hawkeye it, but I thought it was working for me, again, before last nights build.


    Runic Empowerment is golden, in tier 1 Frost. For 5 points it gives you a 40% chance on use of RS, FS, and DC to instantly regenerate a random rune. Unfortunately, it has also been broken, only refreshing the appearance of the rune, but not making it available. With RS still being a 20 RP cost and an instant (meaning you won't be hitting DC unless you want the ranged threat utility), expect this to be a very big and convenient deal to have runes available to not get caught in any blackouts.

    At last check, threat is broken, and DK tanks are gods with all their new survival tools. Please don't jump out of your skin yet about it, there will be plenty of new fixes, adjustments, and major balances to come, right now Blizz is busy enough just getting all the content plugged in to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
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    I know it's early, and there's LOTS to be done, but the removal of anticipation mildly concerns me. Paladins and warriors still get +5% parry/dodge. DKs didnt get that parry, i know. We got blade barrier (which is good!). Does the removal of the 5% dodge have a large impact, or is it too early to even ask that question?

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    They're *trying* to drop the Anticipation talent for everyone. DKs never got Deflection (+Parry) because we have Forceful Deflection that converts Str to Parry, and that remains.

    Blade Barrier is a flat damage reducer, not in the same boat, that is balanced with Blood Pres against stances, etc.

    Losing the dodge for all tanks is a step towards reducing Avoidance and removing passive "boring" talents. You'll notice a drop in armor, dodge, and a little gain in health (as a DK) from the changes so far, but in the final balance, don't worry, it all works out in the bigger picture. =)
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  6. #6
    Runic Empowerment - Pretty much a mandatory talent, for any spec (tank or dps, any tree). I'm actually pretty disappointed they are adding in such a "Captain Obvious" talent.

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    Interesting new changes for DKs, including the DPS section. I'll be doing a write up at some point shortly and see where we're heading here.

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    ME AND YOU? USING THE SAME SPECS?!

    I don't even consider the new Hysteria worth mentioning in the same breath. I really miss the old talent for it's utility and easy to get placement. I am very much considering dropping Blood Swarm and Blood Worms.

    Vengeance has "worked" since the very first alpha build for me, I mean it doesn't really work enough to counter the threat problems all the tanks are having right now. The DnD rebalancing was kind of a nightmare for the new instances, especially against classes like boomkins and mages without rogues or hunters. RIP Morbidity.

    Also I love the new tie ins with RP, gives Scent of Blood new life and helps make our rotation a little more dynamic with procs and random occurences.

    However, I don't really like not being able to move up the Unholy / Frost tree very much. It seems like it really hurts multiple varied or creative builds.


    There is a little variance possible, for instance http://www.wowtal.com/#k=3hXL7eaf9-kS0.9gq.deathknight is a possible single target spec, which really makes since anyways since you wont be foregoing DS and Life Shield for IT/PS and a free blood boil.
    Who knows, just hope they redesign lower end unholy and frost to add some flavor.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 07-01-2010 at 09:46 AM.

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    When I saw the first DK pass I was amazed, the shear amount of cooldowns you guys have now is mind blowing. DKs are probably in the best position of any of the 4 tanks (at least on paper if/once everything is fully implemented and working)

    p.s. should this not be in the beta forum?



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    I'll move it there. And yeah, lots of awesome cooldowns, hell even the blood worm one can be timed if there are specific spikes of damage we can expect.

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    What do you guys think of this change to Pestilence?

    Spreads existing Blood Plague and Frost Fever infections from your target to all other enemies within 10 yards. Diseases spread this way deal 50% of normal damage.
    Groingnasher of (EU) Quel'Thalas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    However, I don't really like not being able to move up the Unholy / Frost tree very much. It seems like it really hurts multiple varied or creative builds.
    I made a thread for that very purpose a few weeks back. I would love to see some talents that fit somehow synergistically with Blood in Frost and Unholy. It would be really cool if there were three sort of minor variations where you go heavy into Blood (like we did), or get different flavors for being a Frost secondary or Unholy secondary. We'll see if that happens. We're still running the first pass of DK talents with only slight tweaks. Paladins and Locks (or Mages I *think*) haven't even gotten their first passes yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    I'll move it there. And yeah, lots of awesome cooldowns, hell even the blood worm one can be timed if there are specific spikes of damage we can expect.
    Are you sure you mean that? It is fully passive. Worms spawn randomly on auto-swings, gorge themselves, and pop when they see fit. It looks like it will be an awesome random heal (which some people will love and some will loathe because it is random).

    I'm actually seeing several talents that could be very strong choices. It would be cool to have appealing alternate choices though.


    Quote Originally Posted by bondetamp View Post
    What do you guys think of this change to Pestilence?
    At first I was a little put out by it, since it spoils the art of disease juggling. That said, I've come to appreciate that it doesn't change a whole lot. Diseases are already a pretty small part of your damage/threat; not having as much is inconvenient, but the express desire is for less group tanking, so when it matters you won't really miss the extra tick size. It will be a nerf on DPS, primarily, to not let diseases scale outrageously in the occasional larger group pulls (ARGGGHHH WHELPS!).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
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  13. #13
    Simply adding CDs to blood is a little concerning for me. Sure, it will be fun to be a DK tank, but the nerf bat will just swing around to us quickly if the 3 other class/specs are left in the dust. If you look at our CDs today, and compare them to Cataclysm, we gain:
    - Bone Shield
    - +20% avoidance CD in DRW
    - Blood worm heal (probably weak since it is uncontrollable)

    I'd probably drop one or two of these and put back in the Anticipation talent, for the sake of better tank balancing if nothing else. It would be nice to avoid another rollercoaster of tank balancing changes in Cataclysm.

    DK crit immunity right now is a 2 talent point throw-away. I had thought they were going to bake that into talents tanks actually took, but they seem to be putting them on traditionally optional talents (DK tanks never took IBP, Warriors taking Safeguard was "optional" up until people starting on LK).

    We can still get morbidity if we want, something like a 53/5/18 build might be feasible for aoe tanking and picking up the DPS buff in unholy. That depends on DnD even being viable as an aoe threat hold anymore. If not, I would expect most DK tanks to get at least 11 into Unholy to get the haste buff for a member of the group.

    I still think it would be more appropriate to put the AP reduction as a secondary affect of applying Blood Plague, such that a PS or a Pest will apply it to single or aoe targets. Having to pop Blood Boil feels clunky, especially at the opportunity cost of a Heart Strike. Having Heart Strike be 3 targets, and Blood Boil being an aoe is even a little awkward given they are both the same rune type.

    They seem to be nerfing all aoe by 50% across the board, so the pestilence changes aren't that surprising but certainly are not intuitive.

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    for the people with DPS dks that got the weapons to DW then hit up my thread so we can see which spec does better numbers.


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    It's too early to talk about tanking balance or DPS really. The other classes haven't been touched and their have been a lot of issues with this Alpha (more so than the TBC and Vanilla alphas, as far as I remember) from bugs to balance, so I wouldn't worry about anything in the long run.
    Just be happy that all the changes so far are in a positive direction overall.

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    As much as I want to agree with you, when I open my feral tree and look at the designer notes "Design completion (1st pass): Feral 100%" even though it has a TBR talent still (for those who do not know TBR does not mean to be renamed, that is NNF- name not final, TBR is to be redesigned or to be removed)



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    S'why I'm hesitant to do any theorycrafting on the sole purpose that there are too many changes and I'm not on this damn beta to test out. /grumble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnbreaker View Post
    Simply adding CDs to blood is a little concerning for me. Sure, it will be fun to be a DK tank, but the nerf bat will just swing around to us quickly if the 3 other class/specs are left in the dust. If you look at our CDs today, and compare them to Cataclysm, we gain:
    - Bone Shield
    - +20% avoidance CD in DRW
    - Blood worm heal (probably weak since it is uncontrollable)
    Right now the abilities are there were just tossed over. Bone Shield was just copy-pasted. There has been very little eye paid to balance, these are largely just to get them in the *location* they want. Scale will be determined later on, as probably will functionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnbreaker View Post
    I'd probably drop one or two of these and put back in the Anticipation talent, for the sake of better tank balancing if nothing else. It would be nice to avoid another rollercoaster of tank balancing changes in Cataclysm.
    They learned the lesson that they shouldn't make tanks too reliant on CDs and squishy in between with DKs in Naxx. Trust them to remember the key lessons, and it will work out in the design when it is more developed.

    Anticipation is boring and passive. That is being removed for its own sake and has no significance on the state of CDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnbreaker View Post
    DK crit immunity right now is a 2 talent point throw-away. I had thought they were going to bake that into talents tanks actually took, but they seem to be putting them on traditionally optional talents (DK tanks never took IBP, Warriors taking Safeguard was "optional" up until people starting on LK).
    This is fair enough, but only for DKs and Warriors at the moment. It may change. This is only the first pass. There are worse things, these talents don't actually hurt you, they just provide different functionality that tanks didn't take before (for Warriors more than DKs).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnbreaker View Post
    We can still get morbidity if we want, something like a 53/5/18 build might be feasible for aoe tanking and picking up the DPS buff in unholy. That depends on DnD even being viable as an aoe threat hold anymore. If not, I would expect most DK tanks to get at least 11 into Unholy to get the haste buff for a member of the group.
    DnD remains a strong threat tool by design. Right now all threat is wonky, but that is for lack of attention yet. Unless they drop the huge threat multiplier, it will remain a tank skill, but with the location of Morbidity you won't rely on it for high-uptime. Don't shed tears for that though, since your desire to reach it is based on the current content you are used to. The express desire from Blizz is to *not* just continue that, and instead have smaller more tactical pulls where you will not want to tank everything until you out-gear it.

    Personally, I'm not pining for Morbidity, and I'm not going to be reaching for Unholy Frenzy to provide it to my raid. It isn't THAT good to warrant 10 pts with meh value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnbreaker View Post
    I still think it would be more appropriate to put the AP reduction as a secondary affect of applying Blood Plague, such that a PS or a Pest will apply it to single or aoe targets. Having to pop Blood Boil feels clunky, especially at the opportunity cost of a Heart Strike. Having Heart Strike be 3 targets, and Blood Boil being an aoe is even a little awkward given they are both the same rune type.
    Again you are looking at it through the eyes of current content and design. Try wrapping your head around it as a new design. BB is now Demo Shout with damage (suck it Warrior/Bears!). When you play with the new rune system, it does NOT feel clunky to use BB when you need the Damage Rdx.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    As much as I want to agree with you, when I open my feral tree and look at the designer notes "Design completion (1st pass): Feral 100%" even though it has a TBR talent still (for those who do not know TBR does not mean to be renamed, that is NNF- name not final, TBR is to be redesigned or to be removed)
    First pass is first pass. Like writing a book. You get the major elements where you want them, and get a sense for where talents are in general for different specs (each tree and PvP considerations). Later passes involve reworks so they really fit, talent point allocations with mind for how players will build into trees, and tuning of values to make sure they balance well and fit roughly appropriate allocations.

    I think of the 1st passes like painting a mountain by the silhouette first. Later attention will give it the right shading, nooks, and crannies.


    Definitely WAY too early to any sort of crafting on DPS for the sake of long-term guidance. It might be worth doing for Blizzard's sake later on so they can see how players will take the design elements, but I'm sure they have their own very elaborate math and modeling that will come into play when they actually try to balance these numbers.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    It's too early to talk about tanking balance or DPS really.
    I actually think it is the perfect time to talk about it. The DK tanking tree has just been re-arranged, and the other 3 tank trees are not likely to get an overhaul of the same magnitude as the DK, and I kind of doubt they will even change that much anyway. The tank balance roller-coaster of WotLK is not something I really want to see repeated in Cataclysm, and the beta is the best time to offer balance feedback and make major changes (b/c they don't make these kind of changes after it goes live).

  20. #20
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    It is too early because they have not even started to seriously consider balancing the values yet.

    There are plenty of things to discuss right now, talents included, but matters of this spec is doing X dps and that spec is doing Y dps are not for now. That time will come down the road.
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    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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