Stuns and slows on val'kyrs.Lich king 25.

[jhaze]

Hi eveyrone.
I need a little bit of help for managing stuns and slows in lk 25 normal mode for valkyr guardians.
Our "standard" raid composition looks like that:

2x Arcane Mage
1x Elemental Shaman
1x Unholy Death Knight
3x Shadow Priest (we actually put 1xvalkyr)
2x retri paladin
2x Holy Paladin
1x Blood Death Knight tank
2x Affliction Warlock
2x Mutilate Rogue
1x Resto druid
1x Protection Warrior
1x Marksmanship Hunter
1x Moonkin Druid
3x Holy-Discipline Priest
0x Resto Shaman

I didn't put 25 ppl,cause we are not always the same,but we have some standard lacks and presences of each class in our raid composition.
Your suggestion should be something like that:
1st Valkyr: (aoe stun x- aoe slow y-class1 stun +class2 slow-class 3 backup stun class 4 backup slow)
2nd valkyr: (aoe stun x-aoe slow y-class 5 stun + class 6 slow - class 7 backup stun - class 8 backup slow)
3th valkyr: (aoe stun x-aoe slow y-class9 stun + class 10 slow - class 11 backup stun - class 12 backup slow)

The class2/6/10 slow,will always be shadowpriest's mind flay,aoe stun x will be pala aoe stun,aoe slow will be warr's piercing)
But let's share some suggestions.(even some respeccing like warlock or i dunno).

[Bishoptwo]

You seem to have everything under control so I'm not sure what you are asking.

Hunter Frost Traps work well and Lich King triggers them and makes them become active so even if your hunter gets picked up its already down.

Just spread your slows out, rogues can weapon swap to an OH w/ crippling during this phase, you have 3 SP's, you could even make an Arcane Mage pick up slow and you could double up slows on every Valkyr.

Ret PLD aoe stun when they come down, then have the second stun happen when they are like halfway out then have a third stun on them if/when they get closer to the edge. Just let people know which stun they are on each target so they don't go DR as soon as they land from everyone stunning everyone of them.

Also are you aoeing ahead of time right before they land? That helps alot except for the 2nd one where Defile lines up right behind it. Having everyone going all out AOE right before they land puts alot of damage on them and allows ppl to then find their target after they are marked and they can keep AOEing if they all fly out together or switch to single target if they fly off in different directions.

[jhaze]

are the slow effects addittive?
I mean does arcane slow/crippling/mind fly add together to a unique slow?
Does frost trap and mind flay,adds together?
Or is it unnecesary and crippling or arcane slow,should be used only if the shadow priest slow (the main slow),is inactive on the current valkyr?

[Zarkos]

Hmm I think you got it wrong.

Slowing effects don't stack together, the strongest will overwrite the others, if there are many slows with the same strength it will use the one that last the longest.

Now summoned Val'kyrs have this buff Wings of the damned, making them not being able to be slowed more than 50% of their normal speed, so crippling poison (which is a 70% slow) or chains of ice (which is a 90% slow) won't slow them more than 50%. By the way be mindful that the strongest slow needs to be reapplied, cause it could catch your raid off guard and the slow could fall from the target, making the val'kyr starts flying really fast, since no one is able to overwrite the first slow till it's actually gone.

About the stuns, the val'kyrs have dimishing returns, so you probably can stun them 3-4 times at most, making every consecutive stun after the first one get their duration cut by 75%, 50%, 25% of their effectiveness. You have to make sure your longest stuns are first. Later, when they are close to the edge the DR refreshes and you can stun them again a little, but if you do a good stun rotation at the beginning you shouldn't have a problem.

[Bitterst]

About the stuns, the val'kyrs have dimishing returns, so you probably can stun them 3-4 times at most, making every consecutive stun after the first one get their duration cut by 75%, 50%, 25% of their effectiveness. You have to make sure your longest stuns are first.

I agree with everything you've said but for clarification the Diminishing Returns is:
100%
50%
25%
Immune

So using actual spell examples starting with your Holy Wrath example:
Holy Wrath 100% = 3 seconds
Kidney Shot 50% = 3 seconds
Hammer of Justice 25% = 1.5 seconds
Anything else = Immune
------------------------------------------------
Leading to a total of 7.5 seconds worth of full stuns. Diminishing Returns doesn't reset until 15 seconds after the first spell of that category has expired, so in this cast DR wouldn't be back up until 15 seconds after Holy Wrath expired, which would surely be too long as the Val'kyr would be off the edge by then.

A lot of people think Holy Wrath first is a good idea but I disagree unless you're composition really has no other alternatives, which typically isn't the case. Other stun orders can grant a lot more killing time, such as:
Hammer of Justice 100% = 6 seconds
Kidney Shot 50% = 3 seconds
Holy Wrath 25% = 1 second
Anything else = Immune
--------------------------------------------------
Leading to a total of 10 seconds of full stunning, which actually is quite a bit more if you're struggling with them.


For your specific setup (assuming your DK is main tanking and your Prot Warrior is OTing with Safeguard or something leaving him mainly free when the Val'kyr spawn), I'd do an initial stun when they spawn, a second stun when they get to the circle design, and a 3rd stun just before they reach the edge of the platform. This also is assuming you're already gotten a hang of having the raid positioned offset to one side so all 3 Val'kyr fly in the same direction.
Val'kyr 1: Imp Hammer of Justice (Has to be up every 47 seconds for new Val'kyr waves), then Kidney Shot, then Holy Wrath
Val'kyr 2: Imp Hammer of Justice (Has to be up every 47 seconds for new Val'kyr waves), then Kidney Shot, then Holy Wrath
Val'kyr 3: Reg Hammer of Justice (can rotate the two paladin's that don't spec for it), then Concussive Blow, then Holy Wrath


This is a bit riskier if you're can't get the all to go in the same direction, but at the -very worst- you'll be getting a full 6 second Hammer of Justice or Kidney Shot on all 3 Val'kyr, which means if no other stuns went off at all you'd only be losing a 1.5 seconds stun in comparison to and setup that uses Holy Wrath on all of them first. However, this is doing the same thing in 3 total GCDs in comparison to 7 before. Or even if you didn't feel safe with that and did Hammer/Kidney first then Holy Wrath second, you'd be using 4 GCDs for 7.5 seconds of stunning everything in comparison to 7 GCDs for the same thing.

I also agree with using Frost Traps to trigger slows on all the Val'kyr as being very effective since it can be a GCD used before the mobs spawn which will lead to more damage into them. Another good alternative if you have it available is a Frost Death Knight with 3/3 Chilblains to slow them. However, using this slow you'll need to make sure the hunters do not use Frost Traps unless the DK calls out that he's been picked up, otherwise the Trap's slow effect will overwrite the Chilblains effect, but the slow sticks on them for 15 seconds. Also, in the last phase, Chilblains slowing all the Vile Spirits by 50% for 15 seconds literally doubles your raid's time to kill them before they start exploding, so we found a Frost DK as an automatic inclusion in our composition anyways, even if it meant our normal Unholy DK respecing.

[jhaze]

thx a lot bitterst.
unfortunately i'm the only one dk in raid (dps).
The problem with youre strategy is that,we aren't sure that we can have always 3x paladins in raid every night of try.
But I'll keep your suggestion to my mates,thanks a lot.

[jhaze]

another one question btw,bishoptwo is saying that you can use aoe on valkyrs even before they grap someone,and they're still in the air.
Is it true?
And,arent they targettable?

[bling581]

I don't think this is true. I've heard it mentioned before in our 10 man that they're not targetable until they've picked up someone.

[jhaze]

but,are they dpsable (with aoe abilitys cast on lich king such as mind sear)?

[Thegreatme]

I would actually say that is it better to holy wrath right as they spawn instead of at the end, and single target stuns should be used as needed. snares make or break killing the valkys more than the stuns, having 100% uptime on a 50% speed reduction is going to make the biggest difference because not having a snare up is essentially eating up any time you gained from a stun. one thing to note though is that charge isn't affected by DR's so if your prot warrior isn't tanking something have him spot charge valkyr's that get ahead of the others.

[Dragaan]

Yea, charge is great for last-second stuns on them. Just make sure the warrior isn't trying to intercept. Charge stun isnt affected by DR, but intercept is.

[swelt]

Any reason why people are focussing on Holy Wrath rather than Shockwave for the AOE stun? I haven't found it too hard to catch all 3 in the shockwave if things are going well, and it's got 1 second longer duration afaik?

[Thegreatme]

Most guilds focus on using HW instead of a shockwave because there is no variable of if the warrior is tanking or not, however if said warrior is not tanking then by all means, use shockwave. In my guild we generally use it as a back up for if our ret/holy pally get picked up and our prot pally is tanking.

[Carcus]

Would you suggest to Death Knights to use Chains of Ice on Valks? We have 2 Death knights in our raid (DPS) I was thinking if they use Chains of Ice twice that's 2 frost runes which will probably cripple there DPS a lot on the Valks and might lead to Valks killing people due to not enough DPS? Is it best to leave it to other classes to slow? and DK last resort?

[Bitterst]

There's not really a reason to use Chains of Ice as the Val'kyr's Wings of the Damned buff which caps their slowing to 50%. They would also have to be cast after they land, where as a hunter's Frost Trap or a shaman's Earthbind Totem can be placed before those precious GCDs could be the difference of someone landing on the edge or dropping off. Not to mention, you then have to use 3 separate slows vs just 1 Aoe slow.

[Fhres]

Question regarding the paladin hammer stuns; do you stun the valks instantly when they land (so the first stun ~1sec before the last stun) or do you wait until all three have landed and then stun them?

[Faction]

If you want a full proof way to do this with your setup, do the following.

Stuns:

If you use DXE to mark the icons and use the defualt setup, circle will be the last icon marked on the last valkyr that lands.

So when Circle lands:

- Use Shockwave for a 4 second stun.
- As soon as Circle moves, and valks accelerate slowly if they are snared, use holy wrath for 1.5 second stun.
- Follow up with another holy wrath for 0.75 second stun.

For slows:

- Have the unholy DK spec into desecration. If DK is not picked up and hunter trap is down, this is usually enough if Valks are bunched up.
- Have 1 or both Mutilate rogues get deadly brew
- Just as backup, get arcane mages with Slow. If one of the valks goes away from the other two, ask them to use slow. The hunter trap should slow them initially, and give you about 5 seconds to call out what the mages need to slow.

Lastly, don't have your collapse point too close to the center for Valks. It sounds good in theory, but only leads to issues due to greater angles of spread that can be created for Valks shooting out.

We use two spots for Heroic LK 25, similar to what Juggernaut used for their kill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgg5maEdCI

The secret to using that spot is that you don't have to be very precise about collapsing, because the throne itself acts as correcting mechanism to push the Valks in the same dierection, as long as everyone is on the same side, with the iceblocked Tirion as reference point.