warrior tanking- armor and threat ?

[praetoria]

hey guys,

Im retty new to the tank spot forums as a poster, though ive found direction here very often in the past. Ive always been an avoidence junky.. for the content i have been in, it was a LOT of fun..... that is until now. ive just gotten to sindragosa and with so much unavoidable damage, ive developed a bit of concern.

the 2 main things im considering is moving from avoid. stacking to armor stacking, and i certianly want to work on my threat gen. a few weeks back i replaced the bonecrusher with the face lifter. granted, i had mongoose on the bonecrusher, and i have blood draining on the facelifter. But i feel such a difference in my threat that its making me question everything. ive also played with my spec since i noticed that TK was not applying to sindragosa and still no avail.

so 2 questions:

1) can someone be so kind to direct me to a forum, website, or artical that can help me rediscover my massive aggro hold?

2) is agility work stacking for armor over avoidence?
2a- should i consider a trinket change?

heres my armoy link



any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks

[kaydubbleu]

Armor is king, get >= 30k armor.. Swap the TOC cloak for the frost emblem back piece..

IMO there is not any reason to gem for Def/Stam over straight Stam when over 540, unless required for Meta or Socket Bonus is >= 9 ..

I carry around the Key, Glyph of Indom, the Black Heart and Eitriggs Oath at all times and swap trinkets around for the different fights..Usually running Glyph and Key.

Spec could change a bit but nothing that would keep you from getting threat as far as I can see..

What is your rotation for single and multiple mobs??

[Hvitserk]

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...-tanking-guide
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...king-mechanics)

Very long read but well worth it. I learned a lot from reading his post.

[Bodasafa]

Gear:
Put +30 stam gems in all your sockets except for 1 purple to activate your meta. (the one in your helm currently is fine)

Get the +30 stam & +15 resil shoulder enchant.

Put +240 armor or +18 stamina on your gloves.

Replace the Corpse Coin with any other trinket you have. Glyph of Indom, Black Heart, Heart of Iron are all superior choices. Avoidance trinkets are a poor choice in ICC.

Get the Frost Badge cloak, put a +30 stam gem in it, and slap +225 armor on it. It is the best cloak in the game currently.

Spec:
Your spec is rather strange with half maxed out talents. It could be part of your threat issue with a non-maxed thunderclap (especially on AOE packs). Your also missing 1 of your minor glyphs. Since it looks like you only have 1 spec to dedicate to protection I would recommend 1 of the following 2.

Deep Wounds w/Imp Disciplines - This is your best threat spec: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LAM00f...idczsGo:iTrMmo

Max Survival - This is your best spec if you do not have another warrior to provide Imp Commanding or another class to provide a max AP Debuff. This is also more of a MT spec for single target since it dose not have damage shield: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LVZGV0...idczsho:iTrMmo

Also to your threat question.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2.

[Dreador]

^^^^^^^^^ nuff said /thread ^^^^^^^^^

[praetoria]

Gear:
Put +30 stam gems in all your sockets except for 1 purple to activate your meta. (the one in your helm currently is fine)

Get the +30 stam & +15 resil shoulder enchant.

Put +240 armor or +18 stamina on your gloves.

Replace the Corpse Coin with any other trinket you have. Glyph of Indom, Black Heart, Heart of Iron are all superior choices. Avoidance trinkets are a poor choice in ICC.

Get the Frost Badge cloak, put a +30 stam gem in it, and slap +225 armor on it. It is the best cloak in the game currently.

Spec:
Your spec is rather strange with half maxed out talents. It could be part of your threat issue with a non-maxed thunderclap (especially on AOE packs). Your also missing 1 of your minor glyphs. Since it looks like you only have 1 spec to dedicate to protection I would recommend 1 of the following 2.

Deep Wounds w/Imp Disciplines - This is your best threat spec: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LAM00f...idczsGo:iTrMmo

Max Survival - This is your best spec if you do not have another warrior to provide Imp Commanding or another class to provide a max AP Debuff. This is also more of a MT spec for single target since it dose not have damage shield: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LVZGV0...idczsho:iTrMmo

Also to your threat question.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2.

Hey Bodasafa,

thank you for your post. Im comming to find that the quality of the posters and the information here is far supirior to wow forums. This as already cleared up a lot of grey area's ive been pondering for some time. However i do have some questions to about your recomendations.

1) As for rejemming, this is the breakdown of why i have not gone full stam:

-my total socket bonus's = 75 stam right now.
-each jem i replace i gane 15 stam and loose eaither 10 deff or dodge. furthermore, i loose all socket bonus.

given I would leave 1 jem as is to keep meta active, i would gain 15 stam per jem and loose the socket bonus for each. the numbers play out as follows. gain of 90 stam, loss of 50 def and 30 dodge, loss of 75 stam in bonus.

so in the end, i would gain 15 stam total, and loose 50 def and 30 dodge. isnt this a huge loss of survival? would changing out def and dodge for agility be more effective then my current jemming?
NOTE- the like posted are the conversions im using.. are these up to date as far as you know?http://http://www.tankhard.com/formulas/

2)as for the coin trinket and specing, i was a big avoidence junky until now. this explains my spec and trinkets. I had a lot of fun with machanics but now i know a change is in order. i was aiming for the expertise hard cap of 56 (parry) but the last line of your post shows thats just a foolish ambition. i have the black heart i often use but my question is which of those 2 specs do you suggest? i have no other warrior in my 10 man group and i often main tank.


as for the shoulder enchant, i made the change you suggested. im also going to change the glove enchant once i have a spec ironed out.

lastly, im using blood drain on face lifter. i also have the bonecrusher with mongoose. any preference on these?

thanks agian for taking the time to write up.. awsome post

Mia

[praetoria]

^^^^^^^^^ nuff said /thread ^^^^^^^^^

jez... 73% avoid?...... do you /dance while in combat now? not like anything is hitting you. lol... how do you generate rage?

[Loganisis]

Santoro...

The short version - EH is better than avoidance. Unless you're hitting a +9 socket bonus it's not even close to being worth it. And then some don't think it's wroth it ever except to activate the meta.

The good version - Agg's comprehensive guide:

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...g-mechanics%29

[praetoria]

Santoro...

The short version - EH is better than avoidance. Unless you're hitting a +9 socket bonus it's not even close to being worth it. And then some don't think it's wroth it ever except to activate the meta.

The good version - Agg's comprehensive guide:

i understand your point. EH vs avoidence is the most debated topic in wow right now.. im NOT loooking to get into that discussion right now, but i am saying only what the exact math above proves. "ignoring" socket bonuses clearly is not a wise choice. loose 50 defence and 30 dodge to gain 15 stamina is undisputably a bad move. im sure everyones gear situation is different, but in my cause i it would be just crazy.

both those points being said, allow me to simplify the question... considering im converting 1 point agility to armor using the table linked above, is there a bennifit in armor stacking my jems only?

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...g-mechanics%29

[Bodasafa]

Hey Bodasafa,

thank you for your post. Im comming to find that the quality of the posters and the information here is far supirior to wow forums. This as already cleared up a lot of grey area's ive been pondering for some time. However i do have some questions to about your recomendations.

Aye welcome to tankspot.com. Leave the wow forums for the trolls

1) As for rejemming, this is the breakdown of why i have not gone full stam:

-my total socket bonus's = 75 stam right now.
-each jem i replace i gane 15 stam and loose eaither 10 deff or dodge. furthermore, i loose all socket bonus.

given I would leave 1 jem as is to keep meta active, i would gain 15 stam per jem and loose the socket bonus for each. the numbers play out as follows. gain of 90 stam, loss of 50 def and 30 dodge, loss of 75 stam in bonus.

so in the end, i would gain 15 stam total, and loose 50 def and 30 dodge. isnt this a huge loss of survival? would changing out def and dodge for agility be more effective then my current jemming?
NOTE- the like posted are the conversions im using.. are these up to date as far as you know?http://http://www.tankhard.com/formulas/

Lets do the math. By putting +30 stamina gems in the gear you have other gems in, aside from your helm you gain:
+ 9 to your bracers
+ 33 to your chest
+ 9 to your gloves
+ 6 to your belt
+ 6 to your legs
+ 6 to your boots
+ 9 to your ring
Total Stamina gained = 78

If you followed along with the math you will notice I counted in the socket bonuses you already have on the items and the result is the extra you would have from putting a +30 stamina gem in. So really even without the socket bonuses you gain a whopping 78 stamina.

Remember the Dodge and DEF your losing is rating not % or skill. So in the grand scheme they amount to very little. Not to mention you are way over the DEF crit cap so that's not a concern. Also remember stamina is multiplied by Kings as well as the ever increasing ICC buff.

In ICC Effective Health is king (armor + stamina).

2)as for the coin trinket and specing, i was a big avoidence junky until now. this explains my spec and trinkets. I had a lot of fun with machanics but now i know a change is in order. i was aiming for the expertise hard cap of 56 (parry) but the last line of your post shows thats just a foolish ambition. i have the black heart i often use but my question is which of those 2 specs do you suggest? i have no other warrior in my 10 man group and i often main tank.

I would go for the Max Survival then. I run with it in my 25 and 10.

lastly, im using blood drain on face lifter. i also have the bonecrusher with mongoose. any preference on these?

Your decent on both hit and expertise so use which ever one you want. I would go with Facelifter on progression since it has blood draining on it and use Bonecrusher for trash/farm bosses.

[praetoria]

thanks again... I never considered the dragons eye, and overlooked a few peaces that i do not have the bonus for at the moment.. i change spec/jem/chant so often i just wasnt paying attention.. im always torn when loosing the raiting vs gaining stam as any avoidence junky would be. im so close to the plain of glory (51% avoid threshold) that its hard to give up on it now, but it makes a lot of sence. If you have any other tit-bits to share id love to hear it.. stam just gets boring. lol

indeed wow forums= troll

i am worried about the spec for max survival.. do you ever encounter rage get problems? threat/rage gen was the sole reason i started this post. i just fugured while im on it, i can cover survival too.... but my main area of concern was threat.. if you say its a go then im all in

[Bodasafa]

i am worried about the spec for max survival.. do you ever encounter rage get problems? threat/rage gen was the sole reason i started this post. i just fugured while im on it, i can cover survival too.... but my main area of concern was threat.. if you say its a go then im all in

I have no rage or threat issues with that spec. It dose not have damage shield, which is nice for aoe trash packs or heroics. But lets be honest tanks should be specing for boss tanking, not trash/heroics. If a DPS dies on trash/heroics from pulling threat I generally laugh at them. Bosses hit so dam hard in ICC my rage is usually through the roof. Remember threat is all about your abilities. I macro Dev and HS together and basically spam the crap out of that and mix in SS on CD or Sword and Board procs, then mix in a few revenges when I can. Weave in some TC / Demo / Commanding for survival and your golden.

[Caim]

How about using the crafted plant and T10 chest to increase the armor and remain the T10x4 bouns

[Bodasafa]

How about using the crafted plant and T10 chest to increase the armor and remain the T10x4 bouns

That's what I currently use (armory link in my sig line). I had to use the legs for a short period of time until I got the Val boots cause I was using the crafted ones with no DEF.

[praetoria]

How about using the crafted plant and T10 chest to increase the armor and remain the T10x4 bouns

i havent made any big gear changes because it would basicly throw months of work out the window. its rare i get into 25 man, and i used my token on the legs because at the time I was full avoidence. i know at some point it will be worth it, but up till now Im still only on sindragosa so its not really needed just yet.. Im also dealing with the fact that stam/mitigation is just so boring without being in the highest endgame content.

[praetoria]

I have no rage or threat issues with that spec. It dose not have damage shield, which is nice for aoe trash packs or heroics. But lets be honest tanks should be specing for boss tanking, not trash/heroics. If a DPS dies on trash/heroics from pulling threat I generally laugh at them. Bosses hit so dam hard in ICC my rage is usually through the roof. Remember threat is all about your abilities. I macro Dev and HS together and basically spam the crap out of that and mix in SS on CD or Sword and Board procs, then mix in a few revenges when I can. Weave in some TC / Demo / Commanding for survival and your golden.

thats interesting, i would have to say my rotation is more like dev, hs, rev, ss. of course i keep sundarmor x5 up at all times, but rev procs so often for me that i spam that more then dev. droping tc and demo inbetween rotations. i find i can pull 3k-3500 dps on this rotation. but theres a down side... Belive it or not, there somtimes comes a point where i have to stop using HS because im under 40rage. could this be my threat problem? what happend to the toc days where rage was at 100 the entire time!

FYI- this is only a problem when someone ( feral, hunter or mage) spikes around 11k dps. i have absolutly no aoe threat issue ( that 40+ ranged crit scope is amazing by the way) Most often its the feral puling off me.. its rare the mages or even the hunter pulls but the hunter can get up on me at the start of the fight.

[Bodasafa]

Yeah if your rage starving yourself from to many Heroic Strikes that can lead to problems. Also if your still geared towards avoidance, that complicates the issue too. Avoidance streaks = rage starvation.