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Thread: UH Tanks

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid View Post
    It was a whole differend story back on WotLK release.

    I'v managed to reroll to DK, when expansion went live. So three Blood DKs a frost DK and me Unholy tank managed to do Ramps and blood furnace. Pretty much soloed Onyxia40 four times with naxx10+heroic gear, blood/unholy specc.

    On this time respecced like around 40 times just test and learn each DK tanking specc, while noticed even if I spam death strike and being on Unholy tanking.

    Managed never lose threat, even thought giving some stress to healers, but generally at that point it seemed DKs were more stressful to healers compaired to other variable classes.

    Unholy tanking, never was the on point where it replaced a good frost or blood tank. But Unholy tanks were the easiest to tank on while people had gogogogo attitude and cared less about CCing, like reminding me TBC while trade channel was filled, "Last spot to X heroic, only mage needed for CC."
    but the thing is, unholy WAS the best tank spec at wrath release. Pre-Ulduar it blew the others away, that's why it got nerfed into dirt and has never recovered.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYanger View Post
    Community ideals are based on the actual ideal performance demonstrated within the game.
    Not particularly. If I had to put a number to it, about 10% is based on actual performance, 20% is second-hand people watching it perform (usually with a bias that affects perception), and 70% is people who talked to someone who read about how that spec performed (and it's utter rubbish, in case you were wondering).

    Popular opinion is pretty flimsy in most any case that isn't clearly cut, and well documented.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  3. #23
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    There are enough mathematical and common sense reasons to thoroughly dismiss the idea of a progression tank using UH though. I think that was the point.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    There are enough mathematical and common sense reasons to thoroughly dismiss the idea of a progression tank using UH though. I think that was the point.
    Practical reasons to make other choices, but none of them actually void Unholy as an option. It is just a matter of whether you want to min/max or not, and if so what your threshold is.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Practical reasons to make other choices, but none of them actually void Unholy as an option. It is just a matter of whether you want to min/max or not, and if so what your threshold is.
    Which is I think all he was saying...
    Unholy is very much the min, Blood is very much the max, and Frost is in between. Serious progression tanks have their choice made for them already.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    Blood has a ridiculous EH advantage over the other DK tanking specs.. and other tanking classes. They also happen to self-heal extremely well and the 4-set bonus works very well on them (do frost/UH dks even have enough talents for blood tap and it's improvements?).
    Yes they do, you can get Spell Deflection and Veteran of the Third war as well;

    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0Eroc...c0t0ucR:Mod0mc

  7. #27
    Show me an UH tank trying for ICC progression and I'll show you a bad DK. I mean if you wanna screw around for heroics and have fancy bones flying around you that's great but in an endgame raid setting it just does not belong.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redefined View Post
    Show me an UH tank trying for ICC progression and I'll show you a bad DK. I mean if you wanna screw around for heroics and have fancy bones flying around you that's great but in an endgame raid setting it just does not belong.
    Don't make sweeping generalizations. They aren't helping anyone.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Don't make sweeping generalizations. They aren't helping anyone.
    It hurts your entire raid group to be UH in a 25 man raid assuming you have the UH buff elsewhere. That's really the only reason or excuse to be UH in ICC.

  10. #30
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    I've been running Unholy in ICC10 for the caster damage buff for our group, and it works fine for 10, and normal 25. It has been very much more pleasant to use since the IcyTouch buff for initial aggro. I would be hesitant to use it for 25 HM boss tanking though due to the clunkiness of BS usage verses having the security and ease of Vamp, and of course the extra HP of Blood. With the current ICC buff you could probably get away with it if you were well geared though. I used Blood all though out Ulduar and Toc so maybe I'm a bit biased. lol If my DK was still my main and geared I'd be game to give it a try for sure just to see how it worked. I've never been one to listen to the haters. =]

    Not to derail the thread, but that is one thing I will really miss about DK tanking in Caty, the ability to mess around with different builds. That was one of my favorite things about the class.

  11. #31
    From my own longstanding Unholy Tank experience (I respecced shortly after Blood was announced as the Cata-tankspec, when a friend told me the Bloodworms were fixed and finally go behind the boss), I can add this to the overall tankpower of it:

    Unholy has it's moments. AMZ can be a major lifesaver at the right moment, as tough as it is to use. Lana'thel, Festergut, Rotface, Putricide can all be good moments to use it and save the raid a wipe. Like Satorri said if you use it as a 2m-CD AMS you're wasting it, it's strength is the near-infinite absorb since it will always eat at least 1 effect from everyone if they get hit at the same time.
    At the same time, it is very weak due to it's long CD. Chances are that if you have to save a group with AMZ, you'll have issues which make you need it more than every 120 seconds.
    Don't get me wrong, I turned wipes into wins with this, it is that powerful. But very rarely can it keep a raid afloat on it's own.

    Magic Absorption can keep up with 3% Avoidance / 3% Sta IMO, it's lower base-survivability gets balanced out by the slightly better spike-protection.

    At ~25% raidbuffed crit I started to notice (that was with Glyph of Icy Touch for my third glyph btw) my AE threat. That was early ICC10 heroic. I did use Crit/Sta gems in yellow sockets where I wanted the socketbonus for this, however.

    Bone Shield is the king of tree-1m-cooldowns, still. It's flexibility is it's strength. You can have it on (and cooled down) when you run in, affording the healers 4-8 bones of easier healing to move into positions, you can use it as a baseline damage reduction ala UA, but also as an emergency move ala VB.



    However: Unholy lacks tankmoves. Consider that the other trees have extra tanktalents and you already notice a slight discrepancy. This used to be balanced by Bone Shield's extreme uptime (due to some special moves being reduces but not using up stacks), but with Icecrown/Ruby Radiance this has falled off the grid. Unholy has no 3-point procced Tanktalent, it's timer-improvement (AMS) is made ~worthless by the cap on total absorb not scaling by 25%, and it lacks a second passive survivability increase to offset WotN/IFP.
    In other words I see:
    • Bone Shield - Vampiric Blood - Unbreakable Armor (not of comparable strength of use, but of comparable concept)
    • 6% Magic Reduction - 3% Avoidance - 3% HP
    • +25% AMS - Better IBF - Improved Rune Tap
    And then where Unholy loses out:
    • ??? - 2% Mitigation - WotN
    • ??? - Acclimation - Spell Parry

    Disclaimer: I am aware the talents are not balanced on a 1v1-level in the comparison above. I'm comparing them on a conceptual level, "passive damage reduction", "timer improvement" and so on.

    In short, I think it's a good tanking tree for what it has, but it is lacking 2 tanktalents to keep up with Blood and Frost. Since the changes for Cata were announced it was obvious they would not fix it now so I went over to Blood - as a healer I like a heal-heavy tankspec anyways, I <3 <3 it by now, Rune Tap is ma precious!
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  12. #32
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    All of this discussion is kind of academic tbh, dont forget Blood is gonna be the only tank spec , when the next round of content that matters hits, so may aswell get used to blood now (or not, since blood may be different in cata). Right now, its quite clear no one will tank heroic halion in Unholy, they will choose blood simply for the superioer EH, for all other content (oustide of the obvious anomallys) ,you can go ahead and experiment with generally accepeted inferior specs to get some kind on self percieved benefit :P (hehe)

  13. #33
    Rune Tap is very useful in my experience. It's an off GCD instant 20% hp heal available every 30s, which double dips on the ICC buff. I generally bind this with a death strike in a macro. When I know there will be some kind of spike damage, I will save runes and use this macro immediately after the damage income, which heals me 35% hp immediately ( 44% in ICC, and 59% if I also use VB beforehand). I just can't understand those people who are saying Rune Tap is always overheal. It's a heal you could manage. If it's overheal, then it's your fault that you are not using it the right way, not the fault of the amazing talent itself.
    There are many situations that you could use Rune Tap well. When fighting LK I always use this after Soulreaper goes off, which is a great relief on the healers. I also use this after Sindragosa's breath/blistering cold and Festergut's pungent blight. In fact I use it whenever my health drops low( there're many addons which could inform you this). It's really a wonderful skill. Anytime it's up, I feel I'm quite safe. It's really seldom for a proper geared tank to be one-shot nowadays. You always die in the time gap of a spike damage and a big heal. Rune Tap can fill this gap and change death to life, as long as you're paying enough attention.
    If you have played healers, you will know that instant heals are quite valuable. Healers don't do well on moving. This is the time DK self healing really shines. When people are despising Rune Tap, they always assume that in a half second a big heal will land on them. But what if it doesn't? There are always those situations that things might go wrong. When fighting Deathwhisper, it's not uncommon that one tank healer is dodging spirits while the rest are mind-controlled. When fighting LK, it's not uncommon that one tank healer is grabbed while the rest are dodging defile. When fighting Sindragosa, it's not uncommon that one tank healer is frozen while the rest are targets of unbound magic, etc, etc, etc... This is the reason why I like DK tanking. You could heal yourself if necessary. If played right, it could turn a wipe to a kill. If not, it's just 99% overheal, as someone insists on.

    For progression tanking, it would be hard for me to consider any spec other than blood. When I was progression tanking LK some months ago, I tried frost several times and failed miserably. From then on I've been using blood for every serious encounter. Every spec seems to be ok on paper for some people, but it does make difference for progression fights. My off spec is an UH tanking spec, but the main reason I'm using this is for increased mount speed.

    And talking about buffs, a modified blood spec could easily provide both 10% AP and 20% melee haste buff to raid, with negligible loss of avoidance and threat, like this one
    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0EMqc...soZhxbxVMhzZ0o
    which only gives up 1% avoidance and some threat talents in blood with some threat talents in frost to make up while providing two significant buffs. In fact I've been using this spec for some time. My personal dps drops a bit, but threat doesn't, and this spec works OK for ICC HM.
    Last edited by Superworm; 07-10-2010 at 11:56 AM.

  14. #34
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    I sure miss Unholy tanking in Naxx. Pallies couldn't keep adds off me no matter what they did...

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
    I sure miss Unholy tanking in Naxx. Pallies couldn't keep adds off me no matter what they did...
    It sounds like you miss being OP more than you miss UH tanking. Being overpowered is a bad place for any class. It attracts the marginal players (deathtards) and causes Blizzard to break out the nerk stick on the class.

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