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Thread: Mongoose/Bladeward/Blood Draining.... Why pick any of them?

  1. #1
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    Mongoose/Bladeward/Blood Draining.... What do they do?

    This question is one that is commonly asked, and is a heated point of debate. To start lets get the facts out:






    1. None of these enchants are game-breaking. It can make the encounter easier, but should not be the difference between a kill and no kill under normal circumstance. If one of these enchants is the difference, something else you are doing in the encounter is wrong.
    2. Mongoose – Increases Agility by 120 and attack speed slightly. This translates 240 armor, ~2.5% pre-DR dodge and 1.904% crit. At 35k armor as a base, this is another ~0.3% damage reduction. (Roughly 60 Damage from a 20k physical hit.) With kings this bonus becomes 132 agility and 264 armor (rougly 104 damage from a 20k physical hit).
    3. Blood Draining – Melee weapon damage (bleed effects as well) sometimes grant blood reserves, when you fall below 35% health, blood reserve restores 360 to 440 health, stacks up to 5 times. This translates to ~2k hp (heal) when you drop below 35% health. (Roughly 2000 damage from any hit at 5 stacks. Some fights, such as LK, will trigger each reserve individually (ie ~400 hp heal) throughout the course of a fight numerous times.)
    4. Bladeward – Melee weapon damage grants Blade Warning, increasing parry rating by 200 and inflicts 600 to 800 damage on your next parry. This effect lasts 10 seconds, and can stack up to 5 times but is removed on parry. Parry is subject to harsh diminishing returns, so using the Coding from Satrina's post on Tankspot (Found at http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...urns-avoidance ) We can create some maths. Using 1000 Parry rating as a baseline, we would expect to see 22.1% parry, but actually only see 15.5% parry on character screen. If we now see blade warding proc, we are at 1200 rating, expected is 26.52%, actual is 17.44%. This gives us a 1.94% increase in our CHANCE to parry a hit, not guaranteed parry. (Roughly a chance to entirely avoid an entire 20k physical hit.)
    "Chance to Parry looks pretty good....” Indeed it does look good. But lets consider what exactly that means. Chance to Parry means you have a chance, on a hit by hit basis, to parry it. Even with 20% chance to parry, that is 20% on a hit by hit basis. What does that mean? If you have a boss swing at you 100 times, each time he swings, you have a 20% chance to parry it. It does not mean that out of 100 swings you parry 20. This is why it is considered “RNG” (Random Number Generator), it means that if you are lucky, the boss swings 100 times and you parry 100 times; conversely if you are unlucky the boss swings 100 times and hits 100 times. In reality, a 2% chance is going to be barely noticeable, if at all, when considering the way that avoidance actually works.


    "But the armor and the proc from Mongoose are pretty good!" This is true, and there are two different ways to look at this: If your healers are constantly OOM with no overheals, you need to find a way to take less damage. If you are getting burst down and killed, you need to survive. In ICC, the latter is the issue. Mongoose overall will help with damage, but not in a way that makes it superior. On a Marrowgar fight (mostly physical) with a 30% uptime on Mongoose (which is the top end of the proc on this enchant for a warrior) it would have stopped about 411 damage calculated over the course of the encounter (with Kings).( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...6/?s=696&e=848 ) ***As an added note: On this fight given a 100% uptime on Mongoose, the most damage stopped would have been 1370***

    A couple of important notes: Overheals for that fight were over 50% (Druid healer and to be expected) and Blood Draining never proc'd, meaning my health did not go below 35%. Why is that important? It means that Mongoose would have only served to INCREASE the OVERHEALS on that encounter.


    Let's look at the numbers for these enchants: 60 damage from a 20k hit (physical only) *mongoose* (With Kings you are looking at 104 damage), 2000 damage from a 20k hit [or ~400 health (if there is only 1 stack)] (magic or physical) *blood draining*, 1.94% chance to avoid a 20k hit (physical only) *blade ward*.

    "Physical only?" Yes. Armor bonuses only work against physical damage, and you can only parry physical hits. Health is health.


    “But that 2k isn't going to save me from a 20k hit!” Absolutely, this is a fact. The chances of actually hitting exactly 35% health are very slim as well. However, playing the “which number is bigger than the other” game, Blood Draining still is a reliable 1.94k more damage 'taken' than Mongoose... Bladeward is unreliable at this point, and a 2% increased chance to parry is almost negligible.


    As mentioned, none of these enchants are going to be game-breaking, but for min-maxing purposes or just getting the most out of your gear, 2k health is looking to be ahead of the other options. In ICC the concern is not so much about how much damage you can mitigate in 5 minutes, it's about how long it takes you to go from 100% to 0%, Blood Draining is far ahead of the other enchants when considering a burst scenario.


    For more info about EH and what it is/means/does, please make a sandwich and see Aggathon's post ( http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?66564-Why-We-Do-What-We-Do-(An-in-depth-explanation-of-EHP-and-ICC-3.3.3-tanking-mechanics ) about EH. The sandwich should get you through it, but you may want a drink too.



    If anyone can think of anything I missed, please PM me or post and I will have a look.

    Last edited by MellvarTank; 05-06-2010 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Added modification to Blood Draining notes.
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  2. #2
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    Well, Blood Draining could be gamebreaking, look at the way you worded it. That 2k heal at the last 20k of a boss's health could be the difference between beating hardmode LK this week or having to start a new heroic lock out next week. It IS that powerful. Blade ward sucks, parry is hit by mega DRs, and the buff goes away as soon as you parry an attack. In addition the DR of the 200 rating, it scales worse with better gear, the more parry you get on your gear, the less you get from the buff. Mongoose is a good all-around damage reduction enchant, I would take it secondary to Blood Draining maybe on a different weapon for a higher avoidance set. I don't think I saw you mention the dodge gained from the buff though, you mentioned the armor and crit, also, there's a minor speed increase as well to the buff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    The Dodge is subject to DR, completely negligable. To be honest, I checked it and the numbers didn't even move on my character screen in game.

    The reason I say gamebreaking is simply this: If you are within the last 20k of a bosses health and barely hanging on, healers are dead and DPS are going all out: You have (for arguments sake) 60K health in ICC with the new buff (10 man): 21k is your 35%. Now, if the boss hits you for 20k repeatedly, you have 3 hits from full health until you are toast. After two hits, blood draining procs, and you take the third hit, that next hit (or AoE damage) kills you.

    The situation above is very unlikely. More likely, you start this chain at 70% health as the healers were behind on heals (hence their deaths), a few DPS are toast from AoE. You are now sitting at 42k, he hits you for 20k, you are now at 22k, he hits for 20k, blood draining procs, you die anyways on the next hit as you only have 4k. It didn't save you, it wasn't going to save you. You wipe.

    There is a small chance that any proc will save you, but looking at the numbers, Blood Draining is MORE LIKELY to save you than the other enchants.
    Last edited by MellvarTank; 05-04-2010 at 09:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    The Dodge is subject to DR, completely negligable. To be honest, I checked it and the numbers didn't even move on my character screen in game.

    The reason I say gamebreaking is simply this: If you are within the last 20k of a bosses health and barely hanging on, healers are dead and DPS are going all out: You have (for arguments sake) 60K health in ICC with the new buff (10 man): 21k is your 35%. Now, if the boss hits you for 20k repeatedly, you have 3 hits from full health until you are toast. After two hits, blood draining procs, and you take the third hit, that next hit (or AoE damage) kills you.

    The situation above is very unlikely. More likely, you start this chain at 70% health as the healers were behind on heals (hence their deaths), a few DPS are toast from AoE. You are now sitting at 42k, he hits you for 20k, you are now at 22k, he hits for 20k, blood draining procs, you die anyways on the next hit as you only have 4k. It didn't save you, it wasn't going to save you. You wipe.

    There is a small chance that any proc will save you, but looking at the numbers, Blood Draining is MORE LIKELY to save you than the other enchants.

    How much dodge are you gemming that 120 agi did nothing on your character screen? Also, healers dead or not, do you know how fast even 5 DPS can put out 20k damage? I'll tell you it's far less than a second, you didn't die, or you died at the very last moment and the boss died right after.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    For one: I'm gemming no dodge, even swapping a strength weapon for an AGI weapon, my dodge does not change.

    From EJ:

    52.08 agility = +1% dodge chance.
    52.08 agility = +1% crit chance.
    1 agility = 2 armor.

    That is pre-DR. Using the DR/value table: It is ~2.5% pre-DR. That is ~1% increase to dodge in ICC gear for a chance to dodge, so instead of a ~6% chance to dodge, you are looking at 6.5-7%? (Based on Warrior dodge at ~ 26%)

    Again: I would not count on 5 DPS being alive in the situation where blood draining would potentially alter the outcome. I'm not saying it can't, as it can. I'm saying that the chance of that happening is about as good as the chance of bladewarding parrying that killing blow.

    Game-Breaking would be defined as superior in EVERY instance to anything else. ie. It saves you every time. That just isn't the case with any of these enchants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    For one: I'm gemming no dodge, even swapping a strength weapon for an AGI weapon, my dodge does not change.

    From EJ:

    52.08 agility = +1% dodge chance.
    52.08 agility = +1% crit chance.
    1 agility = 2 armor.

    That is pre-DR. Using the DR/value table: It is ~2.5% pre-DR. That is ~1% increase to dodge in ICC gear for a chance to dodge, so instead of a ~6% chance to dodge, you are looking at 6.5-7%? (Based on Warrior dodge at ~ 26%)

    Again: I would not count on 5 DPS being alive in the situation where blood draining would potentially alter the outcome. I'm not saying it can't, as it can. I'm saying that the chance of that happening is about as good as the chance of bladewarding parrying that killing blow.

    Game-Breaking would be defined as superior in EVERY instance to anything else. ie. It saves you every time. That just isn't the case with any of these enchants.
    Still, it's more than nothing and worth mentioning as one of the stats the enchant brings.

    For blood draining, it's not god-mode, the game is designed to kill you. Blood draining just gives you a small chance you won't die (but it's not random like chance to parry).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Blood draining just gives you a small chance you won't die (but it's not random like chance to parry).
    Agreed. Looking at the numbers if any of the enchants would save you, it would definitely look to be Blood Draining as the benefit of 2k in a burst scenario is by far superior for those of us that don't like to gamble with RNG.

    I just don't want to give anyone reading this the impression that it is a guarantee that you can take another hit. It really isn't a guarantee of anything except 2k health below 35%.
    Last edited by MellvarTank; 05-04-2010 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Added the Pre-Diminished dodge to the original post.
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    Blood Draining can cause major problems for paladins, when we get pushed below 35k health we take 20% less damage through ardent defender, if that heal pushes us above 25% we lose that 20% reduced and could get hit to below 0% whereas with the 20% reduced damage we could be saved.

    So if your a paladin reading this mongoose is better than blood draining. Its Trivial but can be game breaking if the healer is like a second late on a heal and we could still live. (this is very hypothetical and if it does happen your healers are slacking)

    i tried working out a example but i couldnt do the numbers

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    I remembered reading about this, and it was changed in patch 3.1(?) I believe.... I'll have to do a search or if anyone has this info on the patch change. Either way, this is a non-issue now as far as I know.

    Here is a quote for Maintankadin regarding this, however it is old (max health around 40k old):

    TLDR Summary:
    • While Blood Draining can push us out of AD range, and thus cause "leapfrogging" that kills us, reducing our TTL in some situations, it also adds TTL to other situations where we were in AD range but had slightly less HP than the size of the incoming hits after AD mitigation is factored in.
    • As a result, at least in this simple analysis, Blood Draining will never reduce your average TTL, assuming that your "starting health" obeys a flat probability density function. So at least in that respect, the naysayers were wrong.
    • Yes, the above is an unreliable (and probably incorrect) assumption, but without a more involved model of how healing effects change the probability density function, it will be hard to come up with anything rigorous. Empirical data might help here.
    • Despite the fact that blood draining won't reduce your survivability, it also doesn't do anything to increase it for very large boss hits. Unfortunately, very large boss hits are often what kills a tank, making this an expensive enchant that works best in the cases we don't need it, and worst in the cases we do.
    From: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...ic&f=6&t=23262

    The only thing that I can add to this is how I'm not entirely convinced that it is still relevant. Although big hits are tank killers, it is tending to be smaller faster hits bursting us down that is annihilating tanks in ICC (especially with such high armor values). I would still think Blood Draining is the best overall EH enchant for a Paladin, and Mongoose would be the best for avoidance/EH, whereas Bladewarding is straight avoidance. The chance of Blood Draining knocking you out of the AD range is slim, and the benefit of 2k health within AD range is very tough to ignore.
    Last edited by MellvarTank; 05-04-2010 at 03:04 PM.
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    Just as a quick thought: Blood draining is below 35% HP, as is AD. Sure, one time in every few encounters it may kick in and pop you out of AD range and you'll die, but if heals were not incoming you would die anyways. The chances of being within 2k hp of that window are slim. I'm not convinced that mongoose would save you more than blood draining in that case. I'm relatively sure that your healers would likely have more mana left when you drop and the raid wipes.

    Upon discussion in the shoutbox: Current tank health being (for arguments sake) 65k in a 25 man, when AD procs you are at 22750 health. That means even if blood draining procs, you have to be hit for 24750 health (after armor reduction) to die, and more than that for AD not to proc as well (as AD will only be leapfrogged if you are overkilled by a hit that will overkill you despite 20% reduction... if that makes sense). The only fights where this might happen are likely LK 25 HM and Sindragosa 25 HM, but your health pool would likely be larger than 65k.

    So the reason that the numbers likely did not work Davih, is because blood draining is still a better enchant for progression in current content.
    Last edited by MellvarTank; 05-04-2010 at 03:27 PM.
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    Note that blood draining does not mean 2k heals all the time. It really depends on a fight. There's an ICD on the proc that lasts 10 seconds, which means that it takes 40 seconds to go from 0 to 5 stacks at best.

    And if you drop below 35% at any time, the stack resets and you heal that much.

    So take a fight like HLK - you will almost never get healed for 2k. You'll be healed for 400 every 10 seconds or so because you're constantly dropping below 35%. You might be able to build up a 5-stack on a tank swap or something ,but most of the time that's not going to happen.

    There are some fights where you can consistently get that 2k heal - fights where you take very specific burst but are otherwise not threatened. Mimiron's plasma blast and Vezax are a couple examples from before. Sindragosa almost could apply, and I guess Putricide could too, kinda. But most of the time it's not going to help significantly, and it certainly won't reliably.

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    First of all, Ardent defender isn't leapfroggable anymore. If you take a blow when you are above 35% health, and the blow takes you under 35% health, that blow will have it's damage reduced. So blood draining will always help, even for paladins. More so, even, if ardent defender procs, you should get the healing from blood draining, making blood draining slightly better for paladins.

    Secondly, I don't get the name of the post. 30 stamina isn't going to save you that often, but you'll still fill that gem slot. 275 health isn't going to save you that often, but you'll still have your chest enchanted. Long story short, gemming and enchanting is all about putting on lots of little effects that work together to make you do your job better. All three named enchants accomplish that goal, and they are three of the best enchants for tanking, so I'd say they are all valid.
    (And people should stop complaining about things being RNG. Avoidance may save your life, and taking 1% less melee damage? That can be more then blood draining procs for in many fights.)

    Here's how I view them.
    Blood draining may save your life - if you get hit to the 30% sweet spot where you'll survive one more blow with it, or if it heals for just enough for it to combine with other heals to keep you alive.
    Blade warding may save your life - it could prevent the blow that puts you under 30% from even happening!
    Mongoose may save your life - it could prevent the blow from happening and it could give you just enough extra armor to get hit to 1 hp instead of 0 hp! And since I'm delving into once-in-a-million chances, it may cause the boss to die a little sooner due to your increased dps, giving the boss less time to kill you.
    Would I count on any of them to save my life? Hell no. Do I think they are all valuable? Yeah.

    Me, I put accuracy on my weapon. I needed (past tense) the hit rating, and can always use more threat.
    Last edited by Martie; 05-05-2010 at 02:42 AM.
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    Martie - The point is to list what the enchants do, there is very little that is conclusive about them. By the numbers, blood draining does the most. The chances of it actually saving you? That is a different story.

    Also: There is no complaining about "RNG". It is fact, and if you like to gamble, I would say Bladewarding is the best enchant for you.

    Reliability wise: Blood Draining. It's going to be there when you get cranked to 1% health, and though it likely won't save you, at least it did what it said it would. Mongoose is up ~30% on the top end of the scale, that 30% could be in the middle of a fight, at the end, or at the beginning. There is no guarantee it will even be there when you need it.
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    Something I've been curious to investigate was the existence of any synergy between Last Word and Blood draining.

    Since we're obviously discussing the boundary cases where the little addition from one enchant may save your life, I think that this deserves at least a mention. I know the uptime on Last word is very near 100%... Unless I misunderstand how the proc on Last Word works (which I could) could this potentially double the heal received from Blood Draining?

    I realize that we sacrifice avoidance moving from other tanking weapons to this, but it can't be much more than 1%... 2% tops. Also remember we gain some mitigation from the +100str proc in the form of block value to counteract this loss a bit. Even considering those losses, doubling the strength of a blood draining proc when we dip low, as well as increasing the strength of every hot tick and heal that comes in while we're in this danger zone seems appealing.

    Unfortunately I'm at work, and do not have the time to do the maths required or the testing to see if blood draining is actually affected by the proc.

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    50 block value means jack when you're getting hit for 25k. Also I'm doubting if Last Word's proc would have any effect on the heal proc from BD, but even if it did, it's not a very big increase...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    50 block value w/ 20% block is on average 10 dmg per hit in mitigation. Take into account buffs, critical blocks, and block rating/value increasing abilities and it works out to quite a bit more, maybe 20ish?. Considering mongoose mitigates 60/hit, I think it's worth a mention considering the context of the discussion.

    Considering the text of Last Word's description, I'd say it almost certainly does affect blood draining. The relevant question is in how the healing is applied from blood draining, if each stack is considered individually, then you could see a doubling of the healing effect. If it applies after the stacks are summed and multiplied out, then it's around a 10% increase and much less desirable. Considering the healing applied by each stack is different (360-440), there is no clear answer just from reading the tooltips. It will require some in game testing. I'll do it if no one else reading this has, I just thought I'd throw it out here first.

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    I'm sorry Cartz, but this discussion should have it's own topic, as it has very little to do with the enchant, and more to do with Last Word and how it works. It should have no bearing on how the enchant itsself works, which is what this thread is addressing.

    Please see this thread for a snippet of discussion on Last word and blood draining: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p....-Mithrios-(NH)
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    Has Executioner been explored by anyone as a threat enchant? At some point after 3.0 the buff was converted to ignoring 840 armor to 120 ArP rating, which is just over 8%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  19. #19
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    The one thing that everyone seems to ignore with regards to Blood Draining is that it is not a 2k guaranteed heal when you drop below 35%. It takes 50-70s to stack Blood Reserve to 5; the buff does occasionally (but I'll grant you, rarely) fall off due to the duration expiring rather than triggering, and finally - if you're going to use that last 20k health of a boss as an example, chances are that you're in such dire straits that you'll be below 35% for an extended duration of time. I'm not going to leap into the murky depths of a healing distribution model, but chances are that if you're below 35%, the additional health-time BR (at 5 stacks) buys you may or may not be sufficient to survive one additional attack.

    This is not to say it's not the "best" - I honestly couldn't say, although I currently use it - but I rather feel you're misrepresenting it above by suggesting that Blood Draining is almost as good as an additional 2,000 health

    (E) I see Felhoof also picked up on this - clearly I missed him in my first read through the thread.
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    Seriously though, how long do you expect 20k health to last on a boss? Even with two ICC 25 geared DPS it should last a second. Our mages, rogues, hunters, etc were putting out 12-13k damage per second at the time I killed my account, and that was right around the time the guild killed LK on 25.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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