The Weekly Marmot -- Keyboard Turning

[Mhoram]

I do wish there was a left-hander that made some of these videos. It's very easy to say "just use WASD like everybody else does, but it's really not that simple. Right-handers play WoW (and other games) the same way they use their keyboards and mice everyday. Lefties have to pretty much learn a different way of using the keyboard, just for games.

Yeah, you can learn to use the keyboard and mouse right-handed. I can do it if I have to (I work in IT, so I'm always having to use other peoples' computers). But it's one thing to do it in noncritical situations, and another thing completely to be able to do it when you need split-second reactions. I just wish there was some more emphasis put on that than just "oh yeah, just run around till you get it down". As others here have said, we either have to learn how to use the WASD keys in new ways, or adapt/kluge our way through things - like the numberpad examples above.

[Shivan]

When I first started tanking on my warrior in Mags lair someone whispered me... "are you a keyboard turner, lol. That is bad if you really want to tank." From that point on I forced myself to mouse turn and it made a huge different to me anyway. However, when healing I do use the mouse to activate most of my casts so there is some keyboard turning going on there but in most cases I know where I am going to be going in advance and turn that direction long before the movement is needed. if they ever make healers face their target I might be in trouble.

[LadenTouch]

Id have to say that was very amusing.. I loved just idk.. loved seeing the aggravating of the fact that people do that.. i think its funny they do. And the whole intro as well. Keep up the good work.

[Linoge-Fly]

"Gorzantus" pronunciation it was awesome

[Felix]

I asked in my guild how people turn and bar our main tank ( who is insainly talented ) I was the only person keyboard turning. I now have remade my UI and spent all night and today learning how to turn with my mouse and no to click on the icons as it is not pracical anymore. I was shocked how much of a difference it can make once you convert over!

As always loved the podcast.

[Necronancy]

Keyboard turning is almost never about not being able to mouseturn, which is incredibly easy to learn. It is almost always about not being able to use keybinds to cast, which is much harder to learn.

I think any mention of keyboard turning should also mention keybinding and unlearning the click-icon mentality.

[Katfish]

I keyboard turn and I also mouse click. Moving around with the mouse isn't hard for me but the problem I have is not clicking on my spells. Looking down at my keyboard to find which number to press takes me longer then clicking it on my screen with my mouse. If I only used a couple spells that would be easier but that isn't the case. There are many times as a pally tank I need to cast other non common spells on others or what not. Also, if I need to move the boss back just a hair, if i mouse turn and run back, I have ran to far. So I need to keyboard turn on those moments of backing up just a hair.

On other note. As a healer I use healbot. :P lol

[Tressym]

I lol @ people thinking that you two are married. Oh...gotta love the interwebs!

I don't believe it's an unreasonable assumption for anyone to think they're an item. Although I assume that most people, like me, don't really care either way. But if I go to a website that has a male and female host that are discussing the same subject, I might assume that they're involved. But since I don't see why it would matter in any given situation, it's something I'd never bring up.

Edit: I thought I should better clarify what I'm saying. Basically not knowing anything about the host of this site or anyone involved with it if someone told me they are a couple I would most likely believe it.

[Mmiz]

Keyboard turning is bad in 99% of situations.. that I can keyb turn and run away from sindergosa (hc) cause I'm having a smoke doing it is not somthing I'd recomend most players.(especially shammys and others without abileties to gett fast away) I do how ever heal and in P3 sindergosa for example I will normal y do a 180 mousturn as I pop my nature swiftnes with my keyboard just to continue running with keyb and using HW on tank if needed or ch on raid if needed. (fairly comon in p3 on hc that either tank or raid need a instant at that point.) so somtimes combinations are the best but the general ruel is NONONO

Oh I play a resto sahmmy btw

[Tadra]

I'm a clicker AND key board turner (><) but ive yet to come across something that has hindered my performance in anyway. My guild has come to terms with my "handicap" and accept me as i am. My opinion is, if you are skilled at one way of playing the game why would u mess with that just because someone says its "taboo" or bad? If u can consistently out perform that haters dont change, jusr continue to show them how skilled you are.

[Kazeyonoma]

I'm a clicker AND key board turner (><) but ive yet to come across something that has hindered my performance in anyway. My guild has come to terms with my "handicap" and accept me as i am. My opinion is, if you are skilled at one way of playing the game why would u mess with that just because someone says its "taboo" or bad? If u can consistently out perform that haters dont change, jusr continue to show them how skilled you are.

Because as skilled as you are now, you could be even better, even if you have to suffer for a bit to adapt to the changes. In a game where the most difficult of encounter mechanics revolve around movement, clicking and keyboard turning simply is playing at a disadvantage, figuring out ways around them are cool, we all know about them, but the simple fact is you COULD be better, and claiming that your guild "accepts" you for who you are is noble, but it also means you're holding back your guild because they aren't calling you out on it.

[Mhoram]

Because as skilled as you are now, you could be even better, even if you have to suffer for a bit to adapt to the changes. In a game where the most difficult of encounter mechanics revolve around movement, clicking and keyboard turning simply is playing at a disadvantage, figuring out ways around them are cool, we all know about them, but the simple fact is you COULD be better, and claiming that your guild "accepts" you for who you are is noble, but it also means you're holding back your guild because they aren't calling you out on it.

I'd think, if the guild were that worried about being held back, there might be far more pressing reasons than keyboard turning.

After all, some of the greatest talents in history did things in non-conventional ways.

(I'm not arguing the point that he could be better. We could all be better, no matter how good we are now (or think we are, at any rate).)

[Erobinia]

To be able to strafe, mouse turn, key turn, backpedal, and strafe-turn effectively, and to fluidly transition between all of those, are the most valuable skills you can develop as a tank. None of your gear or rotations or talents matter all that much if you don't have the footwork down.

Swapping the locations of the strafe and turn keys (Q <--> A; E <--> D) makes this feel much more natural - there's a reason most FPS's and other "twitch" games use this as the default.

[Schwegburt]

To the people who want to stick with clicking/keyboard turning. All the more power to you if you can pull it off, you're probably a great player in general. You can even make a million excuses for why you do better clicking and keyboard turning than the plebians in your raid, but at the end of the day Binds and Mouse turning are still better.

A skilled individual is going to perform well no matter what, but how can they do their best? Look at Usain Bolt, the bastard broke the 100m World Record in Beijing, beating his chest and slowing down the last 20 meters, with his shoelaces untied!! Guess what though, he shattered his own world record later by actually doing everything right. That's the essence of Binds and Mouse turning.

Keyboarding turning and clicking is a personal handicap, you may do a lot better than the bind/mouse turning player right next to you, but that's a relative thing. That's the same concept of Gearscore vs skill. Gearscore simply suggests maximal playing ability, and rest assured horribly geared players can and have beat raiders w/ +6k gs. But using binds and mouse turning only improve your personal abilities if you take the time to become proficient in them. We argue over min/maxxing such as gemming, talents and theorycraft why is it hard to acknowledge something that you can improve upon on your own.

[Tressym]

To the people who want to stick with clicking/keyboard turning. All the more power to you if you can pull it off, you're probably a great player in general. You can even make a million excuses for why you do better clicking and keyboard turning than the plebians in your raid, but at the end of the day Binds and Mouse turning are still better.

A skilled individual is going to perform well no matter what, but how can they do their best? Look at Usain Bolt, the bastard broke the 100m World Record in Beijing, beating his chest and slowing down the last 20 meters, with his shoelaces untied!! Guess what though, he shattered his own world record later by actually doing everything right. That's the essence of Binds and Mouse turning.

Keyboarding turning and clicking is a personal handicap, you may do a lot better than the bind/mouse turning player right next to you, but that's a relative thing. That's the same concept of Gearscore vs skill. Gearscore simply suggests maximal playing ability, and rest assured horribly geared players can and have beat raiders w/ +6k gs. But using binds and mouse turning only improve your personal abilities if you take the time to become proficient in them. We argue over min/maxxing such as gemming, talents and theorycraft why is it hard to acknowledge something that you can improve upon on your own.

There is no personal handicap to having fun. WoW is just a video game. Being .05 seconds faster than someone else at performing a move doesn't improve your life, pay your bills, or get you a raise. Play the game the way you enjoy it most. If playing a certain way prevents you from doing everything you want to do in the game, then consider changing. Until then, just have fun.

[Yggdrasil]

There is no personal handicap to having fun. WoW is just a video game. Being .05 seconds faster than someone else at performing a move doesn't improve your life, pay your bills, or get you a raise. Play the game the way you enjoy it most. If playing a certain way prevents you from doing everything you want to do in the game, then consider changing. Until then, just have fun.

I always find myself dump founded by responses like this. One it shouldn't be all that important to someone that does keyboard turn to defend something this trvial. Not like keyboard turning pays your bills or makes the game funner. I mean I push these 2-3 buttons is funner then you pushing those 2-3 buttons? Amazingly amazing if you ask me for sure. Reaction time speed up helps you stay alive longer and get turned to the right angles more quickly that are things that can really improve game play, oh, and please note the can. If your satisfied with where you are at then by all means. I think what most people fail to realize is a lot of people that go to sites like this really want to either learn how to be better or understand what makes certain players able to do certain things. This is one of those things. If your not interested I am confused by the whole reading and heart filled defense statements made. I mean granted I am sure it is a little more then just a game to me because it has been elavated certainly to hobby by this point. But that is just how I feel at the moment.

[Tressym]

Nope, I just get baffled when people make claims such as "keyboard turning and clicking are a personal handicap" as if it should really mean that much to everyone. I rank it right up there with the folks who say they "worked really hard" for their gear. Video games don't count as hard work nor can any aspect of it equate to a personal handicap. Losing your job, not being able to walk or talk, those are personal handicaps. Video games are entertainment, nothing more. If someone is having fun by clicking and keyboard turning they shouldn't let people who take this game way too serious convince them they are somehow hindering their life over it.

I always find myself dump founded by responses like this. One it shouldn't be all that important to someone that does keyboard turn to defend something this trvial. Not like keyboard turning pays your bills or makes the game funner. I mean I push these 2-3 buttons is funner then you pushing those 2-3 buttons? Amazingly amazing if you ask me for sure. Reaction time speed up helps you stay alive longer and get turned to the right angles more quickly that are things that can really improve game play, oh, and please note the can. If your satisfied with where you are at then by all means. I think what most people fail to realize is a lot of people that go to sites like this really want to either learn how to be better or understand what makes certain players able to do certain things. This is one of those things. If your not interested I am confused by the whole reading and heart filled defense statements made. I mean granted I am sure it is a little more then just a game to me because it has been elavated certainly to hobby by this point. But that is just how I feel at the moment.

[Subetei]

i've done both... anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. it has it's plusses and minuses. it's harder and slower to target with mouse turning. i don't think i've ever died in a raid because i was keyboard turning though. i play all casters i'm sure it's more better for melees. the difference or impact (like a lot of things in WoW) seems to get more exaggerated as time goes by. players should be more skeptical of some of these things but definitely keyboard turn does suck for pvp... sometimes.

i mean there's this phenomena where there's x and y and if you do x you suck and if you do y you are really good when it turns out the difference between x and y is like 10dps or something. there's these theoretical abstractions then a lot of confirmation bias.

[uglie]

3 things. i am stick a keyboard turning and clicker with a lil mouse movement, and was wondering how to move backwards just little bit so that you dont have mobs beating on your back?
2) wouldn't the best time to learn to mouse move be when not progressively raiding. I.e. when cata comes out? i know i wouldn't want to mess up the fight simply because i was relearning how to play.
3) i've seen a lot of keyboard turners use tab targeting and accidently pull an unwanted mob. i personally feel mouse targetting is more precise for this reason

[Mmiz]

I find the easyest way to strafe is to hold down mouse key and use a---d (no they aint reboud) this is somthing I used to do in fps aswell as somtimes you want to keyb turn but mostly you want to mouse turn. also this makes shifting cam easyer when healing (I shift my cam to gett better overlook somtimes then in closer as I move to move more presice (first person in dreamstate )


uglie:
3)for targeting if youre singel targeting assist is realy usfull.. tab targeting is however better than mouse targeting mouse targeting is just so much slower in most situations... a combination of proper tabtargeting (there are ways to make sure its the right target) and assist is defo the best most efficient targeting method.

2)spend a evening doing heroics using mouse turning.. Most ppl have litle problem mouse turning and you will learn it realy quick... and tbh even if you're only getting to lets say 85% response time mouse turning you will still outperform keyb turning and can use it raiding. (I'd try it on farm night first Tuesday in the us wed in the EU)

1)A good point when moving is you newer have to turn youre back to annything l2strafe newer backpedal even in pve strafing is so much faster.. this goes for healers aswell if you backpedal you lose valubal time you could be casting a heal. for tanks it might result in failing to pick up a ad in time or gett to the rigth position in time... for dps it means lost dps time.