+ Reply to Thread
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 185

Thread: Mongoose/Bladeward/Blood Draining.... Why pick any of them?

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,602
    wooh 5 stam worth of EHP...
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    642
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    wooh 5 stam worth of EHP...
    To be fair, people regularly skip +9 Stam socket bonuses and gem full +Stam for a net gain of 6 Stamina on that piece so it's not entirely unreasonable for someone to want to get 52 Armor (~5 Stam of EH as you mentioned) consistently on their weapon when they're just as likely to make similar statistical sacrifices to gain 6 Stam.



  3. #83
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,602
    ya, but then you're only giving up like 10 agi or 10 defense as opposed to the MUCH MUCH larger benefits of any other weapon enchant. Hell potency is even better by that standard.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon
    Blood draining is a smart heal when you need it, though I would gladly take 200 stam worth of REAL ehp any day than 200 stam worth of effective healing, but that's not the enchants blizzard gave us. The only enchant that provides anything close to what might be considered "reliable" EHP (not necessarily life saving EHP, just EHP) is blood draining.
    You, as well as the others who truly believe in the quoted statement, should really go further with the inference. If the premise of this statement is valid, there can be only one logical conclusion - you're basically throwing the classical theory of the EH metric down the toilet.

    Blood Draining has an internal cooldown of 10 seconds. Furthermore, its application has a 50% chance to proc off the corresponding triggers. This leads to a minimum time between applications of at least 10 seconds (although the average time would be something like 11+ seconds in reality). In a time frame of 10 seconds the typical ICC boss (1.0 base swing timer) performs at least 8 (auto)attacks, plus various specials (physical or not).

    Yet you claim that Blood Draining grants EH. It might... if you are willing to reject the very foundation of an EH-like metric, the infamous "worst case scenario". Make up your mind.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,602
    In the "worst case scenario" (no external heals, not avoiding anything) it absolutely is EH. It heals you for 2k (assuming you don't go from 36%+ to dead) and that might as well be tacking on 2k HP onto your HP pool.

    It is not exactly "EH" since it's a heal, in reality it is effective healing (hence the caveat that I would prefer "reliable" EH).

    At the point in time it grants you hit points that you wouldn't have already had, then it is EH, just not EH that is as reliable as actually having 2k more hit points. If it is needing to proc within (or every) 10 seconds (and btw, bleeds also increase stacks, between bleeds, normal attacks, and special attacks, as a warrior you get in more than enough attacks to get 5 stacks in) then I have three contentions:
    1) You are still getting some healing out of it, even if it's only 400 or 800 HP, that's still HP that you didn't or don't have with another enchant.
    2) Something is probably going wrong in the fight if you are dipping to 35% that often
    3) It is still more efficent than any of the other enchants that provide EH. Like I said, the efficiency of the healing from blood draining would have to drop below 14% in order for it to be worse than the EH from mongoose assuming mongoose had a 100% uptime, since it's closer to 30%, you'd need blood draining to drop to like 5% efficiency. And like I said, if you're yo-yoing that much, something is very very wrong.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon
    In the "worst case scenario" (no external heals, not avoiding anything) it absolutely is EH.
    OK, let's go step-by-step and dodge confusions :
    Scenario A
    The tank has a base HP pool (as in "maximum value") of 70k at t=0, before any incoming attack. At t=1 s, an attack event occurs - the tank still has 70k base HP. Iteratively, at t=11 s, after 10 attack events have already occurred - the tank's base HP is still 70k. In any 10s time frame, this value is a constant.
    Scenario B
    The tank has a base armor class (as in "default value") of 40k at t=0, before any incoming attack. At t=1 s, an attack event occurs - the tank still has 40k base AC. Iteratively, at t=11 s, after 10 attack events have already occurred - the tank's base AC is still 40k. In any 10s time frame, this value is a constant.
    Scenario C
    The tank uses an weapon enchanted with 26 agility - (s)he gets 52 armor in return at t=0, before any incoming attack. At t=1 s, an attack event occurs - the tank still gets 52 AC. Iteratively, at t=11 s, after 10 attack events have already occurred - the tank still gets 52 AC. In any 10s time frame, this value is a constant.
    Scenario D
    Alternatively, the tank uses a weapon enchanted with Blood Draining. At t=1 s, an attack event occurs - the tank gets below 35%, Blood Reserve is consumed. The following 8+ incoming attack events simply ignore Blood Draining, as the internal cooldown takes its toll. In any 10s time frame, Blood Draining only counts as EH once (assuming that the attack event that should consume Blood Reserve doesn't kill the tank by itself). How can one know a priori that there aren't any other burst windows in the 10+ time frame in which Blood Draining is certainly ineffective ?

    I'll rephrase : I've said/claimed nothing about Blood Draining in comparison with other options. No "omg it's amazing", no "ffs it is teh suck". I've merely pointed out that one cannot bend the mechanics of Blood Draining around an EH-like metric.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,602
    If you haven't died or been healed to full, then it doesn't matter if it only counted once, it's still 2k more HP.

    It is the closest EHP equivalent enchant, and far better than any of the other options. It's still internal hit points you didn't have. And still increases survivability the most.

    Would I take a 50 stam enchant over it? Hell yes.

    Does one exist?

    No.

    Edit: I'm going to expand on this. Gonna use a warrior with 50k hit points to make the math on this easy.

    Warrior with 50k hit points gets hit to 30% (20k hit points)

    Blood draining procs, now the tank has 22k hit points (2k more than you had, the equivalent of having 52k hit points and being hit down to 22k).

    Regardless of if blood draining doesn't proc again, you still have 22k hit points.

    Get healed for 20k after that? now you have 42k hit points instead of 40k hit points. Get hit again for 30k? Now you have 12k hit points instead of 10k hit points, even if blood draining doesn't proc. If it does proc again, even if it's for ~1k, not the full 2k, now you have 3k more hit points than you would have had and now you're at 13k instead of 10k.

    It only resets if you get healed to full or die. On most fights you should not be yo-yoing so much between 100% and 35% that often every 10 seconds. Even if you are, I still take 2k HP half the time over any other enchant.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 06-04-2010 at 09:18 AM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    721
    Blood draining is an up to 2k heal. The efficiency of blood draining would have to drop to ~14% for it to be worse than mongoose in terms of EHP if you assume mongose has a 100% uptime, which it DOES NOT, especially for warriors.
    There is no guarantee that blood draining provides any healing, or any relevant healing. Counting it as EHP is very, very incorrect; healing is not the same as health. You wouldn't count iLotP as EHP, would you?

    That isn't to say that it's better or worse than mongoose for harder fights, but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you say.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    1,548
    +26 Agi IS the only actual top end EH enchant available. Pretending anything else is just looks silly. Proc enchant is proc. EH has to be constant in worst case scenario.


    I'm not trying to say it's the best. I'm just trying to get the EH discussion out of the blood draining discussion. They're not comparable.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,900
    26 Agi IS the only actual top end EH enchant available
    The argument here is 26 Agi is alright... against physical damage. Blood Draining is reliable enough to use as a pseudo 'EH' enchant. It isn't the same as a proc enchant like mongoose or blade warding, and unless the healers are slacking, you can rely on a 2k heal for any fight currently except LK (as he does the yo-yo).
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,602
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    It is the closest EHP equivalent enchant, and far better than any of the other options.
    Am I saying it is EHP? No. I'm saying it is the closest equivalent and the best option tanks have. 26 agi is piddily at best, especially considering the options.

    You guys are debating semantics here. The point is blood draining is the best.

    Edit: to continue what melvar said:

    The only time you can't count on blood draining is:

    If you get hit from 36% and up to dead.
    If you don't have any blood draining stacks at all (which is unlikely at best).
    If you are in the 10 second cooldown area... in which case it already has proced so you DID count on it.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    1,632
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    The point is blood draining is the best.
    /thread.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    721
    The only time you can't count on blood draining is:

    If you get hit from 36% and up to dead.
    If you don't have any blood draining stacks at all (which is unlikely at best).
    If you are in the 10 second cooldown area... in which case it already has proced so you DID count on it.
    You also can't count on it at any time when you would be healed up to full and it procs. In which case its value is zero.

    And once again, it is at absolute best a 2k heal every 50 seconds. At best it is 40 HPS. The amount of damage that 26 agility would mitigate is significantly greater over a fight than 40 damage healed. If it does proc all the time - like it often does on LK - it is healing for a mighty 400 every time.

    In addition, mongoose has significant uptime advantages when dealing with multiple mobs that blood draining cannot have, depending on the class (this is better for bears and warriors).

    Ultimately if you must, must, must have some measure of healing no matter what, blood draining is going to potentially give some slight advantage over mongoose in certain situations. But don't mistake it for EHP or even thinking about it as EHP or even related to EHP; if you do, you'll start looking at the stupid ony trinket as being awesome because it provides 100 HP5.

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Warrior with 50k hit points gets hit to 30% (20k hit points)
    40%


    But either way, I think the point is summed up by your first sentence:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon
    If you haven't died or been healed to full, then it doesn't matter if it only counted once, it's still 2k more HP.
    "If" is the keyword that makes Blood Draining unsuitable for "true" EH calculations (or "classical" EH calculations if you prefer tlitp's wording, though that leads my physicist brain to ask about "quantum" EH). "If" is what kills tanks.

    To illustrate, here's a scenario where Blood Draining contributes nothing to your healing-inclusive EH metric:

    Player starts at 50%
    Melee for 30% (at 20%)
    Blood Draining heals for 3%, stacks set to 0 (at 23%)
    Player healed to full (at 100%)
    Melee for 30% (at 70%)
    Random environmental damage for 15% (at 55%)
    Melee for 30% (at 25%)
    Melee for 30% (Dead)

    From the player being healed to full and death, you have 3 melees and an environmental damage tick (Malleable Goo, Blight ticks, Frost Aura ticks, or whatever). If that happens in less than 10 seconds (reasonable, since it can happen as quickly as 3-4 seconds in ICC), Blood Draining had no chance to build up a new stack because of the 10-second internal cooldown. So there are very real scenarios where Blood Draining contributes 0 to your healing-inclusive EH model.

    Does that make Blood Draining a bad enchant? No, of course not. It's the only enchant that gives you anything resembling extra health, and it's trigger is logical. It's a good enchant for survival.

    But because it's not reliable - i.e. it cannot be guaranteed to give you any EH benefit in an arbitrary x-second window - it shouldn't be counted as EH, just the same as the Ashen Verdict ring proc or any other temporary buff with less than 100% uptime.

    You're right that the argument is mostly semantic, but that doesn't mean that the argument is wrong. It means that you shouldn't call it "EHP" because it isn't. 26 AGI is the only current enchant that truly gives EHP. I wouldn't fault a tank that wants a guaranteed EH boost over Blood Draining, even though I think that Blood Draining is probably more likely to save you.
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    1,632
    Quote Originally Posted by theckhd View Post
    Does that make Blood Draining a bad enchant? No, of course not. It's the only enchant that gives you anything resembling extra health, and it's trigger is logical. It's a good enchant for survival.

    But because it's not reliable - i.e. it cannot be guaranteed to give you any EH benefit in an arbitrary x-second window - it shouldn't be counted as EH,
    I agree it probably shouldn't be counted as EH, regardless because of the first part you sited Ill take it any day over the other options.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    That Place Above the USA
    Posts
    2,282
    I'd like to bring up, there are class differences when considering enchants.

    *Bear looking confused at Blade Ward on his Tank weapon*

    Aside from the actual arguments already put forth for all tanks endorsing mongoose, a little extra crit to proc Savage Defense is not a bad thing. Therefore, I seriously question any bear who doesn't pick mongoose, even with the proc nerf. And yeah, I know this is trying wrap a shield like mechanic to an EH metallity, I agree with tlitp's reasoning, but you can't deny a little extra Savage Defense uptime is a good thing for the EH in a hand-waving sense.

    Paladins get more benefits from agility than warriors (and DKs, but DKs shouldn't really be in this argument).

    Get Mongoose if a Druid
    Get Blood Draining if a warrior

    Paladins are where the argument is at, especially if you factor in the melee proc rate nerf if it bites into the 30% uptime on mongoose.

    Finally I submit that the amount of healing on Blood Draining is so small, you get more benefits from stacking spriests/HealSpring Shamans/a Judgement of Light if you are missing a pally/etc. than even the most optimistic portrayal of Blood Draining. But I stand behind it for warriors because quite frankly, they got the short end of the stick when it comes to tanking enchants. They really should have designed the enchant to have a smaller but more constant benefit to be useful.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    642
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    2) Something is probably going wrong in the fight if you are dipping to 35% that often
    There are a few fights in Heroic ICC, most notably the Lich King, where dipping beneath 35% is almost on a per-swing basis. I've actually switched the enchant on my weapon from Mongoose to Blood Draining to try it out next time we face the big guy based in part on your posts, but I suspect I'll be seeing lots of miniheals during phase one rather than a huge one at any point. Since I'm on the adds, however, I'm hoping I can build it up a little higher during Phases 2 and 3 to help when I taunt for Soul Reaper.



  18. #98
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,900
    during phase one rather than a huge one at any point
    Having just done 25 LK last night, I can tell you that I didn't recieve the heal from the enchant at all in P1 from Arthas, and I didn't see AD proc from the paladin tanking the adds. Soul reapers are about the only time I have ever had my health drop that low on LK, other than that the healers should be able to keep up.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Williamsburg, VA
    Posts
    719
    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Having just done 25 LK last night, I can tell you that I didn't recieve the heal from the enchant at all in P1 from Arthas, and I didn't see AD proc from the paladin tanking the adds. Soul reapers are about the only time I have ever had my health drop that low on LK, other than that the healers should be able to keep up.
    Heroic or Normal? I ask because even the adds on heroic 10m are punching me in the face for around 45k during their frenzy.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,900
    Regular, with a hunter/stuns. If you are doing heroic, I would hope you are trying to tranq/stun the big guys when they enrage.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts