The change to an even more rigid currency based system for PvE content, similar to that of PvP content, provides easier access to higher level itemization sooner. You can have all of tier 9 without stepping foot inside of Trial of the Crusader, Ulduar, Naxxramas, Eye of Eternity, or Obsidian Sanctum. Now if you are to say that you are required to clear Naxxramas to be attuned to Icecrown Citadel. Or worse, you say Naxxramas must have been cleared to be attuned to Ulduar, the four keepers in Ulduar needed to be cleared to unlock Trial, and Trial needed to be cleared to unlock Icecrown... You provide someone with easy access to the second highest gear in order to prepare them for the newest content, but then require them to run content they effectively outgear in order to become attuned.
In the old systems of classic it made sense since there was a very clear progression path. You couldn't prepare yourself for a place like Blackwing Lair without having run the earlier instances. You couldn't prepare yourself for Naxxramas classic without running Blackwing Lair or Temple of Ahn'Qiraj. When Naxxramas first came out in classic, people didn't start earing tier two gear by running Blackrock Depths in order to make sure they were prepared for Naxxramas. Attunements served some purpose then because progression through the tiers was required. Burning Crusade started this way but shifted over time because attunements were gradually removed and gear was added to vendors that could be purchased through the currency system. You couldn't purchase tier 5 gear to prepare for teir 6, but you could purchase a fair quantity of tier 5 equivalent gear. Today, and in Cataclysm, you will be able to skip tiers because of how the currency systems work.
Should a raid that killed 25 man heroic Lich King, be required to run normal 25 man Lich King in order to attune subs to heroic difficulty because one person was out sick? Or is the system today where one person having done it enough.
I really don't see this happening...
End of Cataclysm, Tier 14
You run heroics and get all your Tier 13.
You are now required to go run Tier 11 content to be attuned to Tier 14... hope you brought along an enchanter.
Blizzard is just taking things in a different direction. Not to say they couldn't make a huge U-turn up ahead. But the way things are going it simply doesn't look that way.
Last edited by Quinafoi; 05-12-2010 at 01:41 PM.
"In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.
Trog, your question to numbers 1 and 2 have been answered in my earlier posts. Kaz shouldn't have to answer them, they've already been answered. Remember there's a difference between time investment and ease. Just because something requires a significant time investment doesn't mean it's difficult.
Edit: I'd like to point out that my counter idea to strict attunements is posted. And I would be interested in what people think of it.
Not all servers have the same population or interest. It doesn't "debunk" the first couple points. Just because the groups to run old content exist doesn't mean I can find time in RL to do them, even if I had the interest to do so. Not everyone views doing old content as fun. After spending months in Ulduar to get my drake I've developed a hatred for the place and might hurt myself (sarcasm) if I was forced to go back.Originally Posted by Trogdorrior
Those questions have not been answered. How do you distinguish a carried "bad" from a carried alt? especially if that alt is not in the same guild as the main and obtains a carry from the same non-affiliated guild. If a "bad" can purchase a carry, so can an alt, so where is the distinction? There is not a mechanic that restricts a player from joining a pug or carry run because they are just too good.
If, and only if, the alt MUST gain their attune with a raid consisting of Guild Members would a problem arise. So barring this highly unlikely requirement, there is no way to distinguish an alt from a "bad" in terms of accessability to attunement.
Last edited by Trogdorrior; 05-12-2010 at 01:48 PM.
In the situation I presented, using my own realm as an example, it certainly does debunk it. That point, as presented by Kaz, is posited as a universal truth, but is dependent on the realm, and as such, is not appropriate for a general argument for why attunement is bad. If the argument was why attunement was bad on server "x" then my point would, in fact, debunk nothing.It doesn't "debunk" the first couple points
Also, gorgonnash, dalaran, and a few other realms I play on have the same sort of activity. Also, if attunes DID become the norm, it would invariably shift any communities attitude towards old content.
I don't even know where to begin with that, Trog. It's very wrong, it's like you're not even reading the post I made for you to read. Hence why I can't continue arguing in this thread.
I gave an answer in my previous post but perhaps it was not clear. Time, lack of desire, gold, real life obligations, etc. All those are valid mechanics which make it more difficult to run multiple toons through attunements.
Last edited by bling581; 05-12-2010 at 01:54 PM.
With all due respect, this can be changed as follows:1) limits alts, and new players from current content, thus making recruitment hard
2) does nothing to prevent bad players from bypassing attunements
3) does cause hindrance to potential good players who are unlucky with attunement runs
4) adds more time to current raider weekly schedule to attune other guild members in an already intensive raiding schedule which leads to faster burnout
5) no way to guarantee old content is run properly, likely just blitzed through by overgeared people carrying others, this is NOT experiencing content, this is carrying through content, you don't even learn the fights in most cases, you just stand around, twiddle your thumbs, and get achievements/attunements, further expresses the concerns in #2
1.) Limits new characters (not players) progression.
Point 1 can both be resolved with simpler more modern ways of handling the attunements as Blizzard has done recently. As for New Players and Alts, they already suffer under the yoke of several attunements that don’t seem so harsh. ToC 5 man and ToC 5 heroic both require a specific gear level from players before they can use the Random Dungeon Finder to queue into them. So do the ICC 5 and ICC heroic 5 mans; and the later two of those also require a quest. I suspect that this was done as a trial in order to test how this kind of attunement system would go over with the populace.
Point 2 is not an actual negative of attunements. The attunement’s negative is simply to limit access to player progression. Even the worst of players can eventually get there, this is due to player controlled events, and is neither a negative nor a positive of attunements, but on player interaction instead.
Point 3 would be a non issue if the attunements were handled appropriately like the much more recent ones. Like it or not, there are ‘fixed’ attunements in game right now, that aren’t major obstacles or issues. Similarly, all new characters are limited, not just good ones that are unlucky, and as such can be summarized into the single point above.
Point 4 is a non issue if the attunement is handled appropriately. I think that Blizzard has learned a lot since its initial attunements and has a realization of what it should and shouldn’t be doing. Note the examples I listed. In none of those did they change raid week schedules at all; in fact, half of the attunements I listed didn’t even affect a raid instance.
Point 5 is very similar to point 4; however, it still stands that almost anything they do to extend the life cycle of content will eventually devolve into the same situation given enough gear creep. This is not actually a negative on attunements themselves, only on the reuse of older content.
Last edited by Selyndia; 05-12-2010 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Accidentally in Italics
Lulia, I have abolsutely read your threads. To be honest, if you don't like the way this thread is going, why continue to participate in it? You have the right to, but your response was short and, frankly, hurtful. Perhaps I have yet to fully understand the point you are trying to present.
I do have two points to present.
1. The word "bad" should not really register in this argument about attunement. I doubt anyone that uses this forum is a "bad" and I doubt anyone that is truly "bad", whatever the nebulous definition of that word is, is active in a raiding guild or has developed a rapport with top end players. The argument should apply to the people posting, the majority of "goods".
2. In my opinion, this forum is not about figuring out how we can pluck the weeds from our raiding garden. It is also not about one person presenting the end-all argument where every consecutive person stops to admire that post's splendor and the thread closes peacefully. If that was the case, the raid changes forum would not be at 60+ pages of valid and sometimes repetitive arguments. I do not mind having my points disputed and I have learned quite a few things from people refuting my posts. The point of this forum is for everyone to have a chance to voice their opinion.
When women were fighting for suffrage, what would have happened if they all stopped arguing for their rights after the first woman made a valid point in their defense? They would have been steam-rolled.
I argue that attunements will not implicitly hinder the development of alts or recruitment. The very argument that states that bads can be carried also applies to every other player, which is where my focus lies. If you, the player, choose to not pursue those requirements because you don't see it as worth it, even if that requirement is something as simple as dropping one boss, then that is the choice you make. Attunements are not holding a proverbial gun to any toons head forcing them to complete any content. Again, I contest that issues relating to play time, boredom, and just not feeling like it, are not productive arguments in this discussion.
Last edited by Trogdorrior; 05-12-2010 at 02:23 PM.
I wish I would have come up with this.Point 2 is not an actual negative of attunements. The attunement’s negative is simply to limit access to player progression. Even the worst of players can eventually get there, this is due to player controlled events, and is neither a negative nor a positive of attunements, but on player interaction instead.
Someone that stands in fire consistently, or cannot avoid other raid mechanics. Someone whose DPS is below a required threshhold for all raid members of a specific role to be at in order to down the boss. Someone whose healing isn't keeping people up. Someone who cannot hold aggro or stay alive. All of these things while they have gear that says they should be able to. That person is bad.
Last edited by Chamenas; 05-12-2010 at 02:38 PM. Reason: spelling
Bad players, read as bad skill wise as in cannot maintain proper DPS rotations and cannot do little things like dispel/purge or CC when needed or interrupt casts etc (I do not want to get into the heroics vs 10s vs 25s argument), should not be able to get the same quality gear as me. When I farm ToC hard mode for months and the first day of ICC I am able to (drops pending) replace 3 pieces of gear the very first time I step foot in there even with only 4 bosses open, that is bad for the game.
And I am not even the first person to say this either:
Someone that stands in fire consistently, or cannot avoid other raid mechanics. Someone who's DPS is below a required threshhold for all raid members of a specific role to be at in order to down the boss. Someone who;s healing isn't keeping people up. Someone who cannot hold aggro or stay alive. All of these things while they have gear that says they should be able to. That person is bad.
Because my friends alt hunter who hit 80 that day with just a few crafted/BOE epics the rest quest rewards when we did our alt/pug 25 ICC out DPSed a hunter with 4pc 264 set and random other 264 gear. Alts can carry themselves even in bad gear, good gear cannot make a bad player good.
Last edited by Darksend; 05-12-2010 at 02:39 PM.
Right, and Darksend mentioned some things that I didn't. That said, I disagree that they shouldn't have the same opportunities. I do, however, feel, that people such as Darksend should not feel obligated to carry such people, and they should certainly have a way to know whether someone is bad or not bad. Hence my idea in the other thread.
You missed the point of my post. I was stating that Kaz's examples were in opposition to each other. The only way that a "bad" could get gear is if they were carried. Any player, regardless of skill, can be carried. So that means that even good players and alts can be carried at least the same, if not with more frequency than "bads"
But to ask. Why does the word "bad" come up so often... and why are you so scared of them? It baffles me.
[QUOTE]Time, lack of desire, gold, real life obligations, etc. All those are valid mechanics which make it more difficult to run multiple toons through attunements./QUOTE]
None of those are mechanics developed by Blizzard that make it difficult. Those are all personal preferences of the player. Maybe gold could be a "mechanic" but Blizzard has made it very accessable if you are willing to take the time to get it. Again, leaving the decision in the players hands.
Because they waste our time. They steal our loot when they do not deserve it, and their attitude SUCKS. Quoting what I said in the other thread:
I have no problem with people who are new to the game, I will usually not invite them to my groups because in game time is my time. I will be the first person to help them out of game on the forums though, would I write the guides and work on the videos if I didn't want to help them. But when people waste my time in game or bother my with questions in game, that is me time, and it really bothers me when I see pugs walking around with loot that I should have but not for my terrible RNG I do not have them yet.Because most "bads" do not realize it and react to being called bad by raging and pulling the entire heroic and dropping group. They do not take the time to read forums and research their class or anything of the sort. People new to the game are not bad, they just do not know better. But to your point there should be some kind of system to differentiate between "bads" and "new"
No one is scared of them, nor have they implied being scared of them. Please don't make false assertions.
There's the main thing right there. They come in, expect to get loot for doing nothing, and waste my time in wipes that need not have happened. That's the people I define as bads. To distill it to two words: no effort.
And this is why I find you more tolerable here than several others who share your attitudes. I don't think I'd want to be in your guild running with you, but I do respect your accomplishments, and find your guides to be very helpful.
As far as new people, that's my attitude. I'm willing to help new people, but, they also have to be willing to help themselves/better themselves.
Having said all that, I share Kaz's opinion of attunements: pretty much worthless, because they don't really do anything but inconvenience people.
(Yes, I agreed with Darksend. Don't get used to it.)
Which again goes back to them not being willing to spend time at places like tankspot to become better at the game in the first place before stepping foot into a raid.
See, this is where you lose me.and it really bothers me when I see pugs walking around with loot that I should have but not for my terrible RNG I do not have them yet.
If you don't want to group with bad players, nothing is forcing you to. If it's so intolerable to spend the time with them, don't spend the time with them. There are plenty of ways to determine this.
But I don't get the loot elitism. If a bad player and a good player can both get the same gear, that gear isn't particularly special. Why do you care if someone else has better gear than you but is a worse player? Do you think they'll be as progressed as you? Do you think that the gear they have is in any way indicative of their skill?
There are plenty of ways to disambiguate between players' skill levels. Gear hasn't been one for a very long time. People were selling attunements for Vashj/Kael. People were selling attunements for Hyjal/BT, and even selling whole T6 sets before Sunwell. This gear didn't make you any more elite than your wallet. And that's not getting into those people who bought characters outright.
I just don't get this attitude at all. And I don't see how it helps forward the notion that attunements are a good way to solve it, either; it's not like attunements solved it before.
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