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Thread: Vig for warrior tank?

  1. #21
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    Clearly since you were gimping your dps and that tank was still having problems holding your thread he is wrong. Vig is an amazing talent and i always use it when it raids. In heroics however im extremely lazy and since nobody really pulls off me anyways i often forget about it. If a dps asks or pulls threat then i will toss it on him and i would never tell somebody no. Bad pug tanks are bad and ones like him will never learn. The only time i ever put it on another tank is for festergut? i always always confuse the two when im tanking the slimes just so i always have a taunt available if needed.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    3% damage reduction on a tank is a drop in the bucket in ICC, in my opinion, all your doing is gimping their threat. I would only put it on another tank if I needed infinite taunts, which dose not happen very often.
    3% damage is about the same as getting an additional, i dunno, 15k more armor for me. How is that not awesome? I'll tell you how. It doesn't stack with any other 3% you get from somewhere else. So if you have a disc priest with renewed hope talented the 3% does pretty much nothing, otherwise it's probably awesome.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    3% damage is about the same as getting an additional, i dunno, 15k more armor for me. How is that not awesome? I'll tell you how. It doesn't stack with any other 3% you get from somewhere else. So if you have a disc priest with renewed hope talented the 3% does pretty much nothing, otherwise it's probably awesome.
    I guess my original statement and your follow up are perceptions on both our parts. Might be interesting to see some actual math put to it.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  4. #24
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    If the 3% was additive maybe that would be true, but I'm fairly certain that is inacurate. ~4k armor I think is ~3% reduction (but it depends on your DRs). But that's a flat reduction.

    Looking further (note smaller number here = better since it's in the denominator):

    (1-.7)*(1-.03) = .291
    (1-.73) = .27

    So actually 3% more reduction to armor is better than 3% more reduction from vigilance buffs and the like. Remember, vig does not stack with BoSanc or Renewed Hope.

    Doing some more napkin math:
    .27 = .3*(1-x)
    .9 = (1-x)
    -.1 = -x
    .1 = x

    Therefore to equal a 3% increase in armor, an additional buff that is multiplicative (like all damage reduction effects are) would need to be about a 10% reduction, assuming no other effects.

    It's still an effin' awesome talent though.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    If the 3% was additive maybe that would be true, but I'm fairly certain that is inacurate. ~4k armor I think is ~3% reduction (but it depends on your DRs). But that's a flat reduction.

    Looking further (note smaller number here = better since it's in the denominator):

    (1-.7)*(1-.03) = .291
    (1-.73) = .27

    So actually 3% more reduction to armor is better than 3% more reduction from vigilance buffs and the like. Remember, vig does not stack with BoSanc or Renewed Hope.

    Doing some more napkin math:
    .27 = .3*(1-x)
    .9 = (1-x)
    -.1 = -x
    .1 = x

    Therefore to equal a 3% increase in armor, an additional buff that is multiplicative (like all damage reduction effects are) would need to be about a 10% reduction, assuming no other effects.

    It's still an effin' awesome talent though.
    15k was probably a little overzealous. The point for me was that I'm not in "super best gear evar" and I could pretty easily cap out my armor with another 9k. That would be less than a 3% increase. I mentioned that it didn't stack with other 3% buffs, and used the disc priest talent as an example. Renewed hope gives 3% reduction to the whole raid when you cast shield. However, if you don't have a disc priest and you're not BoSancing the target of vig then you've just applied a 3% damage reduction to someone. If it were on my tank it would be equal to a ton of armor. Unless it applies after armor it should be worth more than 3% armor reduction since it works on spells too.

    Edit: I probably should clarify. I don't expect to see another 9k armor on my toon. I'm just mentioning that for that amount I'll get less than 3% reduction from armor.

    Is armor applied before other reduction effects? I don't see why it would be, but mechanics are mechanics and I've never bothered testing it. Maybe I should.
    Last edited by Petninja; 06-03-2010 at 06:39 PM.

  6. #26
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    So is Vig worth putting on tanks as long as it doesn't gimp their threat or what because of the 3% dmg reduction?

  7. #27
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    A little more napkin math to show you how much armor vigilance is worth.

    At 65% reduction from armor:
    (1-.65)(1-.03) = .3395
    (1-.3395) = .6605 reduction from armor needed.

    .6605 armor reduction = 32363 armor
    .65 armor reduction = 30893 armor

    therefore if you have 65% armor reduction, or around 30893 armor, then vigilance represents the equivalent of a 1470 armor increase.

    If you have 70% armor reduction (38815 armor) then you'd need an equivalent of 70.9% reduction in armor which is 40523, so vigilance is worth an equivalent of 1708 armor.

    So actually since vigilance is a constant, it's actually worth more armor the more you have (since armor has DRs) but it actually is a smaller reduction in damage done (.9% vs 1.05%).

    So yes, it's good, and if there is no negative to putting it on another tank and you don't have the 3% reduction from somewhere else, yes, it is absolutely beneficial to put it on another tank.


    Edit: all damage reduction effects are multiplied at the same time, it really doesn't matter which comes first.

    Say you just start with the 3% reduction from vigilance. Say the incoming it would be 100k raw damage. Now you're only taking 97k raw damage. Now add in the 70% reduction from armor(97k*.3), and you're now taking 29.1k damage.

    Now say you start with the 70% reduction from armor, same incoming damage, you take 30k damage. Now add in the 3% from vigilance and you get 30k*.97 so 29.1k damage.

    It's all multiplicative, so it doesn't matter which one comes first. The associative property of mathematics holds true again!
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

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