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Thread: Why We Do What We Do (An in depth explanation of EHP and ICC 3.3.3 tanking mechanics)

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    Also, because of the way DR is applied to avoidances, you cannot look at a single piece of armour and say "this gives enough extra avoidance to be better than X armour". You have to recalculate your diminished avoidance including the boost from the candidate upgrade piece and use the new avoidance total as your basis to try and do whatever sort of equation with EHP.

    Let us know how you make out with the math
    In the case of Glyph vs. Coin, I'm using my own tooltip stat values with each trinket equipped:

    When I equip the Glyph I gain 1.06% physical damage reduction from armor, going from 69.51% to 70.57%. When I equip the Coin I gain 2.26% dodge, going from 26.22% to 28.48% (with Chill of the Throne that's 6.22-8.48%, but the percentage gain is the same).

    The Coin provides over twice as much damage reduction as the Glyph, at my current values, without taking into account the proc/use attributes of the trinkets.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    But the flip side of what you're saying is that you can't prove your argument either...which means you should not be so determined to promote your argument as irrefutable fact.

    With all due respect, since we have conceded that ultimately this can't be modeled and has to be proven out by in-game experience...I have seen the effect you're talking about. And it is a problem that seems to be faced by Warrior tanks to a far greater degree than other classes. They seem to be doing fine and then...splat. They're dead.

    Your own experience is echoed by great numbers of Prot Warriors who have posted on various forums about their woes for some time now.

    It is entirely possible that with the great number of factors in play, talents like the Paladin's Ardent Defender ameliorate just enough of the worst case scenario that a well-geared Paladin tank rarely dies where a Warrior usually would. Druids, meanwhile, have their huge health pool to rely on, and DKs can self-heal.

    It's great that you found a way to make Prot Warrior viable. I'm just not sure it applies to all tanking classes equally.
    But we have proved it... This original post was over 17 pages in word proving it, countless people and experience has proved it, for all the people we've helped in the HALP! forum we've never once gotten a negative response saying it hurt them to follow my EHP advice, quite the opposite, we've helped people get into countless good guilds and helped them become better tanks because they've followed our advice. That's why people come here and why I post here.

    What I'm saying is, unless you provide conclusive evidence to refute the mountain of evidence that is not in your favor, you're wrong.

    You're just reposting the same thing over and over and not listening to what we're saying. Dodge is not damage reduction. It is avoidance, not mitigation. You might take less damage over a very long period of time, but that is NOT what tank survivability is about in the current state of the game. You obviously have not read anything in sections 1 or 6 nor any of the mountain of advice/evidence that people have provided you to answer this quandry.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    But we have proved it... This original post was over 17 pages in word proving it, countless people and experience has proved it, for all the people we've helped in the HALP! forum we've never once gotten a negative response saying it hurt them to follow my EHP advice, quite the opposite, we've helped people get into countless good guilds and helped them become better tanks because they've followed our advice. That's why people come here and why I post here.

    What I'm saying is, unless you provide conclusive evidence to refute the mountain of evidence that is not in your favor, you're wrong.

    You're just reposting the same thing over and over and not listening to what we're saying. Dodge is not damage reduction. It is avoidance, not mitigation. You might take less damage over a very long period of time, but that is NOT what tank survivability is about in the current state of the game. You obviously have not read anything in sections 1 or 6 nor any of the mountain of advice/evidence that people have provided you to answer this quandry.
    I read the entire original post, and I even understand the math. I am not disputing the value of stamina at all. I am not disputing the argument that armor is more valuable than dodge point-for-point. If you look at my own stats posted above, you can see that I have more or less followed your advice myself. I'm edging toward 40k armor with full buffs.

    What I am disputing is the notion that "EH", especially armor, but even stamina, is preferable to dodge even if you have a choice between a piece of gear with a relatively small amount of EH vs. one with a much larger amount of dodge. I think you're taking a good idea and pushing it too far.

    The only real way to make informed decisions is to find some way to quantify the relative value of armor and dodge that takes into account armor's advantage of being "always on". I think we agree that that's impossible, so maybe a dose of humility, and at least a few caveats would be in order. Sure, the TL;DR version might legitimately be "just stack stam and armor", but considering how much effort and typing you put into it, some ackowledgement of the limits of what you're saying would be useful.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    My biggest question is not about stamina vs. dodge. It's about ARMOR vs. dodge. Since armor and dodge both protect only against physical damage, I think it is a much closer call than it's being made out to be. Lumping armor in with stamina as "EHP" is misleading in that sense.
    This is done because the vast majority of damage you take is physical, and with very few exceptions, fights have considerable physical damage components even if they utilize a lot of magic damage.
    As was suggested above, armor gives you a 100% chance to reduce physical damage by X%.

    Dodge gives you an X% chance to reduce physical damage by 100%.
    That's an interesting way to put it. It's also highly misleading. 100% means there is no chance factor. It means it works. Now, I understand your point, and if a boss would hit for 5k damage, avoidance would absolutely rock.
    The problem is that bosses don't hit for 5k, they hit for far more - some of the challenging bosses hit for 20-40k. Relying on avoidance to prevent this damage means you flip a coin. Relying on armor to prevent this armor means that you know what is going to happen.
    There lies the difference - armor will make a difference. Avoidance may make a difference.
    Since your healers can't predict avoidance, they'll have to top you off after every blow. Since healers can predict armor, they can more intelligently heal you.
    Given that the statistical value of both stats is equal over a long enough period of time, what is the actual value of the "always on" attribute of armor? How much larger does a dodge bonus need to be to justify choosing a piece of gear with dodge over one with armor?
    The always on component of armor comes from the fact that long periods of time aren't interesting. The periods of time that are interesting are the ten seconds just after a soul reaper, or the five seconds that a healer has to LoS you. During those periods of time, avoidance may not do a damn thing, while armor will work.

    If I have a piece of gear that has 10 armor and another that increases dodge by 20%, I'd obviously be a fool not to choose the one with dodge. It's probably impossible to determine where that dividing line is in exact terms, but that's what I'm talking about.
    There's no provable break point - like I said in another thread, there are too many variables.
    I'll take the glyph of indomitability over the heroic corpse tongue coin, though. You can play around with 10 armor vs 20% dodge all day long if you like, but it's pointless - go compare actual items.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
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  5. #165
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    Thaur, take it from a seasoned healer. In Cata or classic you might have had a point. But in WotLK we healers are spamming heals on you. While a dodge may buy us a breather, overall health pool and relyable mitigation is far better. We can't plan for lucky dodges. They are nice if they are there but you can't bank on them. Armor and HP is always there for you.
    1% more avoid at todays item level comes at a very high price. We've been on the ugly end of DR ever since full T8. Things haven't improved with T10.
    1% physical damage reduce on the other hand you can count on.
    2% more avoid is nothing. Overall, yes, it may be 2% less damage taken. But overall you take a 1000 times your lifes worth of damage. So overall isn't something I would count on. Because over all you are quite, quite dead.

    The thing is as a tank when you can get the certainty you will be able to survive 2 straight, unblocked, unavoided hits is much more valuable than reducing the likelyhood that you will take two straight, unblocked, unavoided hits. At 52% avoid(and I'm being generous here...ICC debuff and all) you are not reducing the likelyhood to be hit twice in a meaningful way as compared to 50% avoid. It's not as if I, as your healer, would say
    "Oh, he has got 2% more avoid because he has swapped a trinket. I can relax now."
    I will be at ease when you turn up with 70k HP(post-ICC buff + raid buffs), 35k+ armor(also post buff), chugg an indestructible potion when the going gets tough and I will still heal on every GCD.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    What I am disputing is the notion that "EH", especially armor, but even stamina, is preferable to dodge even if you have a choice between a piece of gear with a relatively small amount of EH vs. one with a much larger amount of dodge. I think you're taking a good idea and pushing it too far.

    The only real way to make informed decisions is to find some way to quantify the relative value of armor and dodge that takes into account armor's advantage of being "always on". I think we agree that that's impossible, so maybe a dose of humility, and at least a few caveats would be in order. Sure, the TL;DR version might legitimately be "just stack stam and armor", but considering how much effort and typing you put into it, some ackowledgement of the limits of what you're saying would be useful.
    But what we're saying is those limits are limits you simply won't see in WotLK. The easiest 3 trinkets to get (the black heart, essence of gossimir, and glyph of indom) are all better than H-CTC. I take those increases hands down because damage take over long periods of time DOES NOT MATTER as long as mana is not an issue, which it's not. I say this later when I compare actual gear selections later in this post.

    That is going to be the biggest armor/stam vs. avoidance gap you will find in WotLK, and even then it's no contest imo. If you can find me a reasonable situation where you'd be trading 10 armor for 2%+ more dodge than I might concede, but based on my findings and the conclusions of the graphs and the effects of CotT, EHP > pretty much any amount of avoidance in ICC.

    I mean... if you don't draw those conclusions from the graphs, especially the one in section 6, then I can't help you any. If you want to take it to PMs then lets do so, but no one has been able to provide me any evidence, let alone any conclusive evidence, to prove that avoidance has near the value of EHP in ICC.

    Also this:
    Our conclusions are that avoidance modifies damage taken over time, and average damage taken per second. However, it does not modify the max damage taken per second (maxDTPS), the minimum time to die (minTTD), or the minimum time to die with heals (minTTDwHeals). How it is pretty blatantly obvious that if HPS > maxDTPS, then as long as you have enough hit points to survive 1 or 2 hits and your healers are on the ball and can heal you up, then nothing else really matters. However, if HPS becomes lower than maxDTPS, then you have to start worrying about minTTD and minTTDwHeals. maxDTPS obviously occurs when you get an unlucky avoidance streak. Therefore, while avoidance doesn’t modify minTTD or minTTDwHeals, it does modify the frequency at which minTTD or minTTD with heals occurs.
    Survivability is needed when avoidance fails and healing drops below damage taken. Armor and stam are the only things that can save you (at least in terms of physical damage but you can't dodge magic attacks anyways so I assume the avoidance vs. EHP debate is on the same playing field). I choose any amount of marginal but guaranteed survivability gain over a small RNG % any day.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    The Coin provides over twice as much damage reduction as the Glyph, at my current values, without taking into account the proc/use attributes of the trinkets.
    No, not really. Calling it 2% damage reduction is somewhat disingenuous. You'll see that 2% over a statistically significant sample, absolutely. You might see it over a given run through the instance. You won't see 2% on this attack, or probably even this fight. That's the problem with avoidance versus "always-on" EHP.
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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I choose any amount of marginal but guaranteed survivability gain over a small RNG % any day.
    That statement is really the only problem with your whole concept here. And again, I believe your mentality arises from the current problems facing Warrior tanks. Other classes have enough talents and abilities to deal with worst case scenarios that they don't have to be as paranoid as you do.

    Which is why, in my specific scenario described above, I feel comfortable taking a piece of gear with a higher base amount of dodge (and a proc that is not half bad at all) over one with a smaller amount of armor. But like I said, I have plenty of armor. My other gear choices are built around pieces like the Pillars of Might with large amounts of bonus armor. I just think you're being extreme here, perhaps for understandable reasons relating to the limitations of your class.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    No, not really. Calling it 2% damage reduction is somewhat disingenuous. You'll see that 2% over a statistically significant sample, absolutely. You might see it over a given run through the instance. You won't see 2% on this attack, or probably even this fight. That's the problem with avoidance versus "always-on" EHP.
    Based on a quick estimate (which could be slightly off), Festergut swings about 50 times during the "three inhales" phase. 10% dodge means (on average) he will completely miss 5 times due to dodge alone (not counting other avoidance). That is nothing to scoff at.

    I agree, if you are in a situation where your health is routinely going from full to dead in a couple of swings, you should follow the advice given here. It's just that it literally never happens to me at this point. Even when all of my healers are dead on a wipe, it almost always takes a boss 10-15 seconds to finish me off one on one. On 10 man I can be standing there for a minute or two saying "kill me already". I have seen Warriors have the insta-gib problem. I have seen DKs have that problem. I haven't seen Paladins or Druids have that problem very often at all.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    Based on a quick estimate (which could be slightly off), Festergut swings about 50 times during the "three inhales" phase. 10% dodge means (on average) he will completely miss 5 times due to dodge alone (not counting other avoidance). That is nothing to scoff at.

    I agree, if you are in a situation where your health is routinely going from full to dead in a couple of swings, you should follow the advice given here. It's just that it literally never happens to me at this point. Even when all of my healers are dead on a wipe, it almost always takes a boss 10-15 seconds to finish me off one on one. On 10 man I can be standing there for a minute or two saying "kill me already". I have seen Warriors have the insta-gib problem. I have seen DKs have that problem. I haven't seen Paladins or Druids have that problem very often at all.

    To be straight forward at certain levels of gearing it is called Over-gearing if you can put CTC in your slot and do Perfectly fine you can also do the fight without anything in that slot.

  11. #171
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    I agree with Agg, Thau - it's got nothing to do with being a paladin or warrior.

    Now, here's the thing.
    The more hits you can take in a row, the more valuable avoidance becomes. There's a balance to be struck here, and it's hard to nail down. However, at the current challenging fights, I live for three or so blows. That's with 72k hp, 40k armor. At those numbers, you can't risk counting on something that may work, so you should rely on something that will work.
    If I do fights where the damage is far less, I sometimes run with an avoidance set which gives me around 70% avoidance self-buffed. I also sometimes run with a set that makes me look just like a warlock, though. (Hat still missing. )

    Oh, and since you are a paladin, you should run some numbers about how armor affects block values.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    There's a balance to be struck here, and it's hard to nail down.
    Thank you, that's all I was looking for. If we could all agree on that, there might be a productive discussion to be had.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    Based on a quick estimate (which could be slightly off), Festergut swings about 50 times during the "three inhales" phase. 10% dodge means (on average) he will completely miss 5 times due to dodge alone (not counting other avoidance). That is nothing to scoff at.

    I agree, if you are in a situation where your health is routinely going from full to dead in a couple of swings, you should follow the advice given here. It's just that it literally never happens to me at this point. Even when all of my healers are dead on a wipe, it almost always takes a boss 10-15 seconds to finish me off one on one. On 10 man I can be standing there for a minute or two saying "kill me already". I have seen Warriors have the insta-gib problem. I have seen DKs have that problem. I haven't seen Paladins or Druids have that problem very often at all.

    You aren't doing hardmodes. I have both a druid and a paladin, and let me tell you, on hard mode, hard hitting bosses like marrowgar and festergut are not very forgiving if you aren't quite awake (I raid late night-early morning, so I sometimes start to get a bit foggy). And yeah, they 2 shot you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    Thank you, that's all I was looking for. If we could all agree on that, there might be a productive discussion to be had.
    Okay, now that that step has been made, agree with the rest of my post and stop arguing yourself silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    That statement is really the only problem with your whole concept here. And again, I believe your mentality arises from the current problems facing Warrior tanks. Other classes have enough talents and abilities to deal with worst case scenarios that they don't have to be as paranoid as you do.

    Which is why, in my specific scenario described above, I feel comfortable taking a piece of gear with a higher base amount of dodge (and a proc that is not half bad at all) over one with a smaller amount of armor. But like I said, I have plenty of armor. My other gear choices are built around pieces like the Pillars of Might with large amounts of bonus armor. I just think you're being extreme here, perhaps for understandable reasons relating to the limitations of your class.
    Two responses:
    1) What problems with warrior tanks? We have more cooldowns than any other class, we're like the batman of tanks, especially if we have 4pc bonus. I've never ever had any problem tanking anything. I am a firm believer that if you are underperforming as a warrior vs. another class, you're doing it wrong.

    2) At the very beginning of this post:
    Section 1: Introduction to Effective Health
    I’ll start out with the most controversial section first, since it’s also probably the most likely part to be read. There are quite a few tanks out there that will fight tooth and nail about EHP vs. marginal gains in avoidance or threat. Many take a “balanced” approach to tanking. While that is fine in non-progression raids or when you out gear something to the point you might as well gem spirit, for progression tanking it is not optimal, and the following sections will try to show why.
    You outgear normal festergut. I tanked that with far worse gear without any % buff when it first came out just fine, but I did it because I stacked EHP and especially armor. Pretty sure you can be grossly suboptimal for that fight now and still lol all over it. Before there was a buff at all in a 5 second interval I took 100k damage, but I was able to survive it because I stacked armor and stam. Any tank gearing for avoidance would have died hands down. Anyone doing H-LK25 (probably the only fight you can't REALLY outgear atm) also knows it is an EHP fight all the way.

    This post isn't about when you outgear something you've already killed, it's to try and help tanks who are still gearing/progressing through content. If you want to talk about what you do once you over gear it then that's a whole 'nother topic that frankly doesn't matter.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 07-19-2010 at 07:34 PM.
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    Any tank gearing for avoidance would have died hands down. Anyone doing H-LK25 (probably the only fight you can't REALLY outgear atm) also knows it is an EHP fight all the way.
    Eh. Gearing for avoidance as a tank isn't exactly a huge difference either; we're talking about 10k health for 5-6% avoidance. And if you had decent healers you could survive 100k in 5 seconds assuming you weren't going to be two-shot.

    Avoidance really shines when you can rely on a very large number of hits to kill you. If that's the case - regardless of how fast the hits come in - avoidance starts becoming statistically relevant and reliable, and you can start reasonably comparing it in the same way (ie, a x% chance to reduce damage by 100% vs a 100% chance to reduce damage by x%). That is very likely going to be the model in Cataclysm, and that combined with the advantage of reducing damage vs. soaking it for healer mana will likely help armor and avoidance over stamina.

    But for now, that's not the case. Things don't kill you in 10 hits, they kill you in two. The chances that you're going to avoid that second hit are, well, only 1% better given 1% more dodge. It's just not that advantageous. Now, I agree - having the tradeoff between (for example) 10 armor and 1% dodge is stupid. (though it's been argued on these forums, amusingly enough). But there's no reasonable tradeoff in gear slots right now. You'll actually find that if you run a simulator, a 1% boost to your armor will reduce just as much damage as a 2% boost to your avoidance due to how armor works. They're functionally identical in terms of reducing average damage in a fight - with the added bonus for armor that it has no statistical variance.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Two responses:
    1) What problems with warrior tanks? We have more cooldowns than any other class, we're like the batman of tanks, especially if we have 4pc bonus. I've never ever had any problem tanking anything. I am a firm believer that if you are underperforming as a warrior vs. another class, you're doing it wrong.
    Not to raise a sore point, but you said you were benched...

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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Eh. Gearing for avoidance as a tank isn't exactly a huge difference either; we're talking about 10k health for 5-6% avoidance. And if you had decent healers you could survive 100k in 5 seconds assuming you weren't going to be two-shot.

    Avoidance really shines when you can rely on a very large number of hits to kill you. If that's the case - regardless of how fast the hits come in - avoidance starts becoming statistically relevant and reliable, and you can start reasonably comparing it in the same way (ie, a x% chance to reduce damage by 100% vs a 100% chance to reduce damage by x%). That is very likely going to be the model in Cataclysm, and that combined with the advantage of reducing damage vs. soaking it for healer mana will likely help armor and avoidance over stamina.

    But for now, that's not the case. Things don't kill you in 10 hits, they kill you in two. The chances that you're going to avoid that second hit are, well, only 1% better given 1% more dodge. It's just not that advantageous. Now, I agree - having the tradeoff between (for example) 10 armor and 1% dodge is stupid. (though it's been argued on these forums, amusingly enough). But there's no reasonable tradeoff in gear slots right now. You'll actually find that if you run a simulator, a 1% boost to your armor will reduce just as much damage as a 2% boost to your avoidance due to how armor works. They're functionally identical in terms of reducing average damage in a fight - with the added bonus for armor that it has no statistical variance.
    The thing is, as I've said, I'm not disagreeing with the basic premise. I just think it's being taken to an extreme in this thread. I think the subject is being over-simplified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaurissan View Post
    The thing is, as I've said, I'm not disagreeing with the basic premise. I just think it's being taken to an extreme in this thread. I think the subject is being over-simplified.
    It's not being taken to an extreme, and it's not being over-simplified. You are wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

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    Agg, I was generally with you until you said 172 dodge rating and 6.4k armor proc was worse than 111 Stamina. That's taking it a wee bit too far, IMO.

    (Although I would agree the H:CTC is not a very great trinket, neither is Essence of Gossamer at this content level.)
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