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Thread: Mongoose/Bladeward/Blood Draining.... Why pick any of them?

  1. #41
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    Well you can quantify 2 of the enchants in terms of an EH sort of way Blood draining in amount healed (very loose with the EH here) and mitigation from mongoose. I would like to see logs with both from players in progression. (preferably the same fight 2 weeks in a row for a dry comparison) Blade ward tbh is something i have written off at this point i am more concerned with overall mitigation from agility armor off mongoose and total healing from blood draining.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    I look at the tanking experiences I've had in ICC and avoiding 1 extra attack isn't very useful, but there have been several times that even the tiniest fraction of healing would have made a difference, especially early on as your guild is trying to learn the the fights.
    And I look at my experiences and see that usually what kills me is 2-4 hits in a row north of 30k. None of the enchants are going to save me from that.

    That's why I roll w/ mongoose, the visual effect on the weapon is cool and the effectiveness of any weapon enchant is marginal at best.

  3. #43
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    I agree with Cartz here - pick whatever enchant you like best, and you'll do fine. I've ran with accuracy, weapon chains, blade ward, blood draining and mongoose, depending on what I needed or what tickled my fancy.

    The defenders of blood draining are overstating it's effectiveness, I think. They are assuming a five stack (and bosses that knock tanks under 35% do it often), and some are calling 2k health 200 stamina. I think it's a nice enchant, but not overly great. getting healed for 5% of my health is kinda like hitting something that's been judged light. A nice boost, but not world-shattering.

    I also should mention that both blade warding and mongoose have threat boosting effects as well. This may not be what tanks usually gem or enchant for, but it can't be ignored in good comparisons. Of the two, I think mongoose is the better, since the procrate of blade ward is just too awfull for it to reach it's full potential.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  4. #44
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    Tiny - Review the original post, there is information in there relevant to uptimes of Mongoose and the mitigation from it. At the top end for a warrior it is ~ 30%. It also does look cooler than the other enchants. The dodge contribution is marginal, and if you have a look at the first couple of posts, it is discussed.

    Also - Everyone needs to keep in mind that given the right circumstances any one of these enchants could theoretically save you and contribute to killing a boss. Does this mean any of them can be relied upon to do that? No. Hence the debate - If none are reliable, does it make more sense to have the "smart heal" (just in case), the "armor/avoidance", or the "avoidance" to make you slightly easier to heal (ie. the healers overheals will increase)? This is a tanks choice, hence why I haven't taken a side... none of the enchants are gamebreaking. WarTotem brings up a good point - should we concern ourselves less with marginal survivability gains and consider a threat increase instead? That depends on you, and your gear, and your raid.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinytankz View Post
    Blade ward tbh is something i have written off at this point.
    Why? In all the logs I've seen show Blade Ward to be superior to mongoose in gained avoidance; even when factoring uptimes. The added armor from Mongoose doesn't save very much damage in the big hits coming in current progression as to warrant it as flatly superior either. With each of these enchants and their small gains they need to be looked at as a whole rather than on a specific situation. Sure you can outline which situation has a better application for each enchant. Look at the thread I linked where I broke down the benefits of Blade Ward through evaluating real logs that were (at that time) progression logs. I myself was surprised.

  6. #46
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    (at that time)
    Yes, at that time, in that gear.

    Keep in mind that (as I stated before) DR has an effect on the amount of avoidance gained due to higher avoidance on gear. Bladewarding does grant ~1% more avoidance than Mongoose does (post DR). I have not, however, run the number on the threat of 800 dmg vs. ~1.9% crit. increases. I'm thinking the crit on Mongoose (may) be higher threat than Bladewarding, but I have not run the numbers on it.

    If the crit translates to substantially higher threat, that would likely knock Bladewarding out of the running. Any takers on the math?
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    I agree with Cartz here - pick whatever enchant you like best, and you'll do fine. I've ran with accuracy, weapon chains, blade ward, blood draining and mongoose, depending on what I needed or what tickled my fancy.

    The defenders of blood draining are overstating it's effectiveness, I think. They are assuming a five stack (and bosses that knock tanks under 35% do it often), and some are calling 2k health 200 stamina. I think it's a nice enchant, but not overly great. getting healed for 5% of my health is kinda like hitting something that's been judged light. A nice boost, but not world-shattering.

    I also should mention that both blade warding and mongoose have threat boosting effects as well. This may not be what tanks usually gem or enchant for, but it can't be ignored in good comparisons. Of the two, I think mongoose is the better, since the procrate of blade ward is just too awfull for it to reach it's full potential.
    It would be interesting to see an frequency of tank overkill by boss in ICC. That would bring a lot of clarity. What % are <2k and then assume that a smaller % of that would be preventable by blood draining (as some of those would be including blood draining and you can't count on 5 stacks).

    Without that, it's all endless debate, but no one seems to be arguing that the RNG in Mongoose saving from a death strike is roughly 1 in 167. My guess is blood draining is several times more than that. Assuming 30k overkill is the upper range and a random (even) distribution, 1 stack would be expected to result in a save 1.3 in 100 swings. 5 stacks would be expected to result in a save 6.7 in 100 swings. The actual number of saves would appear to fall somewhere between 1.3 to 6.7 avoided tank deaths per 100. You would expect closer to 1.3 than 6.7 given the variability in the number of actual stacks at the time of death.

    As everyone agrees, none of these enchants can be relied upon to save a raid, but even revised downward as the mistakes I made initially are pointed out Blood Draining is several times more effective than Mongoose in saving a tank from death. It can't be counted on to make or break a raid but it from what I'm looking at, it is an inch better than Mongoose.

    Now if it just had red lightning there'd be no debate.

  8. #48
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    I must say that I'm excited to see this thread. I hadn't really thought much about the decision, since Blood Draining has long been the only effective enchant in my eyes. However, now that we're working on Sindragosa HM and Putricide HM, I'm starting to consider switching back to mongoose.

    Regularly on both fights, I'm being pummeled to sub-35% frequently enough that I'm lucky to have 2 or 3 stacks up. I'm also frequently being healed to full immediately after.

    Interesting food for thought...

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    It would be interesting to see an frequency of tank overkill by boss in ICC. That would bring a lot of clarity. What % are <2k and then assume that a smaller % of that would be preventable by blood draining (as some of those would be including blood draining and you can't count on 5 stacks).
    The problem is creating the right set of filters for the task.
    My experiences in hard modes in ICC is that tank deaths can come due to a variety of reasons, and blood draining would only save me in a handfull of them.If I die due to healer problems, enrages, screwing up or someone else screwing up, it wouldn't save me. If there's extra damage coming extremely quickly after the swing, it wouldn't save me. Ifit procs and gives enough healing to save me combined with extra healing, it saves me without overkill even being registered.
    Without that, it's all endless debate, but no one seems to be arguing that the RNG in Mongoose saving from a death strike is roughly 1 in 167. My guess is blood draining is several times more than that.
    I have serious issues with the 1 in 167 number. 1% dodge with 30% uptime would maybe prevent that last blow to kill you, but if it prevents the blow prior to that, it saves your ass too. And on the other side, it doesn't do anything against frost bolts, soul reapers or frost breaths. Then again, it could save you from the increased swing speed after soul reaper. Then again, it could also cause sindy to attack a little faster due to the extra swing speed, and resulting extra parries!

    Now if it just had red lightning there'd be no debate.
    Only if it were big red lightning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    I have serious issues with the 1 in 167 number. 1% dodge with 30% uptime would maybe prevent that last blow to kill you, but if it prevents the blow prior to that, it saves your ass too. And on the other side, it doesn't do anything against frost bolts, soul reapers or frost breaths. Then again, it could save you from the increased swing speed after soul reaper. Then again, it could also cause sindy to attack a little faster due to the extra swing speed, and resulting extra parries!

    Only if it were big red lightning.
    Its sounds like too that part of the debate is where you are in progression. I'm tanking in 10man normal at Putrice/Princes/Dreamwalker. Where I'm at a good chunk of my deaths come from sudden changes in healing causes by movement effects - so bonus heals when I need them is very attractive and something I've seen value in.

    For LK and Festergut (and from what I understand Signorasa) it does sound like those fits limit the effectiveness of Blood Draining. And Hard Mode would too. Blood Draining's compartive effectiveness to Mongoose would decrease as boss hits (but not HP pools) grow larger. The larger the range of the hit the smaller portion of that range a Blood Drain proc would prevent death. For example if boss hits are ~50k, 5 stacks would be an effective save in 4 of 100 swings (2k is 4% of the range, assuming a normal distribution of overkill), while a single stack in 0.8 of 100 swings (0.8% of the range). Compare this to 30k - where it was approaching twice that range.

    ***

    Actually 1 in 167 was calculated with a 2% dodge and 30% uptime (I guess I really missed the boat on the effect of Mongoose) so if you want to look at both the death strike and the pre-death strike, you're actually at 1 in 167 with a 1% dodge and 30% update assumption.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davih View Post
    Blood Draining can cause major problems for paladins, when we get pushed below 35k health we take 20% less damage through ardent defender, if that heal pushes us above 25% we lose that 20% reduced and could get hit to below 0% whereas with the 20% reduced damage we could be saved.
    Wrong.

    Remember that AD was changed in patch 3.2: It is only that single hit that pushes you below 35% health that gets a shave from AD. Once you are below 35% health, all damage is taken as normal.

    What this means is that if you wish to maximize the benefit from AD, you'll want to be above 35% health at all times. And suddenly, blood draining goes from being potentially fatal, to have a very nice synergy with AD. indeed, if the numbers are right, Blood Draining alone can cause you from benefit from AD twice in a row.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davih View Post
    i tried working out a example but i couldnt do the numbers
    Consider a paladin above 35% health that takes a hit that takes him below 35%. AD steps in, and the actual damage taken is modified according to the formula (Note: Damage from you current health, down to 35% is also taken as normal, and the remainder is reduced. It is not possible for AD to actually prevent you from going below 35%):

    modDam = 0.2*currHp + 0.8*dam - 0.07*maxHp

    (In numericals: A tank with 50k max hp (35% of which is 17.5k), currently at 25k hp, takes a 10k hit: He will instead take 0.2*25000 + 0.8*10000 - 0.07*50000 = 9500, so AD shaved off 500 damage. Why so little? Because 25k-17.5k = 7.5k was taken as normal, and only the remaining 2.5k got the 20% reduction)

    From there, it should be easy to do the math
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-12-2010 at 06:43 AM.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superspy23 View Post
    Why? In all the logs I've seen show Blade Ward to be superior to mongoose in gained avoidance; even when factoring uptimes. The added armor from Mongoose doesn't save very much damage in the big hits coming in current progression as to warrant it as flatly superior either. With each of these enchants and their small gains they need to be looked at as a whole rather than on a specific situation. Sure you can outline which situation has a better application for each enchant. Look at the thread I linked where I broke down the benefits of Blade Ward through evaluating real logs that were (at that time) progression logs. I myself was surprised.
    I have written it off cause avoidance sucks when there are some sorta EH options. for the record i am very biased i just wanna know which of the two sorta EH options can really make the bigger difference.

  13. #53
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    for the record i am very biased i just wanna know which of the two sorta EH options can really make the bigger difference.
    That depends on your raid/healer comp. Blood draining could make a huge difference, but then again so could mongoose. It's quite the personal choice on enchants.
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  14. #54
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    Curse you mellvar and your words of wisdom. Really i am just farming a second rimefang and gonna do some personal testing. I find in pugs i am constantly dipping to 25~35% and then getting shot back up but, when i run with some buddies that do ulduar weekly i never slip under 80% so i need both enchants on good weapons at this point.

  15. #55
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    My experience (tanking on 12/12 ICC HM's) is that if I die, it is very rarely not preventable. When healing gets sloppy (movement, healers down, etc.) either I miss a CD (due miscommunication, paying attention to too many other things or trying to save it for a specific part of an encounter when it is needed) or don't have a CD and don't get an external one when called. Actually I use a weapon chain to get as close to taunt hit capped as possible (really close in my current EH set).
    Last edited by Sotally tober; 05-12-2010 at 10:09 AM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    For example if boss hits are ~50k, 5 stacks would be an effective save in 4 of 100 swings.
    If boss swings were 50k, every hit would proc blood draining and thus clear your stacks, making it highly unlikely you'll ever reach a 5stack.
    (What I'm trying to illustrate here is not that whatever math or logic you used is wrong. I'm trying to illustrate that there are a lot of factors to consider here, and that any such simple math will too many of those variables to be of any use in a real fight - and thereby using them in a comparison isn't really working.)

    Actually 1 in 167 was calculated with a 2% dodge and 30% uptime (I guess I really missed the boat on the effect of Mongoose) so if you want to look at both the death strike and the pre-death strike, you're actually at 1 in 167 with a 1% dodge and 30% update assumption.
    Meh, I pulled 1% out of my ass as a low-end estimation. It's gonna be slightly higher, but you misssed the point of what I was saying by ignoring all the other things I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  17. #57
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    Or you use accuracy/weapon chain and cap taunt hit via weapon enchant and therefore use for armor pieces and less hit pieces elsewhere!

    Edit: just noticed this was already suggested.

  18. #58
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    *bump* Also as an FYI: Blood draining saved my butt on Sindragosa. It may be gimmicky, but there are some fights where it is invaluable for buying healers that extra GCD.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    *bump* Also as an FYI: Blood draining saved my butt on Sindragosa. It may be gimmicky, but there are some fights where it is invaluable for buying healers that extra GCD.
    Digging up old memories? Or just trying to avoid another BD/Goose/Ward flurry of threads? lol

  20. #60
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    >.>

    <.<

    ....maybe....
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