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Thread: Mongoose/Bladeward/Blood Draining.... Why pick any of them?

  1. #61
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    Looked everywhere and found nothing to discuss the effectiveness but Blood Draining does not scale with increased healing buff in ICC. So even though it's the "EH enchant" it doesn't get stronger for ICC and thus still decreases in effectiveness as gear and content get harder. I'll probably go back to 26 agi but plan on getting more data via 10man HM.

  2. #62
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    If Blade Ward didn't have such an abysmal proc rate then I'd rather view it as a threat/dps enchant than survivability. It simply doesn't proc enough.

    I have been debating my weapon enchant choices lately. When Blood Draining procs at the right time, it can be a raid saver. This has happened to me once in 6 months. Which totally is not worth it IMHO. Most of the time it is irrelevant. I THINK it is time to consider threat/dps enchants. ATM I don't quite dare to use Berserking, but a straight Agi/AP/Precision/whatever enchant that is always with you can be quite useful.

    But TBH, weapon enchants aren't as important to tanks as they used to be. Choose whatever tickles you fancy. But make sure it doesn't kill you.

    WTB Titanguard
    Last edited by Mačl; 05-28-2010 at 04:48 AM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
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    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mačl View Post
    I have been debating my weapon enchant choices lately. When Blood Draining procs at the right time, it can be a raid saver. This has happened to me once in 6 months. Which totally is not worth it IMHO. Most of the time it is irrelevant.
    WTB one of your healers... I've been in several fights already where I'm yo-yoing but never hitting 100% and the heals have been life-saving (once on VDW adds I was at 1 hp - I kid you not, after yo-yoing for some 20 seconds between 20% and 60%).

    But I do think this points out something I hadn't really considered but comes up pretty clearly in your post - if you have great heals, Blood Draining is of lesser value than a group that struggles with healing.

    If you never get topped off, even if you're proccing 400, that's 400 each proc that you wouldn't have had, so if you're yo-yoing for 20 or 30 seconds without getting topped off, that can add up. The flip side, if you're almost always around 100% unless something goes wrong - it probably is true that the value is signficantly lower, comparatively because then you really do get into the on-hit before death must proc for enough to keep you after the next hit.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  4. #64
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    I think if my healers would do this with me, I'd be dead now.
    As in proper dead. Dead dead.
    Heart attack, kidney stones, stomach ulcer, blood clotting up in my brains, the lot.

    ...and then there were the NRBs. Uuuuh. That could become nasty.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  5. #65
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    If you never get topped off, even if you're proccing 400, that's 400 each proc that you wouldn't have had, so if you're yo-yoing for 20 or 30 seconds without getting topped off, that can add up. The flip side, if you're almost always around 100% unless something goes wrong - it probably is true that the value is signficantly lower, comparatively because then you really do get into the on-hit before death must proc for enough to keep you after the next hit.
    If you're yo-yoing for 20-30 seconds, that's a total of 1200 health you gain. It can only proc once every 10 seconds.

    To me, that's not nearly as big a deal as possibly avoiding one hit I wouldn't in that time. And depending on the strength of the hits, that 240 armor from mongoose might actually mitigate that much damage in 20-30 seconds time.

  6. #66
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    Actually up to 2800 health felhoof (assuming 5 stacks at the start).
    And your Mongoose MIGHT mitigate the damage, but it also might not, because it didn't proc at the right time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  7. #67
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    Looked everywhere and found nothing to discuss the effectiveness but Blood Draining does not scale with increased healing buff in ICC. So even though it's the "EH enchant" it doesn't get stronger for ICC and thus still decreases in effectiveness as gear and content get harder. I'll probably go back to 26 agi but plan on getting more data via 10man HM.
    I don't understand this line of thought. It still does what it does and doesn't do less. It doesn't get stronger and doesn't decrease in effectiveness any more than any of the other enchants. Do you have a magic new health pot that heals for more than blood draining? No. In CURRENT content, it has not diminished it's value. It isn't necessarily getting better, but it isn't getting worse.

    As a note to consider: 20% increased health increases the number of health points you have at 35%, this means that as the health points get higher the proc is more likely to save your life as that 2k heal has a higher chance to bump you up over a killing blow.


    WTB one of your healers... I've been in several fights already where I'm yo-yoing but never hitting 100% and the heals have been life-saving (once on VDW adds I was at 1 hp - I kid you not, after yo-yoing for some 20 seconds between 20% and 60%).
    As I recall the proc will not go off if there is incoming heals that will put you above 35%, similar to Ardent Defender. I haven't tested this however.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    As I recall the proc will not go off if there is incoming heals that will put you above 35%, similar to Ardent Defender. I haven't tested this however.
    Oh I was going to from 15k to 35k (total pool of 66k) throughout the fight. The heals were coming after I dropped, this was definately not a proactive healing case.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  9. #69
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    Yes, but if your healers are not healing proactively then you have other problems to deal with.

    Sure, it can help in situation where you are slowly yo-yoing down to your death, but so can the +200 spellpower to healing tank weapon. People aren't actually rushing to get it.

    Point being: it can save your bacon every blue moon but you need a better reassurance than that. You could say the same about Mongooose.
    Since I don't see many other alternatives, I'm running with blood draining and don't bother with looking for a better enchant. Perhaps Precision to fill a gap in your equipment. It doesn't matter, really. In the end, consistent and pure mitigation and health are better. Since you can't get this from a weapon enchant it all becomes a matter of taste.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  10. #70
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    Actually, there is only one enchant that can guarantee mitigation ..... 26 agility.
    It's cheap, crap and generally considered inferior, but hey! it's always there when you need it with it's whooping 52 armor and that wee bit of dodge chance!

    Not to mention that you'ld need >22% Mongoose uptime to equal this enchant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  11. #71
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    Mongoose is usually up anywhere from 28-30% of the time. >.> <.<
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Mongoose is usually up anywhere from 28-30% of the time. >.> <.<
    I thought Mongoose had a better uptime than that. Blade Ward is up 15-25% of the time and can stack. Just sayin... Don't mind me... Just keep writing it off.
    Last edited by Superspy23; 06-02-2010 at 10:35 AM. Reason: typo

  13. #73
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    Blade Ward is up 15-25% of the time
    In case you haven't been reading... that is BAD.

    Bladeward stacks are cleared on parry, if it had 400 procs and a 1% uptime then it would be a fantastic enchant, but it simply doesn't. We aren't writing off what you are saying, you are just making the enchant look worse.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superspy23 View Post
    I thought Mongoose had a better uptime than that. Blade Ward is up 15-25% of the time and can stack. Just sayin... Don't mind me... Just keep writing it off.
    It used to have better uptime for Paladins when it could proc on SoV ticks but that's no longer the case although we can still double-dip a little with Judgements (see my post earlier in this thread for details). Blade Ward's main problem, as Mellvar pointed out, is that its benefit is consumed the moment you actually yield a benefit from it. While it can stack, in reality it rarely does and if it does stack it simply means you've not actually got any benefit from it yet.

    As for Mongoose, it can't stack but an additional proc during its uptime will refresh the buff so while it is typically up for me around 30-35% of the time on a fight like Festergut, it can chain and be up for a long period of time and once the buff is up the only way you can stop receiving its benefit is by not refreshing it before it falls off which is where its strength lies when compared to Blade Ward.



  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    In case you haven't been reading... that is BAD.

    Bladeward stacks are cleared on parry, if it had 400 procs and a 1% uptime then it would be a fantastic enchant, but it simply doesn't. We aren't writing off what you are saying, you are just making the enchant look worse.
    Why is that "BAD?" Is it "bad" because its cleared by a parry but not "bad" when Mongoose just drops off.

    I've heard it both ways: its bad because a parry cleared it, and: its bad because a parry didn't happen while it was up. IMO either reasoning is faulty.

    You need to evaluate the value of the uptime by considering the amount of time you're sitting in combat with a more favorable attack table. If it was only 200 parry rating it would already give you a better avoidance table but it's better than that because it stacks too. In tank swap battles it easily gets stacks up and ready for when you taunt the boss back onto you.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Mongoose is usually up anywhere from 28-30% of the time. >.> <.<
    Then the question remains: Is that average 5 agi worth the 70% chance of not having any when you need it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinytankz View Post
    I have written it off cause avoidance sucks when there are some sorta EH options. for the record i am very biased i just wanna know which of the two sorta EH options can really make the bigger difference.
    Technically any proc cannot be factored into EH theory, since it's designed around the worst case scenario. Therefore if you're trying to maximize your EH the only option seems to be +26 Agi. Which is about as good as +5 stamina :P. It's the same reason you don't figure the Black Heart's proc into your EH.

    I'm not advocating +26 Agi. I'm just saying if you are really shooting for EH as the end all be all of tanking enchants you've only go one option for BiS EH.

  18. #78
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    Do you have any log parses that show the uptime of Blade Ward? Last I looked the uptime of the buff was abysmal but obviously the game has undergone some changes since 3.1 so it may not be as bad as it was before (reports of 3 procs in a 6 minute fight, etc). I'd definitely be interested in seeing some more recent data on Blade Ward if anybody would be so kind.



  19. #79
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    There are basically two enchants that offer any kind of EHP: mongoose and blood draining.

    Mongoose is equivalent of 21 stam worth of EHP when it is up (240/11 = 21.8 or something like that). Basically it is 210 hit points.

    Blood draining is an up to 2k heal. The efficiency of blood draining would have to drop to ~14% for it to be worse than mongoose in terms of EHP if you assume mongose has a 100% uptime, which it DOES NOT, especially for warriors.

    If you never need blood draining on a fight, then you don't need mongoose, but saying "eh I don't need the EHP, so I might as well go for dodge or threat" is akin (imo) in my mind to saying, "eh, I don't NEED 40 stam on my bracers, that enchant individually won't save me, I might as well gem 12 defense or attack power or strenght or something."

    I can pretty much guarantee that anyone that says that would get laughed out of the forums. It's not individual enchants that allow you to have enough EHP to survive something, it's about the sum of all the little benefits that help you.

    Blood draining is a smart heal when you need it, though I would gladly take 200 stam worth of REAL ehp any day than 200 stam worth of effective healing, but that's not the enchants blizzard gave us. The only enchant that provides anything close to what might be considered "reliable" EHP (not necessarily life saving EHP, just EHP) is blood draining.

    Period.

    I'm putting my foot down.

    See, it's down... mainly because I'm currently sitting...

    Oh and blood draining works for all forms of damage, mongoose and bladeward only work for physical damage.
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    The only enchant that provides anything close to what might be considered "reliable" EHP (not necessarily life saving EHP, just EHP) is blood draining.
    ... and 26 agility, although that is physical only.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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