UH Tanks

[Eskodas]

Why does everyone get so fixated on blood as the best spec for tanking? Frost is alright, more traditional tanking, but the best imo is UH, duel wielding to boot!

Why?
Look through the talents, the actual tank talents are few and far between with little impact on gamplay, Blood has 3 decent talents,(WoN, VB & Imp DS) and Frost has 3 (Acc, UA & Imp FP)
My UH spec is 5/17/49 http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...30101203133030
1) I have my ghoul out 24/7, many people say this is a noob move, but having instant access to a 40% hp heal every 2min is just to good to pass on.
2) Physical damage doesn't seem to mean much as u get more gear and slowly move to unhittable / mega high armor, its the magical dmg that hurts and spikes so the pickup talents here help heaps.
3) Bone shield placed just before a hard hit lands is a life saver, 20% less dmg is great and it lasts 3 hits
4) The whole reason that a DK should EVER be allowed into a raid is this buff, Ebon Plaugbringer, 13% more magical damage taken by those effected from ur diseases, that is undoubtable the best buff in the game.
5) Great Rotation/Priority with DnD makin huge threat for you, i usually drop that, then disease up and spread, after i just repeat DnD when off cd and DS inbetween to use those runes(with three diseases my DS heals me the same as Blood does, 15% hp) and unless DnD is down i always hav one blood rune ready for a BB in case of add's, thats the worst failling about dk's is ther ability to quickly pick up add's compared to other class's (charge and swipe ftw), i actually use this same rotation on boss's but i use the spare blood rune if add's not a prob, dual spec'd blood tankin for those pesky boss ones where i cant hit any add's or need extreme 1v1 agro, but remember, u dont hav! to put out as much threat as u can, just gota beat the top dps'r.
6) Why DW? survivabilty, dual 1h tank weps, the only down side is my DS strikes for less, but meh, thats mainly for that sexy heal anyways. If u want to 2h, just drop the Nerves Steal and plug that into Black Ice and grab Gargoyle =D
7) Last but not least, run speed boost, get to the add's faster, get away from boss moves faster, get to mobs with time to spare before dps starts shootin, wow IS a mobile game, this is a great help, just like a Pally should spec for Swift Justice which many seem to neglect

Well, thats why i tank UH, i hav 2 Pally's, 1 Druid and 1 DK, lvling a War atm(can anyone say fun? love er, anoying aoe threat tho, but challange so i hav my fair share of experiances and this is my opinion on wat is the best DK tank tree, tho they are all viable, just UH is better...easier...epic'r...u get the point. Seriously tho, point 4 just rocks my world =D enrage timers = goodbye

[Synistah]

All three specs are very capable of tanking anything that is put infront of you..Unholy and Frost used to be THE tanking specs.

BUT

Frost is generally a better choice for players at lower gear levels. This is solely because of the types of tools that it provides are not as dependant on high stats and gear requirements as some of those Unholy offers. Frost also provides the snap threat that Unholy cannot in the form of Howling Blast, Threat being a key problem to many lower geared tanks.


The reason many people choose Blood these days is because in essence, Effective Health reigns supreme and the other specs simply cannot offer what Blood does in this area.


Unholy's Key talent, Bone Shield really starts to take effect once higher gear levels come in, Higher avoidance means a higher chance of Bone Shield lasting its full duration, As far as your point on the "SUPER BUFF!", Unholy is designed for caster utility, Whereas Frost caters to Melee Utility.. Icy Veins vs Ebon Plague


In essence:

- Frost = Entry level tanking and "user friendly"
- Frost = Melee Utility
- Unholy = Picks up as a tanking spec with slightly more progressed gear setups.
- Unholy = Caster Utility
- Blood = Larger Effective Health pool, Great for geared out tanks
- Blood = Progression Tanking

[Satorri]

Now don't get me wrong. I love DK tanking, and I enjoy Unholy tanking, but let me answer some of your points, and then explain why the popular choices are what they are. =)

Look through the talents, the actual tank talents are few and far between with little impact on gamplay, Blood has 3 decent talents,(WoN, VB & Imp DS) and Frost has 3 (Acc, UA & Imp FP)

Well, actually, if you want to play the counting game, beyond the Extended Holy Trinity (5/5/5 plus Imp IT and Bladed Armor):
Blood has 3 damage reduction/tank enhancing talents (Vamp Blood, WotN, and Spell Deflection)
Frost has 5 tanking talents (Frigid Dreadplate, Imp Frost Pres, Unbreakable Armor, Guile of Gorefiend, and Acclimation)
Unholy has 3 tanking talents (Magic Suppression, Anti-magic Zone, and Bone Shield)

Just looking strictly at it that way, 2 of Unholy's 3 tank talents are magic damage only. Blood also adds self-healing value with Imp DS, Rune Tap, Mark of Blood, and possibly Imp Blood Pres/Bloodworms though those are uncommon. Each tree has talents to match its personal survival bent. Blood is low on mitigation and heavy on self-healing which actually works out to appear like mitigation, with an added safety net if you dip too low (WotN). Frost is high on mitigation/avoidance (small swings from talents mind you at 2/3% but meaningful), which is traditional as you say. Unholy hangs its hat on Bone Shield entirely for physical mitigation. It works, don't mistake, but counting talents is not the way to win an argument.

My UH spec is 5/17/49 http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...30101203133030

You seem to want to educate the people who somehow missed the amazing Unholy tree, so I'll refrain from picking over your talents.

1) I have my ghoul out 24/7, many people say this is a noob move, but having instant access to a 40% hp heal every 2min is just to good to pass on.

Every DK has this ability available every 3 min, you have it 1 min sooner (though many DKs don't use it anyway for absence of mind, or slow reflexes). In the meantime you spent 3 talent points on a pet that does nothing for you as a tank other than being a sacrificial lamb every 2 min, and padding your dps a bit.

2) Physical damage doesn't seem to mean much as u get more gear and slowly move to unhittable / mega high armor, its the magical dmg that hurts and spikes so the pickup talents here help heaps.

Physical and magical damage always matter. They can become less significant as a life/death risk as you out-gear content, but are you spec'ing with the assumption that you *that* significantly outgear what you're running? As for the relative value of magic protection talents, Unholy doesn't have as big an edge as some people might think. 6% passive constant reduction is nice, strong. 100% reduction on AMS is very nice, but not significant when the damage is life threatening (because of the health-based cap on the absorption), it only serves for an overall damage reduction buff for catching more of the little bits over the life of the bubble (not insignificant, but not a big deal for what you're attributing). AMZ is great fun, but using it on yourself is just a nice AMS clone. It is valuable, to be sure, but it is a slight edge, not a stunning one.

Blood has Spell Deflection which averages out to about 9-11% average damage reduction on any direct damage spell (as opposed to periodic). However, it is either much more significant or not there for the times that really matter. In other words, when you're taking a magic hit that could threaten your well-being, and Spell Deflection procs, it cuts that damage in half (where Magic Suppression alone would still only reduce it by 6%). Or it won't proc, but either way if it is life-threatening you will be using AMS anyway and as I said, the 75%/100% won't make a difference since you're pinning the cap of the absorb.

Frost has Acclimation that is generally under-valued. In the fights where you will need the most severe magic protection, spike or otherwise, Acclimation will be stacked and giving you upwards of 30-40% damage reduction against that element. Sindragosa for example, can sustain stacks pretty well, and that is a major buff against the breaths (one of the only outstanding magic spike damages you have to worry about in ICC as a tank).

After all that, though, you will still take, on average, over 70% of your total damage as physical damage. Magic spikes are scary, yes, but anti-magic talents are still situational preparation.

3) Bone shield placed just before a hard hit lands is a life saver, 20% less dmg is great and it lasts 3 hits

4 if you glyph it, which is definitely valuable for coverage. I'd also contend that if you are using Bone Shield like IBF (i.e. as a situational damage reduction, pop-it-when-you-need-it CD, you're losing a lot of its value).

4) The whole reason that a DK should EVER be allowed into a raid is this buff, Ebon Plaugbringer, 13% more magical damage taken by those effected from ur diseases, that is undoubtable the best buff in the game.

It is a *good* buff for people who do magic damage. It is also provided by Boomkin and Warlocks. Unholy DKs have the sole distinction of being able to spread it around more easily. That said, if you have a DPS DK, they can offer the same very easily (and Unholy *is* a popular dps spec).

5) Great Rotation/Priority with DnD makin huge threat for you, i usually drop that, then disease up and spread, after i just repeat DnD when off cd and DS inbetween to use those runes(with three diseases my DS heals me the same as Blood does, 15% hp) and unless DnD is down i always hav one blood rune ready for a BB in case of add's, thats the worst failling about dk's is ther ability to quickly pick up add's compared to other class's (charge and swipe ftw), i actually use this same rotation on boss's but i use the spare blood rune if add's not a prob, dual spec'd blood tankin for those pesky boss ones where i cant hit any add's or need extreme 1v1 agro, but remember, u dont hav! to put out as much threat as u can, just gota beat the top dps'r.

Every spec has strong rotations. I won't pick on the holes in yours because it has little to do with the topic.

6) Why DW? survivabilty, dual 1h tank weps, the only down side is my DS strikes for less, but meh, thats mainly for that sexy heal anyways. If u want to 2h, just drop the Nerves Steal and plug that into Black Ice and grab Gargoyle =D

Again, won't pick on your talent choices. Unholy *can* get away with dual wielding more easily than Blood, but it is a marginal gain in survival stats (using two tank weapons) for a sizeable loss in threat. If you can get away with it, that's fine, but it isn't a superior value. You'd be surprised how much survival value you can actually get out of 2-handed dps weapons (also adding the fact that they have sockets).

7) Last but not least, run speed boost, get to the add's faster, get away from boss moves faster, get to mobs with time to spare before dps starts shootin, wow IS a mobile game, this is a great help, just like a Pally should spec for Swift Justice which many seem to neglect

You can get the same by sacrificing 7 Stam on your boots. The speed isn't quite the same, but it is plenty to get the job done. I see plenty of protadins take PoJ, but if they don't it is likely because they're using the boot enchant I'm talking about.

Why does everyone get so fixated on blood as the best spec for tanking? Frost is alright, more traditional tanking, but the best imo is UH, duel wielding to boot!

So, to answer your first question.

Blood is most popular because it benefits the most from raw health stacking, which is already the most popular way to handle gear. Nothing more complicated than that. But it isn't an unsound choice. Blood is a tanking powerhouse.

[Eskodas]

Ha! well that was thoroughly picked apart, tho i do agree with you on most points, i guess i just like UH most cause no one ever plays it and calls it the noob's tank spec when its thoroughly capable of doing the job, plus imo i die most from RNG, rare is melee like that unless boss, so my aim is to reduce that which is thru UH, Spell Deflect wont proc when it matters, ask Murphy. Thanks for responding to my post tho

[Satorri]

To be sure, there is a general PR stigma with Unholy that is far more severe than is deserved. I've outlined that several times since ICC launched. =)

If you love it, rock it!

[Theotherone]

Of all the specs, Unholy seemed to be the baby thrown out with the bath water during the DK nerf period (it seemed like Bliz had already made the decision that DK's were not going to keep three tank trees). I never really tanked in Unholy during its AoE hey day when Unholy Blight ruled the AoE tank roost - was too into Frost. It seems that when DK's went through the recent buff period Unholy as a tank spec was left to just kind of wither on the vine i.e. the first casualty of the three specs to be subjected to death by ignore since it was going away as a tanking spec. Frost and Blood got some love with the improvements to DW for Frost and increased threat to Imp Icy Touch benefiting both. But I'm really sorry I never did tank as Unholy; maybe I'll mess around with it after we down the LK.

Right now, IMHO, and I tank as a Pally and a DK and my tanking partners are normally a Warrior or a Bear, there is no better AoE tank in the game then a Frost DK - if there's a pack of mobs, they're mine, all mine, DnD, Death Chill, HB, PS, Pest, BB. I going to miss that aspect of Frost in Cat; hope we get to keep HB as a tank spec. Then again maybe AoE tanks will be going the way of the dinosaur in Cat.

In spite of the above, no tank in the game looks better in the Gunship battle then a Bear - they just have the special something that allows them to look good with a rocket strapped to their butt.

[Edgewalker]

Death Strike heals for roughly 25,000 at the moment, Imp. DS is already one of the best "tanking" talents in the blood tree and will be even more valuable at 25 and 30%.

My biggest personal problem with UH is it's overall lower TPS and DPS output and the likelihood you will be doubling up on a buff you almost always have access to anyways. Improved Windfury is the rarest of the buffs, so if I wanted to play a less common DK iteration it would have to be DW Frost.

[Edgewalker]

Right now, IMHO, and I tank as a Pally and a DK and my tanking partners are normally a Warrior or a Bear, there is no better AoE tank in the game then a Frost DK - if there's a pack of mobs, they're mine, all mine, DnD, Death Chill, HB, PS, Pest, BB. I going to miss that aspect of Frost in Cat; hope we get to keep HB as a tank spec. Then again maybe AoE tanks will be going the way of the dinosaur in Cat.
.

Blood DK's are literally just as good at AoE pack threat as Frost DK's in the grand scheme, improved BB's, 15 second DnD, and FU pairs being converted to death runes for more BB's makes AoE tanking easy for every DK class. The WORST of the DK's for AoE tanking in my opinion is easily Unholy DK's... you lack the crit for consistent wandering plagues and the AP for scaling to make a huge difference, and worst of all a viable secondary cooldown like VB/WoTN or UA when you DO have 35 mobs on you.

[Satorri]

The difference between Blood and Frost in AoE threat is usually pace, more than anything else. Frost is good at snapping early, which feels more comfortable.


Unholy DKs are still quite good at AoE threat though, with or without Wandering Plague (and the passive crit buffs with baseline crit is enough to make it nice for packs). Unholy buffed DnD, even more with the 2 pc t10, combined with diseases is strong group threat. Unholy's BBs compete with Bloods, so they're already a leg up there.

[Edgewalker]

Meh, I disagree with UH being as strong overall, but in the end my initial point was that no DK is weak in AOE threat. The only thing that could pull AOE threat off a DK tank is another DK tank.

[Anth3m]

UH tanking is not as good as the other two tree's. It's a solid tree to choose to tank, but it's definitely not as good.

That said, if you're doing non HC ICC then you'll be fine to spec any way you please. I love tanking on my UH tank. It has a lot of fun and flashy talents and Bone Shield just looks cool. It's also just pretty damned easy to tank as UH.

[mavfin]

The difference between Blood and Frost in AoE threat is usually pace, more than anything else. Frost is good at snapping early, which feels more comfortable.

Yeah, my main issue going from Frost tank to Blood tank for AoE was those few seconds after D&D-IT-PS-Pest when you can't do anything but a couple death coils and autoattack till your runes come back. Sure, you can refresh runes if it's really ugly, but that's got a cooldown. Not quite like having howling blast for pickup.

[hobgoblins]

Satorri said "Every DK has this ability available every 3 min, you have it 1 min sooner (though many DKs don't use it anyway for absence of mind, or slow reflexes). In the meantime you spent 3 talent points on a pet that does nothing for you as a tank other than being a sacrificial lamb every 2 min, and padding your dps a bit."

assuming the ghoul is not taking damage the casting paths are as follows:

No perma ghoul - summon ghoul, sac ghoul. wait for 3 min. minimum.
Perma ghoul - sac ghoul, summon ghoul, wait till you need health..sac ghoul, wait for( 2 min. - time you waited)

The second version is faster and since this is a panic heal the delay in getting it cast without a perm ghoul is the difference
between life(unlife?) and death/overheal.

The second version gives you a second sac available quickly.

(been a while since i played my dk so i might have the cooldown sequence off a bit. )

[gacktt]

Blood has a ridiculous EH advantage over the other DK tanking specs.. and other tanking classes. They also happen to self-heal extremely well and the 4-set bonus works very well on them (do frost/UH dks even have enough talents for blood tap and it's improvements?).

[Illidra]

Blood also adds self-healing value with Imp DS, Rune Tap, Mark of Blood, and possibly Imp Blood Pres/Bloodworms though those are uncommon.

In the current state of the game i personally find rune tap to be a meh talent, naturally as gear scales you get get some pretty insane heals out of it, i used to advocate its use but now i jsut cant be bothered because 99% of the time i find it ends up as overheal or makign my healers overheal.

the main healing of a dk comes from deathstrike and satorri i think you've forgotten to mention that DS heals for the same in an unholy spec as it does in blood due to 3 diseases equating the same heal as the improved ds talent.

[swelt]

I think you could make a cogent argument for an unholy (or frost) offtank in a raid, especially a 10 man where buff synergies make a significant difference. I don't think there can be any doubt that blood is superior for the raid MT role. And of course, in a few months this debate will be irrelevant when Cataclysm makes blood the single tank tree.

[Satorri]

but in the end my initial point was that no DK is weak in AOE threat.

And on that, we agree. =)

UH tanking is not as good as the other two tree's. It's a solid tree to choose to tank, but it's definitely not as good.

Opinion =/= Fact. There are a lot of invisible classifications to make that a true statement. Things like, "I think," "The ones I've seen," "According to so-and-so's math," "When I tried it," etc.

The second version gives you a second sac available quickly.

The trick is there are variables that make it hard to assume. You're assuming that the non-talented DK doesn't have their ghoul up in preparation/regularly, that the perma-ghoul talented DK *does*, and that the perma-ghoul doesn't die (generally a fair assumption, with Night of the Dead as it is). A savvy DK could have the Ghoul ready for when it is most important. Still, the fact remains that you are spending 3 talent points for the possibility of a slightly more frequent big heal. I'm all for healing, but I feel crunched enough on getting all the talents I want without spending 3 talent points to use almost entirely on Death Pact.

In the current state of the game i personally find rune tap to be a meh talent, naturally as gear scales you get get some pretty insane heals out of it, i used to advocate its use but now i jsut cant be bothered because 99% of the time i find it ends up as overheal or makign my healers overheal.

the main healing of a dk comes from deathstrike and satorri i think you've forgotten to mention that DS heals for the same in an unholy spec as it does in blood due to 3 diseases equating the same heal as the improved ds talent.

1.) 90% of the people who dismiss Rune Tap are not usually accustom to using it. I still use it heavily in my ICC runs, it allows the healers to focus elsewhere, have some insurance coverage (i.e. I rarely ever get a "I couldn't do anything" burst), or better still, reduce the need for healers so we can swap people to dps and make things faster.

2.) Imp DS heals the same as Unholy with 3 diseases. Yes. In the past the issue was the Imp DS does not make the healing better, it makes it a worthwhile threat tool. As Unholy your DS hits for peanuts. If you don't get a decent margin on the effectiveness of the heal (which apparently you don't need), it does not threat for 2 runes. *That* is the reason that Imp DS is important, and why Unholy doesn't make the same use of DS that Blood does. That said, it is a bit antiquated now because you can make-up for just about any sloppy threat if you abuse the bonus threat on IT.

I don't think there can be any doubt that blood is superior for the raid MT role.

I only agree within the context of the community ideals and functionalities. =) Again, there are a series of assumptions that are taken as bank by the community, this one in particular, that makes that an unavoidable conclusion. But really, I'm just whacking a hornet's nest there, so maybe we should just avoid that discussion, ha ha.

[TheYanger]

Community ideals are based on the actual ideal performance demonstrated within the game. The notion of unholy tanking being fine is like saying Subtlety is a good dps spec for a rogue, sure you can spec it and it's not like you do nothing, but it is demonstratably worse than the other available options, what more are you seeking to hear? Less health, less damage mitigation, less self-healing, less threat. I'd like to see any of that refuted, otherwise why coddle people. Yes, they can do what they want and that's fine, but it seems like you're arguing against blood just to argue it and it's a little silly imo.

[Paranoid]

It was a whole differend story back on WotLK release.

I'v managed to reroll to DK, when expansion went live. So three Blood DKs a frost DK and me Unholy tank managed to do Ramps and blood furnace. Pretty much soloed Onyxia40 four times with naxx10+heroic gear, blood/unholy specc.

On this time respecced like around 40 times just test and learn each DK tanking specc, while noticed even if I spam death strike and being on Unholy tanking.

Managed never lose threat, even thought giving some stress to healers, but generally at that point it seemed DKs were more stressful to healers compaired to other variable classes.

Unholy tanking, never was the on point where it replaced a good frost or blood tank. But Unholy tanks were the easiest to tank on while people had gogogogo attitude and cared less about CCing, like reminding me TBC while trade channel was filled, "Last spot to X heroic, only mage needed for CC."

[Edgewalker]

It's really a moot point still though, especially considering what the new talent trees look like in Alpha. The talents are all smashed together enough that everyone will have a little frost, UH, and blood in their life.