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Thread: Mongoose/Bladeward/Blood Draining.... Why pick any of them?

  1. #21
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    Arguing against the 2k health is also a moot point (the point a cow makes? *snicker*).

    The reality is that even at the lowest stack, the amount it heals is more that the amount that is absorbed through the armor granted by Mongoose. Avoidance may save your life, or may not... you really can't tell until it does, or does not. The Log I took a look at (and linked) actually has blood draining as an enchant on it. You can see it was up 99.6% of the fight (consequently it was a very short fight), meaning I didn't even use it. If you get insta-gibbed within the first 40 seconds of a fight, your healers aren't paying attention or you left your pants at home. Sure you may be RNG'd (Onyxia anyone?), but any enchant would not have saved you at that point either. The first 40 seconds of the LK fight are the easiest as well, so that is not an argument.
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  2. #22
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    Quick note: just because you dodged with mongoose (or parry with blade ward), does not mean that you dodged BECAUSE of mongoose, you might have dodged anyways. It's next to impossible to tell if the contribution from avoidance of the enchant is really that enchant saving you.
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  3. #23
    You entirely neglected to factor that the Bladeward enchant parry proc stacks and refreshes the duration. I had done some evaluation of the enchant based on logs and its actual numbers were fairly better than the theory would lead you to believe. Its still not game breaking but its a worthy enchant. http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ng-by-the-Logs

    Also don't forget that DR doesn't really matter because it still has a similar survivability effect no matter where you're at on the DR. 2% parry/dodge still improves your longevity by ~2%. http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ishing-Returns

    Consider this, without DR if you have 50% avoidance an increase of 1% would effectively be an improvement of 2% because that 1 is 2% of the remaining 50 chances to take damage. This is the reason for DR so that the benefit of avoidance doesn't become OP at higher ends. Basically the 2% (unstacked buff) or Bladeward is still a ~2% increase in survivability.

    If you don't consider these mechanics your evaluation will be inadequate.

  4. #24
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    Superspy, I simply stated what the enchants did, evaluation? Not really. There is, however, a reason that people are taking blood draining.

    For starters: DR DOES MATTER. The reason for this is the fact that current gear is high in Dodge and Parry, the benefit you will see from an enchant WILL be reduced from if you were in, for arguments sake, Naxx/Ulduar gear. It does not make it a negative in any way, it just means that if you were in Naxx/heroic gear you would see a larger increase in avoidance from Mongoose or Bladewarding. All DR does is basically reduce how much you get out of it (ie. what would be 5% increase in naxx gear is now a 2% increase).

    Let's say you have a 50% chance to avoid an attack, or 50/50 chance. This is not unlike a coin flip. Now, if you have ever flipped a coin, you will notice that usually in smaller samples, the flips are not 50/50 split. The larger the sample size, usually the more close to 50/50 you will get. This is a very important observation, as it was a point discussed in the DR thread. Although you do get increased avoidance despite DR's, it doesn't mean it will increase your TTL unless the sample size is big enough. "On Average" was the term tossed out in that thread.

    Now in your post you said 50 chances, which is deeply confusing me, because 50 chances remaining of what? You have to keep in mind that avoidance is based PER HIT, not all hits together. This means that with 20% parry, you could get lucky and parry 50% of the total hits, but you could also not get lucky and parry 5% of the total hits. This is only a snippet of how all avoidance works though, I will not get into the combat table in this thread.

    The ~2% increase in survivability you stated does not make any sense to me, because it may serve to reduce your damage taken over the course of a fight, that isn't really a concern when healers have mana left over at the end of a fight. (Currently, healers are overhealing massively and having mana left at the end of an encounter.) The concern is being face-smashed down below 35% faster than healers can react, and what can you do?

    Bladewarding may or may not parry that last hit, Mongoose will absorb some of it or may allow you to dodge it, Blood Draining will give you 2K usually (unless it has procc'd recently, then it is ~400). The numbers in this situation will always favor Blood Draining. Now if Blood Draining had the same uptime as Mongoose or Bladewarding that would be an entirely different story. If you have a log of Marrowgar with Bladewarding, was it up 99.6% of the time?

    Also as stated by Aggathon:

    Quick note: just because you dodged with mongoose (or parry with blade ward), does not mean that you dodged BECAUSE of mongoose, you might have dodged anyways. It's next to impossible to tell if the contribution from avoidance of the enchant is really that enchant saving you.
    This is an extremely important observation, and although we would like to think that it isn't true, it does hold a great deal of truth to it. There really is no way to tell if it was RNG, or an enchant proc.
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  5. #25
    The RNG is the dirty word that people don't really know what to do with and seem to misunderstand. Primarily in how RNG based stats reduce the chance of streaks of unavoided attacks. Streaks are whats dangerous when it comes to tank survival. People are similarly misunderstanding how DR works. Somehow, the myth that's being bought into by so many, is that this DR thing makes the stat worth less as you progress. Put those two confusing topics together and there's a mass of people misinforming others about mechanics they themselves don't get. Reducing streaks of attacks is worth gearing for and during the Bladeward proc period it's a significant reduction of any chance of those deadly streaks.

    You mention that what you would see as a 5% increase in nax gear is only seen as a 2% gain now because of DR. Sure if you only look at the paper doll numbers but that's not the proper way to look at it. The point of the DR is to give every gain in avoidance a linear increase in survivability. Without the DR (BC days) avoidance was giving exponentially increasing returns. Bliz didn't like this. Every bit you got was worth more than the last bit. You seem to be under the impression that 400 parry rating is less valuable in terms of time to live now than it was in earlier tiers of gear just because you see a smaller number on one spot of your paper doll. That isn't right.

    You might as well think of it this way; an avoided hit now is a bigger save than it used to be due to heavier hits in general. If anything in earlier tiers (smaller health pools, smaller damage outputs) the 2k heal was a bigger benefit than it is now and is therefor decreasing in value whereas the avoidance is becoming more valuable by the same merits. The only consideration that can differentiate these enchants is preference. Do you want the little trusty situational heal or the big chancy save from periods of increased avoidance.

    The most common way for a tank to die is during a transition where healers are repositioning. In those situations you need to be able to live through a streak of hits while your heals are getting situated. A 2k heal is a slim thing to hope for to be enough to save you. But then again hoping for a fully avoided hit is just as chancy. Often being able to look at the long term of a fight could make it so you can bring one less healer/one more DPS to make that hard mode go down a little easier. (not saying either of these enchants are that powerful mind you).

    All these enchants are kind of weak in regards to survivability gains and it really just comes down to preference on the type of survivability you think works for you in your raid. I just don't believe in the DR misconceptions leading everyone to call Bladeward the worst of them all where it's clearly just as good.

  6. #26
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    Superspy, you should read http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...g-mechanics%29 I think you misunderstand a little bit about avoidance too, I explain the entire debate in great detail here, and put some math and graphs behind it that help make it make more sense, especially in your relation to reduction of hit streaks and avoiding being better.
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  7. #27
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    As a Tank i dont concern myself with damage and some of a theoretical "budget" for blade ward is spent on it. I see that ability more of a PvP enchant for tanks. I prefer myself to have things that are guaranteed mitigation or heals. Blood-draining on spike fights where i will dip that low or after talking with Agg i will probably run a second weapon with mongoose because when i am not going to dip below 35% the reduction of damage from the agility is better than nothing (it adds crit and dodge but, those are random and should not be counted on) I find the less things that cuold happen when tanking the better I prefer to know what lies ahead.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Superspy, you should read http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...g-mechanics%29 I think you misunderstand a little bit about avoidance too, I explain the entire debate in great detail here, and put some math and graphs behind it that help make it make more sense, especially in your relation to reduction of hit streaks and avoiding being better.
    I understand EHP and the avoidance streaks but I re read your thread anyway just to keep myself in check. By the way I'm not advocating Blade Ward over any other, I'm just supporting it as better than stated earlier in this thread. You however mention in that linked thread that you would would gladly surrender 200 HP for 90% avoidance (even though that's not practically available). Also you mention the average over time benefit of avoidance. Considering that all enchants involved are so small and shouldn't be depended on as a saving grace, it seems fully plausible to value Blade Ward equally amongst them as a reasonable trade off.

    When looking at over time benefits:
    One more avoided hit will be a greater reduction in damage taken over the armor granted from Mongoose.
    Blade Ward provides more total avoidance (even when comparing total uptime) than Mongoose.
    Damage proc from Blade Ward is comparable to the increased crit gained through Mongoose.

    ...So why is Blade Ward stated as lower in value than Mongoose? Seems fully comparable to me. And as for comparing it to Blood Draining... Its like apples and oranges and should be based on the fight.

  9. #29
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    The reason BladeWarding is evaluated lower is that there is no way to tell that the proc caused the parry. We would need new logs to evaluate it on the same fight, with the same gear... and likely several logs at that.

    The other issue is that avoidance is unpredictable as is, and you can't tell if the proc or your static parry caused the parry. The proc is also removed every parry, regardless whether or not the proc caused said parry.

    Also, the point of the thread is not to devalue any enchant, simply explain what they do. Conclusions can be drawn based on that. The Facts are what the enchant do, everything else is either logical reasoning, or opinion. At least if you aren't dodging with Mongoose, you are still mitigating damage, which is more than Bladewarding if you aren't parrying.
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  10. #30
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    I guess I would rather evaluate blooddrain not as EH or anyting of that nature, but in the best situation. In the best situation, it is healing 400 damage every 10 seconds, or 40 HPS.

    Is that worth it to you? Only you're going to be able to answer that for certain, but for most people the answer is no - especially given the randomness of it.

    Whereas mongoose can easily add 1-2% avoidance in a fight. Yes, it is unreliable (which is also true of blood draining) but over the course of a fight mongoose will almost certainly result in more reduced damage taken than blood draining healed. In a 5 minute fight, and assuming perfect blood draining performance, you will heal a total of 12,000 damage. That's the absolute best case it could possibly be. Compare this to Mongoose - where if it results in simply one more dodge will prevent far more than that, especially against harder-hitting bosses - and it's not a contest.

  11. #31
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    I chose to use Blood Draining and here is an example to demonstrate why.

    Tanking Sindragosa 25 hm, she frost breaths and melees me and i go to 3k health. The frost aura is ticking for 4k a time. Blood draining brings my health up to 5k before frost aura takes me to 1k then i recieve a lay on hands from a paladin.

    Sure its not going to happen much but the fact is it has that chance to save you. Its probably going to happen even less than the extra avoids from Blade Ward and Mongoose, but since when has avoidance been of any worth in Icecrown? As mentioned its not even certain if the avoidance came from the enchant or not.

    When you go below 35% and don't die, Blood Draining will act like 2k extra health (at full stacks) and thats why I chose it.

  12. #32
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    With Mongoose/Bladward, how may of those avoided hits are functionally irrelevent because of instant overhealing (those hits that drop you from 100% to 65% and then you are overhealed to 100% before the next hit lands)? Healers are spamming proactive heals rather than reactive heals because mana management is basically irrelevent. This is an important consideration. Damage avoidance over the life of a fight is far less important than a benefit when things are getting hairy even if the total damage avoided compared to the smart healing is very large.

    Mongoose may offer more damage avoided over the life of the fight but when you really need it, can you count on it's RNG nature? That's the distinct advantage Blood Draining offers over Mongoose/Bladeward, as someone said in a thread a month ago, it's "Smart Healing". If you're dropping below 35% HP then there is something happening with the healers so it's likely you'll need some extra help you can count on. Blood Draining's 2k.

    With Mongoose/Bladeward you're counting on A) It being proc'd and B) the expanded dodge/parry range was needed to made a successful dodge/parry. It definately happens, but can you count on it? That's the philosophical distinction. How much of a risk taker are you? Are you willing to go with a known, though lesser bonus (2k hp rather than complete avoidance) or gamble on RNG?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Mongoose may offer more damage avoided over the life of the fight but when you really need it, can you count on it's RNG nature?
    Counting on any single enchant to save you when you really need it isn't smart.
    With Mongoose/Bladeward you're counting on A) It being proc'd and B) the expanded dodge/parry range was needed to made a successful dodge/parry. It definately happens, but can you count on it? That's the philosophical distinction. How much of a risk taker are you? Are you willing to go with a known, though lesser bonus (2k hp rather than complete avoidance) or gamble on RNG?
    On one side you gamble on the proc being there and avoidance, on the other side you gamble on 2k health being enough to save you. Both are RNG in their ability to save your ass.

    The other side of the pholisophical discussion should be hinted at as well. Would you rather have an enchant that only helps when things go wrong, and probably won't make a difference when they do or an enchant that makes you take less damage and do more damage?
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  14. #34
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    I use blooddrain on my Sind weapon (a weapon with hit rating to hit cap my taunts with glyph in FrR gear) but other than that type of situation where you are not getting hit for a long time then taking huge burst, it is a pretty bad enchant, simply takes to long to stack.



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    Counting on any single enchant to save you when you really need it isn't smart.
    Agreed, but going again to the quotation "WoW is a game of inches" trying to maximize every slot adds up over 17 slots. Is Blood Draining better than Mongoose or Bladewarding? Probably not in any way except play style and user comfort. This may one of the few cases where there is no clear consensus on which is best. Everyone has their own *strong* preference XD If only WoW had more cases where there was no clear-cut favorite...

    On one side you gamble on the proc being there and avoidance, on the other side you gamble on 2k health being enough to save you. Both are RNG in their ability to save your ass.
    I disagree. Avoid is pure RNG. Blooddraining is proc'd by circumstance. It's completely different. Blood Draining is basically a reusable Runic Healing potion you can pop every so often. And while the arguement that how often have you seen <185 overkill when debating +10 Stats versus +275 HP chest enchants is limited, overkills by less than 2k are far more common. It's not going to save you if you're at 3k and get hit by a saberlash, no, but 2k is not a trivial amount at the margins.

    Blood Draining's 2k will not save you from the majority of death situations, but the chance it will is much higher than Mongoose.

    For Mongoose to save you it has to A) Be Proc'd (which for warriors is what 30% according to the logs posted?), and then B) the expanded ~2% dodge range must be cause the hit to the miss. The chances for that to be the case would be something like .3*.02 = .006 or like once in every 167 swings that would cause death. What are average boss hits after typical damage reduction in ICC? ~20k? In that case, 2k healing would be 10% of that range, meaning that roughly 1 in every 10 hits that would cause the next swing to result in death wouldn't result in death. Or am I really screwing up my assumptions here? Aggathon/Mellvar did I just screw this up?

    The other side of the pholisophical discussion should be hinted at as well. Would you rather have an enchant that only helps when things go wrong, and probably won't make a difference when they do or an enchant that makes you take less damage and do more damage?
    A) Most of Mongoose's damage avoidance will be avoiding irrelevent damage. If the healers are overhealing you proactively, taking less damage when things are going well is irrelevent. There's simply no risk in not avoiding that damage when you're going to go from 100% to 70% and then get popped back to 100% in less than a second.

    B) Extra damage, I would argue, is too small to relevant. Maybe for Pallys it becomes more signficant, but for warriors, not so much.

    C) If Mongoose provided a steady bonus rather than RNG bonus, then it probably would be preferred. At 100% uptime Mongoose would likely be preferred, but given that you don't know when it's going to be up and you really need it up when things are going south... Well I for one prefer the enchant that will be there when problems arise rather than the one I hope doesn't proc until I need it.

    Again, as has been pointed out many times, this is mostly a playstyle choice. When I'm Fury DPS-ing, I'll take more risks to maximize my output. When I'm Prot-tanking I'm going to minimize my risk to limit the probability that I'm the fail point in the raid. My philosophy is tanks aren't risk takers XD

    *Last thing* I'm surprised, I don't think I've seen one comment on Blue Lighting being the deciding factor.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    Counting on any single enchant to save you when you really need it isn't smart.
    Counting on a single Stamina gem to save you isn't smart either, counting on the sum of all enchants and gems is.

    On one side you gamble on the proc being there and avoidance, on the other side you gamble on 2k health being enough to save you. Both are RNG in their ability to save your ass.

    The other side of the pholisophical discussion should be hinted at as well. Would you rather have an enchant that only helps when things go wrong, and probably won't make a difference when they do or an enchant that makes you take less damage and do more damage?
    It has been established that healers heal for far more than the DTPS you take over a fight. Therefor the only arguments in terms of survival are:
    1) The chance that the enchant will actually avoid an attack (= the uptime * the average avoidance of the buff)
    2) The EHP gain it gives.

    Even comparing 1 stack of Blood Draining vs the armor Mongoose gives, BD wins in most cases. Not to mention it is far more likely to have a stack of Blood Draining up than Mongoose.

    The only reason you would have to decide between either of these is threat, because it is your weapon that provides so much of it anyway.
    In which case Mongoose (crit+haste) > Accuracy > Blade Ward > Weapon Chain > Blood Draining.
    Last edited by Airowird; 05-11-2010 at 07:10 AM. Reason: Seplling
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    For Mongoose to save you it has to A) Be Proc'd (which for warriors is what 30% according to the logs posted?), and then B) the expanded ~2% dodge range must be cause the hit to the miss. The chances for that to be the case would be something like .3*.02 = .006 or like once in every 167 swings that would cause death. What are average boss hits after typical damage reduction in ICC? ~20k? In that case, 2k healing would be 10% of that range, meaning that roughly 1 in every 10 hits that would cause the next swing to result in death wouldn't result in death. Or am I really screwing up my assumptions here? Aggathon/Mellvar did I just screw this up?
    Let me assure you, you're off on your assumptions. You're assuming best possible case for Blood Draining (i.e. full stacks), you're assuming the hit doesn't take you from >35% to 0% and you're drastically oversimplifying how tanks take damage to make blood draining a clear winner.

    You need to remember that w/ the 15% buff, many tanks are sitting at around 65k HP fully raid buffed. That means that Blood draining procs at 22,750hp. On the real tank killer fights like Festergut and LK, many of their hits are going to be for far greater than 22.7k (I have parses where H Festergut hits tanks for 35-38k). Even if you took a hit that put you 1hp underneath the threshold, the 2k heal would do jack squat to save you without an incoming heal from a healer.

    Assuming your 20k incoming hit baseline, there is also a slightly greater than 1 in 11 chance that the heal is unneccessary, that is that the hit takes you to less than 22.7k but greater than 20k. Even if you get pegged in the sweet spot between 18,001 and 20,000 damage where a full stack blood draining will save you, blood draining does nothing to save your life if a heal lands before you take your next hit. Furthermore, it is a totally wasted proc if you're topped up before you get hit again and you'll need to wait another ~40s to get a full stack.

    I'm not advocating that Blood Draining is worthless, but saying that blood draining will save you 1 time out of 10 is pretty off base.

  18. #38
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    I think saying Saved by an enchant is a waste of time in general. Rather than looking at X enchant can stop your wipe in Y situation lets look at what they do in terms of practicality.

    Does anyone have logs of blooddraining on progression fights with the amount healed I.E. blood Draining healed me for 10k over the fight

    Damage done by blade ward has been evaluated in another thread

    Anyone got logs showing times hit with mongoose up allowing us to look at mitigated damage from armor.

    Saved is pointless lets look at practicality overall.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartz View Post
    I'm not advocating that Blood Draining is worthless, but saying that blood draining will save you 1 time out of 10 is pretty off base.
    Do you think the determination of of Mongoose's likilihood to save a tank death is accurate?

    One key distinction to make out here is that Mongoose is a death-saver, it's an avoidance of a death swing, while Blood Draining is a next-swing being a death swing mitigator due to help healing. So I was omitting the fact that in some X% of cases where HP drops below 35%, heals are going to come in to the point that the Blood Draining heals are irrelevent.

    So 1 in 11 is overly generous. However, even accounting for good portion of Blood Draining's procs being rendered uncessary by healing before the next strike, the chances are higher than Blood Draining procs will save a tank more often than Mongoose's (at least for warriors) unless in 156 of 167 cases Blood Draining's heals are cancelled out by incoming heals anyway.

    The value of Blood Draining though is that you are most likely to be below 35% health (outside of Festergut, Signorisa from what I understand and LK) only when the healers are struggling to keep up, which makes the extra heal more valueable.

    I look at the tanking experiences I've had in ICC and avoiding 1 extra attack isn't very useful, but there have been several times that even the tiniest fraction of healing would have made a difference, especially early on as your guild is trying to learn the the fights.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinytankz View Post
    I think saying Saved by an enchant is a waste of time in general. Rather than looking at X enchant can stop your wipe in Y situation lets look at what they do in terms of practicality.

    Does anyone have logs of blooddraining on progression fights with the amount healed I.E. blood Draining healed me for 10k over the fight

    Damage done by blade ward has been evaluated in another thread

    Anyone got logs showing times hit with mongoose up allowing us to look at mitigated damage from armor.

    Saved is pointless lets look at practicality overall.
    But overall is a misnomer too, because overall doesn't differentiate between when the proc was basically irrelelvent and when it was actually useful. The vast majority of all procs of all enchantments won't have any signficant impact whatsoever when you factor in overhealing before then next swing.

    This is part of why it's so tough to determine.

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