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Thread: Tanking BiS 3.3.3

  1. #21
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    Ya, you can't put in just the EH calc for the piece of gear, there are a ton of different modifiers that go into it, an armor value that low using the M = A/(A+K) equation would make that small amount of armor almost worthless especially when compared to the small amount of HP on the item.

    Basically 11armor ~ 1 stam. 800/11 ~ 72 stam vs 55 stam. Ony ring wins.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by amity View Post
    My apologies that refers purely to the 264 Grinning vs Crafted. The superior stat budget of the 277 grinnings make them BiS and would be the source of expertise over Cataclysmic and tier legs.
    Gotcha, I didn't grasp the context at first.
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    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  3. #23
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    added to gear compilation sticky, good work amity, just keep cleaning it up as suggestions roll in =]

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  4. #24
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    i would put the cat above the blightborne, even the heroic version. The extra 1100 armour puts you with 100 stamina vs 32 stamina and dodge. The Cat pretty much should just be replaced with the 264 t10 if you want 4 piece, becuase as you will said we are not replacing the pillars, and the 277 t10 which is better.

    also 2 links to read about pala BIS in 3.3
    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic - very comprehensive gearing list
    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic - the discussion on that very list.

    You should read up on the discussion as there is some nice solid math as to why items are ranked as they are.
    Last edited by lucem; 06-15-2010 at 10:24 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    I currently have 52400 hp and 33800 armor unbuffed.

    My EH is : 158869

    Add 55 stamina/550hp ->160537

    Let's cancel the 550 hp and add 800 armor -> 161389

    Looks fine to me.
    That's fine but it's not 55 stam it's a difference of 335 EH between the two rings. I'll take the 3350 HP.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    That's fine but it's not 55 stam it's a difference of 335 EH between the two rings. I'll take the 3350 HP.
    You're not using the calculator correctly.

  7. #27
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    Are weapons and shields going to make it into the list as well?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Ya, you can't put in just the EH calc for the piece of gear, there are a ton of different modifiers that go into it, an armor value that low using the M = A/(A+K) equation would make that small amount of armor almost worthless especially when compared to the small amount of HP on the item.

    Basically 11armor ~ 1 stam. 800/11 ~ 72 stam vs 55 stam. Ony ring wins.
    You're right about needing to use the calc with more then an item in isolation. When I use my raw numbers from the armory, the Ony ring is worth 1106 more EH. Eventually, I'll learn to avoid these math discussion. It makes no sense to me how this can be unless the armor scales up so that as you add more it compounds its EH benefit.

  9. #29
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    Armor actually scales down as you get more... sorta (if you haven't, take a glance at the why we do what we do threat in theorycrafting for the full explanation). The important thing is that armor scales as you get more hit points. The problem is that such a small amount of armor is such a small reduction that it would be almost inconsequential, let me try to demonstrate.

    In a fraction, as the numerator (top part) increases and/or the denominator decreases, then number gets bigger.

    Lim x = infinity
    x -> inf 1

    Lim 1 = infinity
    x -> 0 x

    And conversly the opposite is true, as the numerator gets smaller and the demoniator gets larger, the number approaches zero


    Lim 1 = 0
    x -> inf x

    Lim x = 0
    x -> 0 1


    Hopefully my ascii equations look/format alright, lol. Edit: it doesn't... maybe I'll make some nice pictures when I get home.

    Anyways, the equation for armor reduction is:

    M = A/(A+K)

    K is a coefficient as defined by blizzard based on MOB level and M is the mitigation percent in decimal. A is the armor amount. The K value is 16635 for a level 83 mob. Therefore:

    800/(800+16635) = 0.046 or 4.6% reduction if you have 1500 hit points (roughly what the ring gives you) then that's only 1572.3 EHP, so only like 7 stamina worth of EHP.

    BUT when you multiply all this up, as A -> infinity and becomes significantly greater than 16635, and you get more hit points, armor becomes far more valuable in terms of EHP than it does at such low hit point levels.

    Kinda fuzzy and I don't think I organized it well, but hopefully this kinda gets the idea across as to why you have to use your full stats in an EHP calculator, not just plug in the item.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    added to gear compilation sticky, good work amity, just keep cleaning it up as suggestions roll in =]
    Cheers! Yes more will keep coming, and to answer a Dreador's question, more to come: weapons (eep last word forum debates), shields enchants, gemming and their rules of thumb and more debates about the practicality of ony25 ring!
    ...just got exams right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by lucem View Post
    i would put the cat above the blightborne, even the heroic version. The extra 1100 armour puts you with 100 stamina vs 32 stamina and dodge. The Cat pretty much should just be replaced with the 264 t10 if you want 4 piece, becuase as you will said we are not replacing the pillars, and the 277 t10 which is better.
    Notice the word "or" in there. Blight is intended for pallies who just want to straight soak, but to put you at ease I'll swap the two around. Though I do personally agree that Cat is 2nd BiS, I had to try take an unbaised approach.
    Last edited by amity; 06-15-2010 at 09:19 PM. Reason: spelling

  11. #31
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    Weapons and shields up, currently exluding pvp choices; pve raiders shouldn't feel the need to take up pvp extensively to attain a peice of loot. That being said I'm still flexible and if anyone can present a strong enough arguement I'll throw it up there.

    Unsure as to Bloodvenoms place, if you're after threat it would be higher. Have added 7 stamina as a conversion from Agility to Amor to Stamina and then obviously some dodge as well.
    I'll leave this up to anyone who can provide the theoretical backing of it's EH compare with those around it and how important the threat is.

    Please do not kick a fuss over the relevance of Last Words healing proc, if you cared about overhealing that much you should be specced into Divinity.

    Still keen to hear people thoughts on trinkets.

    Should be doing Enchants and Gemming soon.

  12. #32
    I won't get into the 11 armor=1 stam because it is in a way incorrect when there is anything other than 100% physical dmg. However in the boot slot above the hit being a more attractive stat which I do not agree with in any way, the dual blue sockets provide another 9 stam when being gemmed correctly which is the main reason the order you have is correct(remember in a properly stacked raid and with a correctly glyphed prot paladin an ally member only needs 5% spell hit to be taunt capped while horde needs 6% wo easily attainable hit is not a consideration). Also everyone should keep in mind as the icecrown buff goes up so does the value of your stamina as it scales. Finally with the stam trinkets CSK is better than heroic scarab or vitality 12 more stam and the cooldown is much more powerful, especially when you are working it into a soul reaper map for heroic LK p2 and 3.

  13. #33
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    I'm kinda wondering about which two pieces of tier gear would be the best for getting the 2pc set bonus and if it was worth it to get the 4pc bonus or just fill in the other slots with non set gear. Also, would it also be better to get gear that isn't technically better in terms of GS and ilvl but would still be better than another time. ex. ilvl 264 gear vs 277 gear.

  14. #34
    The gloves and Chest are the two you want, you will not be replacing them they are hands down BiS on their ilvl the only arguement would be the 251 item vs the 264 OS badge items. The 4 pc is situational, you end up trading EH for the on use, the only time it is really practical is at the 277 level where the trade off is minimal. Thus for the 4pc it comes down to the Bonegaurd Commander's Pauldron's or the Pillars of Might, which raises a few other things, in most cases the best bet would be getting the tier shoulder's, but then you run incredibly low on expertise(once you trade out the grinning greatskull for the heroic RS boots) and run even more of parry haste gib from heroic hallion and sindragosa. Tank gib still happens to our other tank(despite heroic sindragosa being farm content) from time to time in p3 since he feels 26 expertise is more than enough, while on the other hand I toss on the 264 tier legs and get up to 35, and have half the attacks parried he does. Phase 3 heroic hallion is going to be the same thing especially if he is shifted more towards your realm. If you tank LK then run the tier shoulders with the pillars, if you are the add tank/soaker the line becomes slightly more blurred as the EH you lose will make no difference in that fight, while the expertise may make up for it in other places. Luckily for me conq tokens do not exist so I haven't made the choice yet, I think I will be running the tier legs at 277 for sindragosa and Hallion and 3 pc for everything else.

  15. #35
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    I object to anybody attempting to try for 4pcT10. 12% dodge on DP is absolute garbage. DP already needs to be timed for when it falls off due to gaps in the fight between phases, whereas Enrage, Bloodrage or Bloodtap can all realistically be saved as a CD.

    Of the 3 plate tanks, paladins are the ones most inclined to stop at 2pcT10 for the set bonus, 4pcT10 is only if you have 4pc277.

  16. #36
    12% dodge is not garbage, it is a situational cooldown when coupled with other minor Cooldown's becomes a major CD. Anyone who objects to using the 4pc obviously is not on the edge of progression. If DP is falling off, on heroic LK then you are either slow at target switching, working on phase 3(which means the hardest part of the fight is over), or you have absolutely insane dps that kills ragings with 15 second gaps. The CD when tanking LK is much more important than the 3% dmg reduction because you have bigger issues if that 3% reduction is causing a death outside of SR.

    Ok lets look at this you are tanking LK on Heroic, so you do not have another tank, making multiple minor cooldowns into a major cooldown becomes needed or you just will not have enough. Your 2 trinkets won't save you, glyphed hand of salv won't save you, 4pc won't save you. Now you combine all of them and you are taking 20% less dmg, have the shadow resist from the fang for the initial SR, AD coming into play, absorbing 6400 dmg, and you have 12% dodge, thus it is now a viable major cooldown that will be up for all of phase two and the majority of phase 3.

    Not to mention why in the world would you stop at 2? The tier helm is a much better item than the broken ram skull, 4 more stam and more avoidance.

  17. #37
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    12% dodge is meh at best. DKs & Druids got damage reduction, and even warriors got damage absorb. Can I dodge magic damage? Hell no.

    Having said that, 12% dodge on DP is very bad. Also, your 3% is always up as long as DP is up, but the 12% only kicks in when you press it, even when it's up. You just aren't gonna convince me it's comparable to what other tanks got.

    Paladin 2pc is very good, i just object to 4 pc. Ideally, it's helm and shoulders if you don't have 277s, otherwise the
    badge chest 264 > Tier 264, just as pillars > Tier 264 and Kraken > Tier 264.

  18. #38
    It is not comparable to what the other tanks get, I have never said that. No you are not going to dodge magic but please tell me where the the threat for tank gib on heroic LK? On heroic Hallion? On heroic Sindragosa? And what is the type of dmg you will see. I will not divulge into the 4pc arguement past that, frankly the facts are out there, go and armory every one of the world's top prot paladin's, then object to them how your knowledge is better and they are all wrong.

    This is a BiS thread so anything that has to do with 264s is with the intention of it becoming a 277 and at the 277 level the head, chest and gloves are clearly the most superior item available. While the Boneguard commander pauldrons are from the easiest hard mode and better than the tier item. Making an arguement at a 264 level makes no sense at all.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledknight View Post
    This is a BiS thread so anything that has to do with 264s is with the intention of it becoming a 277 and at the 277 level the head, chest and gloves are clearly the most superior item available. While the Boneguard commander pauldrons are from the easiest hard mode and better than the tier item. Making an arguement at a 264 level makes no sense at all.
    Well, you are the one who contradicted yourself earlier by comparing a 251 vs a 264, stay consistent. Either it's a BiS, or more accurately, a list of options at high end raiding. At the end of the day, i'd only take the tier 277 chest and gloves as well, I wouldn't take the 277 tier helm over Ram's and I certainly wouldn't chase after the 4 pc bonus with the shoulders. Really, 12% dodge is about as helpful as the stats gains from the off-tier pieces.

    The 277 pieces, with exception to pillars, are only better than the 264s through sheer budget stats.

  20. #40
    You are correct, I did it in response to a question, but touche good sir. BiS list discussion's kinda suck atm and they really need to have a 10 man and 25 man version, because if all you did was 10 man's I don't know if I would even bother with any tier(maybe the shoulders).

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