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Thread: Losing hate, guild afraid to have me tank in progression group need halp!

  1. #1
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    Losing hate, guild afraid to have me tank in progression group need halp!

    I don't have much issues normally but lately its been harder and harder to hold hate, with people getting higher dps. ive got a 5.7k gs and ill link my armory in a sec, but im just not sure what i can upgrade to fix my issues or if i need to change my rotation. Right now i just kinda spam every skill i have when its off cd and that normally works lol... i dnt know if there is a certain rotation i should be doing to increase my threat gain. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Pantythief i have different gloves now though, they are the 60 badge kraken gloves. its not all the time, but alot of the time, i have random people pull hate. any suggestions?

  2. #2
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    I'm not too knowledgable about endgame paladin tanking... but if you are having threat issues, I'm wondering about your expertise rating... maybe it's low?

    Your gear looks good. Gemmed for stam... not real convinced about your chest and cloak enchants but that wouldn't cause a threat issue...

    My only questions at face value would be skill rotations and expertise. Check those and wait for more feedback for expert pallies.

  3. #3
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    my Expertise is at 11, and whats wrong with my cloak? agi = doge parry and +10 all stacks = some HP + more agi and str for damage / avoidance

  4. #4
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    Crusade > Seals of the Pure in ICC (and everywhere else except Ulduar and a handful of 5-mans and stuff). 2% damage per point is extremely strong - Crusade also allows you to pick up a lot of goodies in the ret tree.

    Seal of Command is very nice for AoE tanking or 5-mans (worth the point in my opinion), Pursuit of Justice of course is very handy (consider moving these two points into Conviction if necessary, however this is a bit of a last resort for threat), but Vindication is pretty much required for any endgame tank. This has nothing to do with threat, but everything to do with survival - Vindication is equivalent to a fully buffed Demo Shout, and has a damn near 100% uptime, meaning that it reduces a ton of incoming melee damage. Definitely spec into it. http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufdxfMzbc is the recommended spec for an endgame Prot Paladin - note 1/2 Spiritual Attunement is really all you need for mana (and even that is overkill the majority of the time).

    You're way low on expertise, a problem exacerbated by the fact that you don't use the SoV glyph. Up to 26, expertise is your #1 threat stat - get the 10 expertise glyph, and seek out some upgrades with expertise or even gem a little if necessary. This is one of the reasons that Cataclysmic Chestguard is so good, because expertise is fairly rare on ICC tanking gear, and the chest + glyph + talents is enough to softcap a Paladin tank.

    I agree with the other poster on a few sketchy enchants, but the big things are - fix your spec for Crusade (and Vindication) and glyph SoV/save up for the Cat chest. I would also recommend Mongoose over Blade Ward, considering Mongoose's high uptime for Paladins and the amount of dodge and crit we get from Agility. It would also contribute to your threat, as 2% haste and and some crit far outweights a tiny amount of damage on parry.

    edit:
    whats wrong with my cloak? agi = doge parry and +10 all stacks = some HP + more agi and str for damage / avoidance
    Agility does give you dodge and a tiny amount of armor (and a little crit for threat), this is true, but +225 armor will be much more useful. Cloak enchants used to be a personal preference kind of thing, but given the increased value of armor in ICC it's no longer very close.

    +10 stats is OK, but +275 health contributes much more defensively. If you need more threat, 10 strength and some crit from agility is not going to help very much - and the armor and avoidance from 10 agility can't stack up against another 100something health.

  5. #5
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    Thanks I'll look into all this and fix what i can, greatly helpful, if any1 else has any things he may of missed please let me know!

  6. #6
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    You need to look at your rotation before looking at expertise or hit. Those stats are nice but if your threat is abysmal already, adding more stats will do little for you. Post your rotation please since your spec is already known.

    Also, the above posters are correct about your enchants, 225 armor and 275 hp. You should also buy the pvp 30 stam enchant for your shoulders and patch your gloves either for 18 stam or 240 armor. 2% threat addition is not doing much for you since your rotation is out of whack. Also, blade ward is horrible, Mongoose or Blood Draining instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  7. #7
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    Ok from what i can see on your armory is:

    - You have put 1 point in seal of command but you have the Glyph: Seal of venguence so you are waisting 10 free expertise
    (Note: Dont know what seal you are useing on boss fights)
    - Keeping Glyph of righous defence while your over hit capped (Your taunts apply to the melee hit cap) so you can loose that for Hammer of righous glyph (Then it hits 1 extra mob)
    - Get minor glyph of sense undeath because about 99% of the stuff in ICC is undeath you get 1% more damage !!
    - Get mongoose on your weapon is avoidance + Armor (Yes agi is armor)

    For the rotation is mostly 696969 (CD timers) but that may change on a certain fight
    There is no "ctrl" on Fluxx his keyboard... Fluxx is always in control.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluxx View Post
    - You have put 1 point in seal of command but you have the Glyph: Seal of venguence so you are waisting 10 free expertise
    (Note: Dont know what seal you are useing on boss fights)
    Seal of Command for trash, Seal of Vengeance for bosses. This is a perfectly viable spec/glyph choise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluxx View Post
    - Keeping Glyph of righous defence while your over hit capped (Your taunts apply to the melee hit cap) so you can loose that for Hammer of righous glyph (Then it hits 1 extra mob)
    Unmodified, taunts are subject to the spell hit cap of 17%. So it is only while keeping the glyph of righteous defense, that taunts become subject to the melee hit cap. (actually a little lower - 7.22%). So the only true part of that statement is that our tankadin-in-distress can afford to loose a bit of hit rating - which I expect would happen as soon as he ditches Judgement Heaume

    Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous are exclusively for aoe tanking and has it's niche in the big trash pulls of Wrath heroics (which is the only reason I'm keeping it). it is not required for any raid trash, and it is certainly not gonna help with single target boss threat!
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-12-2010 at 07:16 AM.
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
    Armory: Ajire@Scarshield Legion.EU

  9. #9
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    Genus,

    Please post your rotation and tell us if you are tab targeting. Also, when is it that you lose adds? Are we talking about trash pulls? LDW adds? Or did I misread and you mean the boss?

  10. #10
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    I did some changes to my spec, and glyphs, and i use Vengeance on bosses, and do just fine now, it was my expertise that did i think .. my whole guild noticed that it was alot harder to even come close in threat, my rotation has always been a 696969 rotation with a few 30cd's in there like shield / wrath on trash .. though Seal of Command i dont use that often like i thought i would. ANd i know blade warding isnt that viable anymore, but until i get a 264 weapon i think ill keep the chant i have. I think my new spec pretty much helped. Only issue i have with it just missing 1 point on Attunement for mana regen from heals .. but thats about it .. I am doing great now .. though threat wise Warrior tanks still out threat me... and dk's close behind with bear tanks ... i do alot better now that ih ave my expertise up.


    It was also 50/50 between trash and initial boss pulls, partly due to me being in iraq with 1k latency, makes taunts take 1 second to cast. and that can be bad for fights that have a boss that spawns after dialog with every1 already there. I sometimes have problem in 25man ICC with trash on Death whisper mostly because i dont have my 2piece T10 or 9 atm and that 2 seconds i have to wait on taunt really hurts. But things seem fine now that my expertise is up ... but .. you guys mentioned my glyphs? Check them again .. and tell me if they are wrong .... as far as i know Righteous Defense was a must for glyphs ... and i shouldnt have Hammer of Righteious anymore should be Vengence to replace that 1

    and yes i often tab target and try and hit new targets and switch back


    Say you already have threat on the boss, is taunting him when you already have threat a bad idea? It generates threat, my priest friend insists that taunting when you already have threat is bad and in no way helps.... can any1 enlighten me?
    Last edited by Genus; 05-17-2010 at 09:33 AM.

  11. #11
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    You will make the boss-taunt immune and then if he needs to be taunted, well.... raid wipe.

    I don't, and don't recommend anyone use taunt in their rotation. There is no gain to using it.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  12. #12
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    Taunts do not generate threat against a mob which is already attacking you. Hand of Reckoning damage won't even go off if the boss is still targeting you.

  13. #13
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    Unfortunately, you made so many changes at once, it is hard to say if it was one thing or a combination of small changes that added up. I can tell you, however, it is highly unlikely that the expertise was the fix. Many tanks have been threat monsters with very little expertise in the current raiding environment. Spec and rotation have much more to do with threat currently. I believe it was most likely the spec changes that made the biggest difference but I am glad to hear it is getting better.

    /agree with previous posters. The taunt is totally wasted (does nothing, not even the Hand of Reckoning dmg) if the target is currently targeting you. It DOES however, count toward taunt diminishing returns which will make the mob taunt immune.

  14. #14
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    i sware ive seen threat gen from Hand of Reckoning and ive never had him go taunt immune from spamming it other then oozes on Rot face

  15. #15
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    If someone is above you, but not above the threshold, i.e. a melee at 105% threat or ranged at 125% threat, it will bump you to their threat briefly. The mob still had not left you so it did nothing noticeable, especially since you will still need to outthreat that person from that point forward, which you apparently were not doing up to that point.

    I assure you, they will go taunt immune.

  16. #16
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    So what about my glyphs?

    ALso ive only changed talents and put them into Crusader, and changed 1 glyph to add expertise ... and all that increased my threat gen. my rotation hasnt changed ive had the same 1 ive used since i first hit 80

  17. #17
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    Glyphs look ok. As for talents, you really only need 1 in Improved Judgements but you need five in the tier and Improved Blessing of Might or Benediction isn't any better. I would consider putting an agil/stam gem in the red socket with the best bonus to preserve the meta and changing the other exp/stam gem to 30 stam.

  18. #18
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    I only have the expertise gems as a temp, until i get my tier legs or Cataclysmic chest piece

  19. #19
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    If you are raiding, it isn't temp. Sorry, tanks don't get the luxury that some dps do with temp gems. If you are raiding current content, you really should have the right gems and enchants.

    Having said that, I have too many alts and I understand the pain of replacing an epic gem with another epic gem. Sometimes, you have to call it "good enough for now". Not going to say more than that except that only you can draw that line for yourself. =)

  20. #20
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    Nah when i say temp, it means within the next week, (this coming week) ill have my item, those gems have only been there for a few days... they are new and only to increase my expertise to cap until i get my new item.

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