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Thread: Examine my Tank and Rate Build,Gear,Stats - Advice welcome

  1. #1
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    Examine my Tank and Rate Build,Gear,Stats - Advice welcome

    Hello everyone,

    Older player here, and have Tanked for over 3 years constant on my Warrior aka Caramon on Shattered Halls. Also I'm co GM of the Purdgerors, been a Main Tank for good of guild and Leadered many Raids.

    I have read many things and disected Trees , etc, and I'm aware this game is ever changing. As I'm a new dad in the recent year I get less time in game.

    I dont see many Tanks around on Shattered Halls, and especially Warrior ones. The Best type in my unbiased opinion. .

    Anayways to my points, away long ago we heard of the 102.4% Aim - Dodge , Parry , Block etc. To be Imba was the term used back then . My current is Dodge26.85% , Parry 19.98% Block is 16.33%.

    Currently I am at 87% Melee Reduction Value ( a term used in Tankpoints), this combines Armor and other Tank stats - before I use Trinkets or Avoidance Buttons or Blade Ward may kick in etc etc

    When I click on Trinkets, (5 I have and current 1's equipped on Char is not always what I use - ** Fervor of the Frostborn, Black Heart , Glyph of Indomitability, etc ** and maybe use a Shield Wall or Block or whatever I can see my MDR and Tankpoints become probs as high as I can get. Caramon can sometimes be amazingly hard to hit. Quick also and can be miles ahead of other Tanks on Aggro v mobds.

    I think I am there tbh, as Gear is only 25% , Skill and Button combos and awareness 50% and Talent Tree 25% - ithat ratio is BLIZZARDS own words , it also how they kinda make Raid world go around, so best Gear IS NOT a making of a CLASS Tank . In a Raid if every player can achieve a 75% performance (obvious Tactics adds probability also towards success), then a good Raid will be running.

    Anayways I know I havent got the BEST gear , but as I have my back packs full of most Tank Gear of most stats combos, I think I am maybe closer than some towards the Way of the Warrior, or am I miles off and talking shit??

    PS: We need 1 or 2 good tanks to take our older players Guild The Purdgerors(4 years old) on Shatered Halls to the next step. IF YOU CAN AND WANNA HELP, LIKE IN ICC ETC, THEN COME ON DOWN!

    http://www.wow-heroes.com/ look me up disect and criticise or rate.

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...alls&n=Caramon

    I am not bigheaded, just realistic, and is Caramon near to Imba or not... ?

    Thank you )

    Jason

  2. #2
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    Unfortunately, nowhere near. Now bear with me because there's a lot to cover. I'll start from the top. Your head enchant is outdated, get the one from Argent crusade rep. All of your gems should be 30 stamina except one purple gem to hit the meta bonus, pick the largest stamina socket bonus to hit for this one. Your shoulders are missing an enchant, use the one from 10,000 honor in stormwind (30 stam/15 resil). Your chest needs 275 health, 10 stats does not become better until the ICC buff hits 30%. Also switch out the defense gem for stamina. Gloves are unenchanted, either 18 stamina or 240 armor. Weapon: Blade Ward is pretty terrible, switch to either Blood Draining or Mongoose. Shield enchant should be 18 stamina (BC enchant). Fervor of the Frostborn trinket is garbage, replace with either the Corroded Skeleton Key from frost emblems or the Black Heart (non-heroic 5 man TOC). You also need to max out your Blacksmithing to take advantage of the 2 extra gem slots. Spec looks fine, but I suggest if you are going to spec for shield wall, you should glyph it too. Replace Revenge with Glyph of Shield Wall. I think I covered everything here. Let me know if there's questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  3. #3
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    Also, you said you never see any tanks around. Check out this one from your server: Integrity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Response to Dreador and awaiting more info :)

    Hello Dreador,

    Thanks for reply mate. I would firstly say I have and use the Black Heart and most of the other Trinkets , depending If I want max avoidance or more HP( which tbh arent required if you DONT get hit).

    As I have less time in game as I said above, building rep is a waste of time for me. Hours of mind numbing scavenging for perhaps +10 def or dodge or whatever aint worth it.

    Ill get the Shoulders from Sons of Hodir rather than Exalted for the Pinnacle as it only gives + 5 dodge and +5 def extra...again kinda waste of time.

    Blade Ward I will have to disagree on, at mo I have 264 Parry which gives around 5% bonus and sticks me near 20%.. If Blade Ward activates my Tank gains another +200 Parry...this can happen repeatedly. Parrying used to also allow Bosses to Crit us 3-4 times on trot..unsure it does same for us, but think it does.

    The Corrdoded Skeleton Key, it gives +227 Stam which is basically a +1000 hp over Black heart, but absorbing 6400 damage ???? In a Raid even a AoE from a boss would eat that up. I feel it is a glossed up item and waste of 60 Frost Emblems. The Fervour when worn with Glyph of Abdominability gives 114 dodge equipped and bonus 512 every 2 mins ... and ofc 6000 armor from Fervour and 1792 from Glyph... Ask yourself what better , 1000 hp or 8000 armor - Hope you see I try not get hit and if I do, minimise damage.

    Lastly for Shield Wall, Glyph I may take and alter. Trying to find that ideal Glyph setup for my play.

    The BS skill I grew weary long ago, and again I hate levelling it and less time I have ....so 2 slots I lose out on Stam. )

    PS: Looking at your Warrior linked and he is Gear above only. Caramons Armor: 28571 - Reduces Physical damage by 65.23%. Integrity 33161 - Reduces 68.52% - Wondering what his Melee Damge Reduction Total is - MDR. Only a 3% Armor increase.

    He would be better lowering his HR and Increasing his Expertise. http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/0...tter-than-hit/ . My Base MDR is 87% .. I would love to see this Character in game ofc and chat about Tank stuff )


    His Attack Power is only approx 1000 more and only a averge of 325 /sec comapred to Caramons 279.

    His best attribute is by miles Hit Points only as he is at 50,000. Mine is 32,711 . After Buffs and in a Raid team and via Tree and Trinkets Caramons HP can soar to 62,000+ for periods of time....(Average out tat 40,000 ) Truth ..no lies. IF you get Hit you'll need HP, if you can avoid it and still get Rage and Aggro, quickest on field to press a Disarm or Concuss a Foe, Interrupt all day Spellies ,take more damge than other Tanks and require Less Healing , and can play with foes ) then closer to the perfect Warrior we can all be......Some one somewhere has the smoothest Character , Blizzard wont give us tips on it...... But I hope you can now see what Im getting at..Not that Caramon is good, but that HP monsters get Hit more...

    PS me and Integrity share exact same Talent Tree..... maybe same button combo's ..maybe not.

    What is scary is that most his Items are end game stuff and at lvl 277 .... Gear as I said is 25% of the equation, hope it worth more than 16kHP, 4.5 k Armor, 1000 Power , and unure what else ., from lvl 233 average to lvl 277.

    Anyways Dreador, thank you for your input, we learn something every day. At my age im forgetting stuff every day also )

    Much Obliged,

    Caramon

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    Perhaps someone else would care to comment since you don't believe someone quite a far bit progressed beyond you. You keep saying you don't need stamina because you don't get hit....but you do get hit. There's a lot you could stand to learn still, your opinions, while welcome, are entirely unfounded.

    The reason why blade ward is bad: 1) Parry rating suffers major diminishing returns, 2) The uptime and proc rate are abominable, 3) [and the biggest reason] It goes away as soon as you parry.............

    The major difference between you and Integrity is NOT gear. Look at how he gems and enchants his gear.


    I am very happy to help you but if you're going to spit my advice back in my face then look elsewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  6. #6
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    Dreador it was not intended to be so.

    reason why blade ward is bad: 1) Parry rating suffers major diminishing returns, 2) The uptime and proc rate are abominable, 3) [and the biggest reason] It goes away as soon as you parry.............

    I dont understand that completely. Explaiin in easy terms. )

    Its a debate, and I feel I get hit far less. Think im trying to make folk look at figures more. Yes, consider Cara a part time tank now. So Im trying to encourage to look beyond Gear.

    Iam happy to say when Im wrong, but need 100% shown what I need to see. TBH not much for me to learn , play wise.... only Gear if/when we get more nice tanks.

    "There's a lot you could stand to learn still, your opinions, while welcome, are entirely unfounded" I said it cos I honestly beleive in what Im saying...leave mouse over Tankpoints Menu skills etc, and watch numbers move..... As you apply Trinket or Defense Buffs etc

    Ofc you'll know this but maybe others dont.

    Respect m8

    Cara
    Last edited by CARAMON1; 04-24-2010 at 10:41 PM.

  7. #7
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    well to be honest nd quiet blunt hes right all these little things matter in tanking and gear if u dont have the time to grind rep then dont but dont take his advise nd toss it aside like that if ur not gunna tank then go deeps but either way u go ur going to need to fix the little things

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    Avoidance is fine for heroics but counting on not getting hit in a raid will wipe the raid for sure. I didn't know you were a part time tank, perhaps I missed that. What content are you tanking?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post

    Thanks for reply mate. I would firstly say I have and use the Black Heart and most of the other Trinkets , depending If I want max avoidance or more HP( which tbh arent required if you DONT get hit).
    Your tanking in ICC, u do get hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post
    As I have less time in game as I said above, building rep is a waste of time for me. Hours of mind numbing scavenging for perhaps +10 def or dodge or whatever aint worth it.

    Ill get the Shoulders from Sons of Hodir rather than Exalted for the Pinnacle as it only gives + 5 dodge and +5 def extra...again kinda waste of time.
    Go for pvp shoulder enchant, take u around 2 hours max.

    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post
    Blade Ward I will have to disagree on, at mo I have 264 Parry which gives around 5% bonus and sticks me near 20%.. If Blade Ward activates my Tank gains another +200 Parry...this can happen repeatedly. Parrying used to also allow Bosses to Crit us 3-4 times on trot..unsure it does same for us, but think it does.
    Blade wards uptime is around 2-3%. Mongoose is Double to tripple that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post
    The Corrdoded Skeleton Key, it gives +227 Stam which is basically a +1000 hp over Black heart, but absorbing 6400 damage ???? In a Raid even a AoE from a boss would eat that up. I feel it is a glossed up item and waste of 60 Frost Emblems. The Fervour when worn with Glyph of Abdominability gives 114 dodge equipped and bonus 512 every 2 mins ... and ofc 6000 armor from Fervour and 1792 from Glyph... Ask yourself what better , 1000 hp or 8000 armor - Hope you see I try not get hit and if I do, minimise damage.
    its 6400 mitigated damage, if your mitigation is 65% then this scales to a lot more that 6.4k, more like 18k. Using this and the warrior 4 piece at same time is a hell of a damage reduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post
    He would be better lowering his HR and Increasing his Expertise. http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/0...tter-than-hit/ . My Base MDR is 87% .. I would love to see this Character in game ofc and chat about Tank stuff )
    If you look at high end tank kit, its loaded with hit. I havent looked but i bet he has not gemmed hit, nor enchanted it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post
    His best attribute is by miles Hit Points only as he is at 50,000. Mine is 32,711 . After Buffs and in a Raid team and via Tree and Trinkets Caramons HP can soar to 62,000+ for periods of time....(Average out tat 40,000 ) Truth ..no lies. IF you get Hit you'll need HP, if you can avoid it and still get Rage and Aggro, quickest on field to press a Disarm or Concuss a Foe, Interrupt all day Spellies ,take more damge than other Tanks and require Less Healing , and can play with foes ) then closer to the perfect Warrior we can all be......Some one somewhere has the smoothest Character , Blizzard wont give us tips on it...... But I hope you can now see what Im getting at..Not that Caramon is good, but that HP monsters get Hit more...
    Yeah, with 50k hp his standard hp in raids will be around 69k. It will then soar waaaay higher with cooldowns.

    Most bosses cant be disarmed, or concussed. Not all boss spells are interuptable
    Last edited by madocks; 04-25-2010 at 01:37 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post
    "There's a lot you could stand to learn still, your opinions, while welcome, are entirely unfounded" I said it cos I honestly beleive in what Im saying...leave mouse over Tankpoints Menu skills etc, and watch numbers move..... As you apply Trinket or Defense Buffs etc....

    Cara
    First of all I would say stay away from Tankspoints, I know the concrete values are nice but they are just pulled out of thin air and don't adjust for different situations.

    I will try to explain why EH and almost every other tank EH stacks and what makes it effective.

    Now think back through all the bosses that could kill the tank through this expansion, Sartharion 3D, Algalon, Gormok, Anub, Festergut, Sindragosa, LK.
    Once you have gotten the main reasons of tank deaths down now think how those bosses killed the tank, to give a short summary

    Sartharion: Killed the tank with huge Flame Breaths, that's right avoidance will do absolutely nothing here. Stamina is the way to go.

    Algalon: At the appropriate gear level you are going to have about 41-43k hp, Algalon is going to hit you like a truck, your health will flicker like a light switch and if a healer has to move and you go for avoidance he will hammer you if RNG doesn't go your way and by the time your healer gets back he or she won't have time to catch up, EH is the way to go here.

    Gormok: Gormok killed tanks with a simple combo, Impale, Bleed, Melee. Now think, the Impale is unavoidable but affected by armor, Bleed is by neither and Melee is by both. Now the bleed which is about 20% of the damage is unmitgable. The only part of this which is avoidable is the Melee, the Melee is only about 30% of the damage, do you really want to pray to the RNG gods to avoid that melee? Go with EH here with a ratio of 1 stam = 14.62 armor.

    Anub: The only time you die is when your frozen and can't avoid, this takes avoidance out of the equation completely. However he penalizes you for more health so go with armor and resistance which are both forms of EH.

    Festergut: He hits like a truck even with your cds up, with your cds up on stack 2 and 3 he can take you down in about 3 hits plus a Gastric Bloat which is magic. Not going to want to go RNG here, the more EH you have the less healers have to heal you up for the next swing to keep you alive.

    Sindragosa: All magic, go stamina.

    LK: Mostly magic when you Safeguard Intervene or taunt switch, either way Soul Reaper is going to hurt.

    Hopefully this will illustrate what people mean by go with EH, don't ignore avoidance because it helps from gobbling up GCDs but do not prioritize it.

  11. #11
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    Hello to all,

    Sorry I have taken so long to reply to my post, as I've been working on a shutdown for last 2 months ( only 2 weeks to go) and I'm a new father , son is 11 months old and takes up a lot of time also. Thus why I consider myself a part time Tank of late.

    I thank you all for taking the time to reply to my post and I see it has been viewed many times.

    I am 36 year old, and have Tanked for 3-4 years. I have had the privalege of Co Leading The Purdgerors Guild for all that time and have been the Main Tank for most of that time also. I obviously don't have the time I once had the guild needs Tanks, as has always been the case on Shattered Halls. I think many people dont want the hassle of being a tank and hate the negativity directed towards them when the make an ass of something.... Imo ofc!

    The guys and girls in the Guild deserve more tanks of easy going nature, such is life unfortunately.

    May I ask a few questions and have them answered in a " Easy to understand , quick format"?

    1 Tank points you may say is not to be used, but Effective Health is also calculated on this add on. Do you also consider this crap or worthy looking at?

    2 Parry v Mongoose. Even though you say the Uptime is almost double that of Blade Ward on Mongoose, what exactly does a Parry do for a Warrior v any enemy ? Make next strike or 2 auto hit or does it also make a few moew next hits Crit?

    3 I realise Caramon has low HP. What gems are obvious in his current Gear that are better replaced? Is there any obvious Enchants to be changed? How much more HP can I actually get on him with current Gear?

    4 I am aware also that ICC lowers my dodge by 20%. Would I be correct in saying that if Blizzard didnt then again this 10 man would be a walk in the Park? Is this directed to hinder Tanks in particular?

    5 Sometimes we have to strive to achieve with the Gear and time on game we all have. How far you reckon Cara can get in ICC as a MT or OT.??

    I will let you know how I do when i get more time on game .....But I always like a challenge and Gear is only 25% of a chars makeup in game . I know how to Tank, and I like to try and stay same Talent Spec. Of course I can arm the Black Heart and I'm a few dailys away from the Corroded Skeleton Key....so a few more HP and lower Avoidance will entail.

    Respect and thanks to you all,

    Jason aka Caramon

  12. #12
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    1. Tank points is a great addon but dont just use it it is a tool when used effctivly is great.

    2.Blade ward is a Random element for Damage, not survival. Mongoose is again not the best. Blood Draining is hands down the best. It is a Guaranteed to proc when you dip low so it is reliable while mongoose and blade ward are not.

    3. You are gonna put stam on every slot of gem. Ignore socket bonuses and gem stam every where EXCEPT in your belt socket i would put a dodge stam gem there. Stamina enchants and armor enchants are Best gloves has 18 stam, honor one has 30 stam, and chest has a 275 hp or 27~ stam, sheild has 18 stam, and lastly the helm enchant can be upgraded by going to the argent crusade getting their tabard and doing heriocs till you are exalted.

    4.What ICC's dodge buff does is make tanks more relaint on EH alot of tanks were gemming avoidance or block capping and running around praying for strings of lucky dodges and parries. Now tanks must be able to live through the hits and not just liv on luck.

    5. I totally get you saying you only have so much time for raids. The black heart is a good place to start, i know that you are good for any 10 man ToC down and with the 15% buff out you are not far off of ICC10. I know right now with a good group you can OT through 4/12 icc10

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinytankz View Post
    4.What ICC's dodge buff does is make tanks more relaint on EH alot of tanks were gemming avoidance or block capping and running around praying for strings of lucky dodges and parries. Now tanks must be able to live through the hits and not just liv on luck.
    This is incorrect, gearing is the same in ICC as it was before, EH, EH, and some more EH.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post
    4 I am aware also that ICC lowers my dodge by 20%. Would I be correct in saying that if Blizzard didnt then again this 10 man would be a walk in the Park? Is this directed to hinder Tanks in particular?

    5 Sometimes we have to strive to achieve with the Gear and time on game we all have. How far you reckon Cara can get in ICC as a MT or OT.??
    4) The 20% dodge reduction is targeted exclusively at tanks. DPS and healers do not care at all about dodge. Without that, ICC would not be easy, as it was implemented so the designers could build bosses that would hit tanks consistently and hard, rather than infrequently and fatally.

    5) You could probably handle the first four bosses in ICC10 okay, I would think. Better if you follow some of the advice given earlier in the thread on gemming and enchanting.


    And re: the initial post - 102.4% avoidance wasn't called "imba", it was called "uncrushable".

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARAMON1 View Post
    Hello to all,


    1 Tank points you may say is not to be used, but Effective Health is also calculated on this add on. Do you also consider this crap or worthy looking at?



    Jason aka Caramon
    Tankpoints is based off of nothing.

    EH is an actual number where you can know the exact guaranteed survival of armor to stamina through math with reduction and health.

  16. #16
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    Thanks again to you guys for giving me it straight.

    When I get more time I will stock up on Stamina Gems and stock a few more Stamina Enchants. Ill search through my catalogue of Gear and see what I can dress up Cara with for his next night out )

    What is quite disappointing is though, is that I feel the skills and reflexes of the fast moving Warrior, may as well be flung in the bin.

    Looks like ill be standing there and become the lump of meat that is constantly Hit and will require a constant Healing flow connected to me..... Skill and movement also I may as well forget while im in ICC. Blizzard , get your finger out!

    I look forward to more ingenuity from their Raid designers if Stamina rules. Speak about going back to basics...... mmm

    Let you know in time how I get on,

    Caramon aka The Static Lump of Meat! )

  17. #17
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    Skills isnt shown through dodging/parrying/blocking abilitys, its shown through coordination, timing your cooldowns and knowing what to do (possibly more stuff like this, but i cant think of it off the top of my head)

  18. #18
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    The Warriors main skills are Dodge Parry Block etc etc. He is after all a melee class. We tailor our chars to increase these values do we not?

    The Real life player skills are indeed timing , movement , maximimising efficiency in rorations etc, to aggro and control the battlefield. Gear helps us take more hits and reduce damage.

    My point is that Blizzard is taking a 20% swipe from us via ICC buff. From what I read we are encouraged to maximise Hit Points and accept to be Hit constant . That disturbs me cos Ive spent so much time trying to put thought into char.

    That is all, still love the game .

    Tanking rocks )

    Respect and dignity to all,

    Cara

  19. #19
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    Even before ICC you should have been stacking EHP. Avoidance isn't skill, it is RNG. The 20% debuff is not new either, they did it in BC also.
    The Warriors main skills are Dodge Parry Block etc etc. He is after all a melee class. We tailor our chars to increase these values do we not?
    Simply put, no, we do not.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  20. #20
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    Aggathon

    Just read your post linked below your picture, and what I see is what exactly I need mate. I love what I see and I take my hat off to your wider knowledge.

    I will digest and alter Caramon as I can. I'm a new poster /member here and I am unsure of who is responding and what value to place on replies. But I reckon my questions are answered.

    Ill respond to how I get on with current Gear at a later date,

    Caramon
    Last edited by CARAMON1; 05-26-2010 at 07:06 PM.

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