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Thread: DPS vs GS?

  1. #1
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    DPS vs GS?

    My gearscore is 5.2k
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...en&cn=Lottices
    In heroics, I usually pull 3.5k-3.8k DPS
    In OS 10 man I pulled 5.6k DPS
    Most raids I have 5k+ DPS
    I never did ICC since I hope to up my DPS and GS
    Anyone have suggestions? Is my DPS as good as it should be?
    THANKS!

  2. #2
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    I'm no mage expert... but your spec is some kind of messed up.

  3. #3
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    It's almost never a good idea to pile all of your points into one tree--usually every tree has a couple PvP, survivability, soloing, specialized, whatever talents you don't need when you're not PvPing/levelling.

    Also, your gearing is kind of... odd. You have mp5 pieces, which is understandable sometimes if you can't get anything to drop, but buying mp5 pieces with badges isn't advisable. And gemming mp5 is a terrible idea--if you really really need a blue gem (socket bonus is amazing or activating meta gem) you should go for spirit as (I think?) mages, like warlocks, get some use out of it. And the resilience gem isn't going to do you any good, especially as its in your PvE belt.

  4. #4
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    I know the popular arcane spec, 57/3/11, so I guess it's time for another respec, I'll look it up. Thanks

  5. #5
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    And I'll have to get some new gems, I agree, as I rarely pvp

  6. #6
    You also need to give up on the crit/spellpower gear and start looking for gear that gives haste. Your priority on an arcane mage (specced correctly) is Haste and Spellpower. Crit is nice if it's on there, but it doesn't need to be. Also, as a properly specced arcane mage you only need 210 hit for raids.

    Honestly there is so much more you could do with your gearing and spec, as well as your gems and enchants. My advice is to download Rawr after you respec, and use it to decide what gear you need (get your 4pc t9 asap until you get your 2pct10). Also, WoW-Heroes is better than gearscore because it properly ranks your pvp items as well as your gems and enchants because all it looks at is pve performance, so you take quite a hit using any pvp item.

    On OS3D rush I pulled 12kdps sustained at a 5200GS when I had 2pct9 2pct10. It was rush, and we were under the effects of heroism for almost the whole fight, but it was pretty nice.

    You can do a lot more than you are now.

    Cry Havoc! And let slip the Ghosts of War..


  7. #7
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    Yeah have to agree on what goros said about you beeing able to pull more. I had only 5.2 GS on my dps set (offspec, DK tank usually) until fairly recently and I could easily pull 7k or more on Sartharion and the good mages with the same GS as me pretty much always beat me (especially on OS3D since its so short).

  8. #8
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    Get a cookie cutter arcane spec, watch out for any spec with incanter's absorbtion, it's no longer good since it was nerfed in 3.3.3.

    Your meta gem should be a chaotic skyflare, +21 crit and +3% increased crit dmg. Reckless ametrines for yellow sockets, purified dreadstones for blues, and runed rubies for reds, all assuming a decent SP or haste socket bonus. If the bonus is anything else (spirit, hit, crit, etc.) ignore it and gem straight SP.

    You're way over hit cap, drop the hit trinket for the haste one from ToC reg.

    Lose the resilience head glyph and shoulder inscriptions.

  9. #9
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    Hey all new to the site love it But heres my problem....
    Ok i seem to be having the same problem i was in Voa today and watched a mage in PvP gear with less gear score then me doing a steady 7-8k dps while im stuck at 4-5k Ive look for any if i can my last step before i re-roll is ask for you all to look it over and tell me where it my be Thanx all
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Port%C3%A4john

  10. #10
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    Okay, it's time to come out of the closet:

    I do a little messing around with a mage also:

    http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...gion&cn=Nitiga

    (- which of course is in pvp-gear at the time of writing, but swap the pvp pieces for Strip of Remorse (with one 23sp), Bloodmage Robe (with one 23sp and one 12sp/10spi and +10 all stats enchant) and Band of the Invoker (with +23sp enchant))

    GS is about 5.3k and simucrafting put this spec and gear well above 8k sustained dps on a patchwerk-style fight...

    But I usually average just below 5k without popping cooldowns and I have yet to breach the 6k barrier, even with cooldowns.

    I use the standard arcane rotation of 4 x Arcane Blast and then Arcane Missiles, regardless of Missile Barrage Proc. A macro to ensure that Presence of mind is on constant cooldown. Arcane Barrage and Fire Blast for those fights on the move. Molten armor for shield

    So what exactly is it that I'm doing wrong? Not fast enough to push my buttons? Latency? Critical buffs missing?
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
    Armory: Ajire@Scarshield Legion.EU

  11. #11
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    My mage, which used to be my main in BC, is now my 4th (in time spent in raids) rading toon, so my research and comments may not be bleeding edge.

    Arcane is all about mana management. If you have mana left when the boss dies, you left some damage on the table. Ideally you would be casting your last spell and going OOM just as he/she hits zero HP. The most damage you can put out in the short term is by spamming AB endlessly, but a 4 stack AB costs so much that it's impossible to keep up, thus starving you of mana and then requiring a much more conservative rotation and lowering your overall damage. Sometimes you want to spam 4 stack AB for a bit, like when under hero/bloodlust, or if you have some type of temp buff or mechanic that is boosting your damage (icehowl's daze, speed or wild magic pots, icy veines), or if the boss is low on health and you have enough mana to know that he will die before you go oom.

    Use your mana gems as soon as your bar is down enough that it won't be wasted. Time evocations so the cast wont' be interrupted due to required movement or pushed back due to some damage mechanic. A good tip is to use evocation right at the end of IV, icy veines makes spells immune to pushback so you know you'll get the full benefit of evo, and you've been casting more than a few four stacked ABs during IV anyway so you'll probably be low on mana.

    On the subject of hit rating, an arcane mage with 3/3 in arcane focus and 3/3 in precision, with a spell hit debuff (improved FF from a boomkin or misery from a shadow priest) only needs 210 hit rating. If you're alliance and you are a draenei or have one in your group that number drops to a paltry 184. It's almost hard not to be way over hit cap, so choose your gear carefully. Avoid hit rating trinkets as many times the only benefit you're getting from them is the use/proc effect.

    @Portäjohn, your meta gem is wrong, see the gem recommendations I posted above. Spell penetration is useless for PVE, spririt is always better than MP5 (looking at your cloak) as it increases the amount of crit you get from molten armor.

    @Ajire Your spec needs some tweaking, you're missing torment of the weak. A common misconception about this talent is that bosses are immune to movement slows, so it doesn't work on bosses. While bosses may be immune to movement slows, they are not immune to attack speed slows, which is also considered a "slowing effect". Most tanks or other raid members keep up slowing effects on raid bosses so this talent is almost always a large dps boost.

    The spec/glyphs I'd use is http://www.wowhead.com/talent#of0Vsu...xedcZbGc0o:Niz
    Last edited by Akeber; 05-12-2010 at 11:32 AM.

  12. #12
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    Ok thanx alot Akeber im making the changes i can and see how that does

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Portajohn View Post
    Hey all new to the site love it But heres my problem....
    Ok i seem to be having the same problem i was in Voa today and watched a mage in PvP gear with less gear score then me doing a steady 7-8k dps while im stuck at 4-5k Ive look for any if i can my last step before i re-roll is ask for you all to look it over and tell me where it my be Thanx all
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Port%C3%A4john
    First, lose the purified lunar dust and the healer rep ring. You need to be using the right gear. mp5 is for healers, not for dps. Also replace your meta and your gems - don't necessarily try to get the socket bonus, on some pieces it's not worth the dps loss. As for your rotation, you should be using abx4 am (but only if the proc is up). Otherwise you should be using abx4 then Arcane Barrage (sometimes triggers a proc of barrage for when you start your abx4 stack again). Also, doing abx3 pom ab sometimes triggers a proc also. You don't want to use arcane missiles unless the proc is up because you lose dps due to casting time involved.

    You really, really need to get a 2pct9/2pct10 or 4pc t10 bonus. It far outweighs any benefit from 264 gear regardless of stats. I also suggest getting some advice on setting up your macro's, as you can stack your damage like a mini heroism (AP/IV/Potion of Wild Magic/Mirror Image) and put macros in place to refill your mana (macro together mana gems with arcane missiles, or example). If you have the 2pc t10 you actually change the rotation to abx3 am (on proc) because it will keep your 2pct10 haste bonus up 100% of the time, and in turn you're going to burn less mana.

    You should also put your pom into your rotation after 3ab when it's up, because the extra mana cost vs instant 20k crit dps boost can't be ignored. Generally speaking on a bossfight when I can go all out without much moving (saurfang) I'll pull ~10kdps with spikes at the beginning (my personal mini-heroism) of around 25k and at 30% with heroism when i can spike back up to around 15k. I have ~30k base mana, and will use 2 mana gems and 1 evocation during the fight, approximately 5.5 minutes.

    Here is a recent log of 25 man saurfang, my mage is Aliiza.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...?s=4346&e=4668
    Also, here is my armory http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...onde&cn=Aliiza

    Here is a video of the basic arc mage rotation I made before I hit 4pc t10 and made my spammable arcane missiles macro. I need to update it because I popped pom too early in this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKFwUz1O8pQ
    Last edited by Goros; 05-12-2010 at 12:00 PM.

    Cry Havoc! And let slip the Ghosts of War..


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajire View Post
    Okay, it's time to come out of the closet:

    I do a little messing around with a mage also:

    http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...gion&cn=Nitiga

    (- which of course is in pvp-gear at the time of writing, but swap the pvp pieces for Strip of Remorse (with one 23sp), Bloodmage Robe (with one 23sp and one 12sp/10spi and +10 all stats enchant) and Band of the Invoker (with +23sp enchant))

    GS is about 5.3k and simucrafting put this spec and gear well above 8k sustained dps on a patchwerk-style fight...

    But I usually average just below 5k without popping cooldowns and I have yet to breach the 6k barrier, even with cooldowns.

    I use the standard arcane rotation of 4 x Arcane Blast and then Arcane Missiles, regardless of Missile Barrage Proc. A macro to ensure that Presence of mind is on constant cooldown. Arcane Barrage and Fire Blast for those fights on the move. Molten armor for shield

    So what exactly is it that I'm doing wrong? Not fast enough to push my buttons? Latency? Critical buffs missing?
    Change your spec and make sure TTW is in it, you don't really need your points in SotM. You have waaaaay too much hit (you only need 210) and are losing dps because of it. The ilvl 245 wand off the badge vendor is better than what you are using now, and you should try for the frozen bonespike and shriveled heart for your weapon and offhand (haste>crit). Aim for buying your t10 head & shoulders, since the t10 gloves & pants drop in VoA. You can't pass up the dps boost from your 2pc (and eventually 4pc) t10 gear. Have someone make you a merlins robe, and try to get your meteor chaser's raiment after you have 2pct10.

    Then, set up some macros and practice your rotation on a dummy till it's second nature. remember to change to 3abam on proc with 2pct10 due to the haste bonus.

    Cry Havoc! And let slip the Ghosts of War..


  15. #15
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    While I appriciate you reply, I must ask for some clarification and reasoning:

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    Change your spec and make sure TTW is in it
    Why? Raid bosses have a tendency to be immune to snares.

    Edit: Okay nvm this one, Akeber pointed out that effects like Judgements of the Just falls into the "slowing" category as well.

    You have waaaaay too much hit (you only need 210) and are losing dps because of it.
    (I know perfectly well how much hit I need, thank you) And what should I do about it? There are no hit gems or enchant on any of my gear (Oh well almost - have an icewalker for the crit, not much better to get there anyway), so I guess I'm stuck with it for the time being.

    The ilvl 245 wand off the badge vendor is better than what you are using now
    Now it's getting really amusing: You complain I have too much hit rating, and then ask me to go pick up a wand with more... hit rating and not much else.

    you should try for the frozen bonespike
    That drops in 25 man, which, I'm affraid, do not have very much oppotunity to raid, let along wait for the RNG to come out in my favour (Besides, got my hands on the Cadaver staff from 10 man festergut tonight)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    Aim for buying your t10 head & shoulders
    Got head and chest already thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    since the t10 gloves & pants drop in VoA
    Again, reliance on RNG's in this manner is unacceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    Have someone make you a merlins robe
    Been there, and have moved on. Using the t10 chest now, it that so terrible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    and try to get your meteor chaser's raiment after you have 2pct10.
    See above.

    I must congratulate you on providing so much information, yet not answering my question: I'm not really concerned about stats and scaling factors, I've read all the theory and as mentioned, simucrafting puts my theoretical dps well in line with other mages of similar gearscore.

    But when I go to a training dummy and start doing the stuff, I see only half that dps - why?
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-12-2010 at 06:42 PM.
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
    Armory: Ajire@Scarshield Legion.EU

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    Ajire Your spec needs some tweaking, you're missing torment of the weak. A common misconception about this talent is that bosses are immune to movement slows, so it doesn't work on bosses. While bosses may be immune to movement slows, they are not immune to attack speed slows, which is also considered a "slowing effect". Most tanks or other raid members keep up slowing effects on raid bosses so this talent is almost always a large dps boost.
    I wasn't aware of this - then it makes much more sense.

    But, I'm affraid that you, like Goros, didn't graps the essence of my problem: I'm not currently doing 8k dps and looking to get it "tweaked" to do 9k. No - For reasons I have outlined, I should be able to do more dps than 4.9k, even with the spec and gear I have now. That's what I'd like to know:

    It it because I have somewhat high latency (~200 mostly)?
    Am I simply slow on the buttons? I know a seconds hesitation can mean much for the dps, but can it mean that much?
    Is it because I usually do not raid with a shaman and is missing the wrath of air totem?
    etc etc etc - all those small things where where you can screw up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    At least I got the glyphs right and I'll see about that TtW

    But I'm keeping my improved frostbolt and slow - We wouldn't have got saurfang tonight if I hadn't kept both beasts under control using these two neat thinges
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
    Armory: Ajire@Scarshield Legion.EU

  17. #17
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    Okay, I've made a few tweaks:

    Got TtW in my spec now, at the expense of SotM. (question: If the tank or other raid members for some reason do not provide an attack speed slowing effect, is it then feasible to sacrifice a GCD now and then myself to put slow on the target?)

    Made the Windows registry entry modification trick, which has cut my latency by about 50% (~90 ms now)

    Integrated Presence of Mind, Arcane Power and Icy veins in my rotation through macros such that they pop automatically as soon as they are off cooldown. (which may not always be the most optimal time)

    This have had some improvement, and I'm now fairly consistently doing 5.5-6k dps in heroics (Haven't had time to test it in a raid setting yet. EDIT: Tested in VoA 25 last night, just hit 7k for the first time ever!)

    Any other tips and tricks for improving play style is welcome
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-15-2010 at 08:25 AM.
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
    Armory: Ajire@Scarshield Legion.EU

  18. #18
    You need to be spamming your buttons. Also, don't put your AP/IV/Pot/Mirror Image with a spellcast, you should have it as a mini-heroism button.

    I usually open with ABx3, PoM, AB, then my macro for AP/IV/Potion of Wild Magic/Mirror Image, then pop my arcane missiles (because barrage proc is always up). Then I use ABx3 AM(proc) to keep the 12% haste up 100% of the time. When your PoM is up, use it after abx3 (it adds 30% crit chance for 1 spell) and then usually your barrage procs if it hasn't already and you can use your missiles. Rinse & repeat.

    Make macros so your AB doesn't interrupt your channeled spells (making your AM spammable when you're on ab3 or ab4) and make sure your damage trinket (if you use one) is tied to your AB.

    Other than that it's really about using your procs correctly.

    For the record, you won't see 8-9k dps on a target dummy because you won't have raid buffs. Self buffed you should see spikes of around 15k, but average out over 3 minutes or so @ 6-7k dps self buffed if you're doing it correctly.

    Also, I recommend against the t10 chest because it's not best in slot. Best in slot 264 gear is t10.5 head, shoulders, legs, gloves and Meteor Chaser's Raiment. waste of 95 frost badges when you could have gone best in slot. 277 Tiered chest is best in slot, but if you aren't raiding that level, it does you no good to spend badges on that.

    As for your RNG's reliance comment (and your attitude in general is pretty crappy) I meant wait for the gloves & pants last IN CASE they drop (as opposed to wasting badges you could be spending on a belt, chest, etc). For my mage, both dropped within a week of each other and I was the only mage in the 10 man's. When I looked at your toon you didn't have the t10 chest and head. You had only 1pc of T10 when I glanced (and no bonus).

    Also, for someone who knows so much already you sure do seem ready to jump down someone's throat for trying to help you.

    My advice at the end of the day is: Stack your dps boosters together as the %'s add up and end up doing more for you than spreading them out.
    Last edited by Goros; 05-15-2010 at 05:57 PM.

    Cry Havoc! And let slip the Ghosts of War..


  19. #19
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    Thank you Goros, your second answer here was much more usefull!

    Think a little clearing the air is in order

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    As for your RNG's reliance comment (and your attitude in general is pretty crappy) [...]
    Also, for someone who knows so much already you sure do seem ready to jump down someone's throat for trying to help you
    The reason I took on a "crappy attitude", was because your first answer was pretty much nonsensical to what I had asked. I asked how to get the full potential out of what I currently had, not how to spec or gear for an even higher theoretical dps. I kindda feel I got off on the wrong foot there

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    When I looked at your toon you didn't have the t10 chest and head. You had only 1pc of T10 when I glanced (and no bonus).
    I seem to recall that I wrote explicitely that my toon was in pvp gear at the time and went on to list those things I use for pve, the T10 chest included. And that's essentially what pissed me off: you glanced. To me, it seemed that you did not actually read what I had written, but rather gave me an off-the-shelf standart reply to the most obvious flaws you could spot on a glance, which incidently was missing TtW (which I freely admit was an error out of ignorance on my part) and too much hit rating (which I'd almost be willing to wager a bottle of Amarone della Valpolicella that every arcane mage has to varying degree, due to the ridiculous amount of bonus hit obtained through talents).

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    My advice at the end of the day is: Stack your dps boosters together as the %'s add up and end up doing more for you than spreading them out.
    The problem I personally had with having macroed AP and IV in a mini heroism button was that I never did pop them except when the raidleader said "pop cooldowns" - having them tied with AM ensures that they are actually being put to use as often as possible, and I can see an improvement on the dps chart (mind you, I'm not arguing that this is the best use of these boosters, there are still too few numbers in for that, only that it's better than what I did before).

    Otherwise, Thanks for you input, it's definitely helpful, especially that [nochanneling] tip
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-16-2010 at 04:38 AM.
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
    Armory: Ajire@Scarshield Legion.EU

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajire View Post
    Thank you Goros, your second answer here was much more usefull!


    The reason I took on a "crappy attitude", was because your first answer was pretty much nonsensical to what I had asked. I asked how to get the full potential out of what I currently had, not how to spec or gear for an even higher theoretical dps. I kindda feel I got off on the wrong foot there
    Usually you start with the basics because chances are people really have no idea how to play their toons. People can read stuff, say they understand it, and still pull 5k dps when they should be pulling 7-8k. In 90% of those cases, you start from the beginning again. ESPECIALLY when you see a spec lacking TTW and using SoTM - it's a pretty clear sign that you're dealing with (no offense) a noob.

    Also, as far as the mini heroism, you use it on open, and because of the way the cooldowns work you can get it off one more time in the fight, just try not to stack it with heroism. You can get PoM's off pretty frequently, and you can get your AP and IV off separate from your images if you time it right. It's all about controlling cooldowns and using them at the right time. I personally use Heatsink and powerauras because they tell me when I have procs up as well as when they will come back up (things with internal timers like lightweave and my trinket, etc). Anything you can do to stack it so your damage dealing effects are stacked as closely as possible to each other.

    Cry Havoc! And let slip the Ghosts of War..


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