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Thread: Why We Do What We Do (An in depth explanation of EHP and ICC 3.3.3 tanking mechanics)

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon
    maybe you're confused by another term.

    When we say HPS we mean Healing Per Second, not Hit Points, or am I just misinterpreting a misunderstanding?
    tlitp=tlitp=tlitp0. I'm neither affiliated with kibuzo, neither a clone. That much said, the hasty one wasn't me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber
    Block capping in any level of gear, with a 20% avoidance debuff, is impossible.
    * Under the aforementioned constraint, passive block-capping is merely impractical.
    * Active block-capping (SB, Deliverance) is another matter altogether. Surprisingly, the context is different as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    I think I see it. One is talking about combat mechanics, one about itemization and gearing decisions. Yeah, that may be an issue. *grins*
    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio
    Effective Health is promoted as the best path currently because Armor always works when you take physical damage. (I)

    I hope this gives you some insight into the popular consensus and I hope you give it a chance. I'm all for stopping and considering whether the popular choice is the best choice, but sometimes you have to realize that perhaps your initial assumptions that are the foundation of your belief system aren't correct and that's why you aren't drawing the same conclusions as everyone else. (II)
    I. Respectively : Impale; non-stochastic mechanics (i.e. mitigation) attached to stochastic events (i.e. getting hit).
    II. I'm well aware of the current metrics of tanking. Their strengths and their shortcomings. And I honestly believe that anyone which finds in this thread more answers than questions is... "doin' it wrong".
    That much said, keep in mind that my perspective is fundamentally skewed. What regular players deem as "nitpicks"/"non-issues"/"lol semantics", I do not. As a (model) developer I cannot afford to. Look at WarTotem/Kojiyama/Theck's posts (to name a few that are present on TS as well), then get the common denominator.

  2. #322
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    You're not being clear.

    Edit: Actually...it appears that you kind of threw yourself into the middle of some other person's misunderstanding and then I misunderstood wtf you were talking about....or not talking about.

    I still have no idea what you're talking about, but at least I see where I made my bad assumption about what you were saying...
    Last edited by Ion; 08-24-2010 at 03:13 PM. Reason: confusing...

  3. #323
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    tlitp i don't think they're talking to you bro...

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  4. #324
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    Ok, Stamina vs Strength gems:

    1 Stamina gem = 30 Stamina
    1 Strength gem = 20 Strength

    Assuming Kings & ICC buffs (I'll exclude talent scaling, which actually favors stamina, but you'll see why later)

    1 Stamina gem = 33 Stamina = 429 HP
    1 Strength gem = 22 Strength = 11 base Block Value

    Now if I take my Warrior into ICC with those stats and pop Shield Block right as I'm about to get a streak (the best worst case scenario), I get...
    Shield Spec: +30% block value
    Shield Block: +100% block value
    Because they're additive, you get a total of 230% base Block Value.

    In this case, popping Shield Block gives you 25.3 Block Value. (I'll be generous with the partial value here)
    429 HP / 25.3 BV = 16.96

    In other words, a boss would need to hit you 17 TIMES without you receiving ANY overhealing for strength/block to be better.
    Let's not forget, that this is only true while I have Shield Block up, which only lasts 10 seconds. Without Shield Block (or being a Paladin), I would need to block 30!!! times to equal that 429 HP. And as stated before, this is actually without any +Stamina or Strength talents, which would put block even further down.
    Or to put it in gearing terms: 1 Stamina gem is worth your entire gear socketed with Strength.

    The only Block Value I would ever suggest gemming/enchanting for atm is the Shield Plating, simply because it gives 13 times as much BV per stamina than gems, making it useful as soon as you block 2-3 times in a stressful situation (which is actually pretty decent).

    Now unless you're telling me that you have so much HP you can actually stay alive and not topped off for 30 seconds, I'ld like to know where you got your gear, because that's something I've yet to see in ICC hardmodes
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  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlitp View Post
    I. Respectively : Impale; non-stochastic mechanics (i.e. mitigation) attached to stochastic events (i.e. getting hit).
    II. I'm well aware of the current metrics of tanking. Their strengths and their shortcomings. And I honestly believe that anyone which finds in this thread more answers than questions is... "doin' it wrong".
    That much said, keep in mind that my perspective is fundamentally skewed. What regular players deem as "nitpicks"/"non-issues"/"lol semantics", I do not. As a (model) developer I cannot afford to. Look at WarTotem/Kojiyama/Theck's posts (to name a few that are present on TS as well), then get the common denominator.
    It's no secret that I'm not Kojiyama. He's absolutely better at proving his point on forums than I am because he is willing to go the extra mile to say things 100% semantically correct. (Probably b/c of his EJ upbringing ) He'll take the time to make bullet proof arguments, I won't. I'm willing to give readers the benefit of the doubt that they'll get what I'm saying. I know when I do this that those that wish to "win" the argument by nitpicking the semantics of my post are going to be able to. I'm okay with that. Ultimately, if you're that type of person, then it's unlikely that I can change your mind anyway.

    You saying that Impale exists doesn't mean Armor is bad even though that's what you're trying to do.

    You saying that I give too many answers and not enough questions, doesn't make my point that Strength is a terrible way to gem, any less correct.

    No matter what your position in life, I recommend you attack my arguments rather than the semantics behind them. You'll gain much more respect, recognition and overall understanding of mechanics by doing that. Sure, you'll win a few less arguments on the internet... but then those don't really mean much anyway.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    You really can't make statements like this without explaining it with an example and including numbers for people to see what you're talking about. Here is why I beleive your statement is false:

    Lets assume I have enough armor to reduce damage taken by 70%. If the hit is 20K, then I end up taking 6K damage, mitigating 14K damage. Now scale that hit up to 40K and I will take 12K damage, but my armor mitigated 28K damage. This is why I say armor scales, the bigger the hit the more damage it removes.

    On the other hand, 350 BV will only remove 350 damage, whether the hit is for 2K or 40K. That is why BV doesn't scale with incoming damage, it is always a fixed amount per hit, regardless of the size.
    Sorry i misunderstood. I tought that you meant something like "your armor increases with raid buffs more than str does". You are totally right about this part.
    In fact i'm not against armor. The only problem with block value is that it's not taken into account for this studies (and it can't reliably be taken into account since we can't know the exact block rating in advance... i mean the effectiveness of block value is related to the ammount of block rating), so mathematically it always looks that we are talking about nothing with the flames that we are all seeing.
    When i'll have time i'll try to come back with something more for you, we're getting to the point in which if someone says something obvious that you (and by you i mean "most of you", not strictly you) missed you flame him/her with the "provide math" stuff, and i'm good food for trolls since i usually get nervous quite easily. I don't want to do that so ignore me as long as you are not fine with the stile of my posts, i'm not here to change your minds nor to have people saying "wow! thanks, you are a great guy you changed my life forever", i just wanted to discuss about something BEFORE putting the math to quantify it, the satisfactions from the life are others :P
    Thanks all for discussing, i'll check back when i'll have numbers (when i'll have time to provide them :P)

    For those who wants to get the point of my observations: it's absolutely useless to go on talking about the hits you can take before dieing unless you want to solo istances. My point is that i want to keep healer relaxed/having them focused more on the rest of the raid, it's not a matter of mana too, it's a matter of burst hps. There are bosses in which an healer reaches like 16k HPS under heavy workload as i have seen on saurfang hard. Well, that is the point in which having to heal 500 per second less can easily mean keep up the guy with the mark -> not wipe. Try to tink about it as homework instead of sticking to your positions :P
    Last edited by kibuzo; 08-24-2010 at 03:48 PM. Reason: added last part

  7. #327
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    I actually do include block value in my spreadsheet, I just never fixed it. It's just my opinion that even as a paladin the damage taken isn't really enough to affect the avoidance runtime curves. Yes it does have some marginal benefit, but I seriously just do not see any real world gear/enchant/gemming situation where doing anything with block would be better than an EHP choice. The sole exception MIGHT be 71 block value to shield vs. 18 stam, but even then, the numbers have been run on it and at least for warriors it's only better against raw physical damage when shield block is up.

    Like... show me how I could add it in other than average damage over time characteristics (which is decently irrelevant in current content and 71 BV to shield isn't gonna fix it) and then maybe I'll consider it, but from all the math I've done and see I just don't see any "real" (WoW) world application other than maybe a fancy academic discussion that in the end is moot anyways if you can't apply it in game.

    We;re
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  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I actually do include block value in my spreadsheet, I just never fixed it. It's just my opinion that even as a paladin the damage taken isn't really enough to affect the avoidance runtime curves. Yes it does have some marginal benefit, but I seriously just do not see any real world gear/enchant/gemming situation where doing anything with block would be better than an EHP choice. The sole exception MIGHT be 71 block value to shield vs. 18 stam, but even then, the numbers have been run on it and at least for warriors it's only better against raw physical damage when shield block is up.

    Like... show me how I could add it in other than average damage over time characteristics (which is decently irrelevant in current content and 71 BV to shield isn't gonna fix it) and then maybe I'll consider it, but from all the math I've done and see I just don't see any "real" (WoW) world application other than maybe a fancy academic discussion that in the end is moot anyways if you can't apply it in game.

    We;re
    Same with EHP, and my healers agree with me. Stamina is totally useless over a decent ammount. And nobody has shown me yet how can it help healers apart from slacking healers that don't heal me for 30 secs. I don't need a car with a huge tank to save money, only a car that sucks less gasoline. Different points of view, i guess, i follow the orders of my healers :P
    And you are right, it's much harder to suck less gasoline than to just add extra room for extra gasoline, but if you don't have enough money no matter how much gasoline you put at the beginning, it will suddenly end. So all you can do is to save that 1%, much better than being able to carry 20% more.
    Goodnight now

  9. #329
    Stamina is totally useless over a decent ammount.
    That's never, ever true.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    That's never, ever true.

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  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    Only think before getting healers that keep healing you even if you are full health :P
    You clearly have no experience or understanding of how tank healing in WotLK works. This is why your whole arguement is just wrong and I won't continue to try and convince someone who doesn't understand the basics of the point they're trying to argue.

  12. #332
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    I'd like to point out once again that this article is designed for ICC PROGRESSION fights. If you're farming normal modes then whatever. If you're undergeared and still progressing or well geared and working on H-TLK25 then you should be gearing/gemming/enchanting for EHP.

    Edit: also your analogy doesn't really equate but I get what you're trying to say. Overall though, I think you're wrong and your healers are feeding you bs. you have an armory link?
    Last edited by Aggathon; 08-24-2010 at 06:08 PM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    Same with EHP, and my healers agree with me. Stamina is totally useless over a decent ammount. And nobody has shown me yet how can it help healers apart from slacking healers that don't heal me for 30 secs.
    As an experienced ICC healer I can tell you that either you're taking along WAY too many healers, or they're full of shit. EHP allows them to heal more than just you, it allows them to not have to emergency-heal after they get stunned/feared/whatever and if they honestly care about you're avoidance then they're either a) healing reactively, which is a bad way to heal ICC, or b) cast cancelling so they need less mp5 on their gear and can get more SP/crit/haste, at which point they should have gotten you a LK25HM kill with that much skill. (Thus, not needing EHP for progression anymore anyway)

    I don't need a car with a huge tank to save money, only a car that sucks less gasoline. Different points of view, i guess, i follow the orders of my healers :P
    Take a hypothetical car that uses 1/10th of your average one and then try leaving home with a pint glass worth of gasoline. You'ld probably won't even get to the gas station. If you watch Top Gear, go look up the old Geneve-Manchester single gas tank run those guys did. The guy that got the furthest was actually the gas-guzzling Jaguar that had a tank more than twice the size of others.

    And you are right, it's much harder to suck less gasoline than to just add extra room for extra gasoline, but if you don't have enough money no matter how much gasoline you put at the beginning, it will suddenly end. So all you can do is to save that 1%, much better than being able to carry 20% more.
    Goodnight now
    Actually, I'ld take the 20% more, because I can fill it up when the prices are lower(=non-stressful situations for healers) and save me more than that 1% efficiency will.


    Edit: Coming back on your HPS issue: Check any progression fight log and see how much Overhealing your healers have done on the tank. Scratch Bacon of Light and see where you end up, it'll probably be 50% of all healing = overhealing. Or in your gasoline analogy: Healers are millionaires. Filling up a gas tank costs relatively little to them, they just don't want to have to go to the gas station every other day, because that takes time they can better spend making more money!
    Last edited by Airowird; 08-25-2010 at 01:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    Same with EHP, and my healers agree with me. Stamina is totally useless over a decent ammount. And nobody has shown me yet how can it help healers apart from slacking healers that don't heal me for 30 secs.
    "My healers agree with me" is not an argument. This topic is about gearing for progression, not for farming easy content. There are many factors in progression like learning, having worse gear than needed, etc. You don't have more than enough stamina during progression. Also you should take into account, that a lot of tanking abilities and cooldowns rely on your total HP, so EHP not only helps your survivability directly but also indirectly through some of your cooldowns / abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    I don't need a car with a huge tank to save money, only a car that sucks less gasoline. Different points of view, i guess, i follow the orders of my healers :P
    Not the best example. Whatever you do while driving car, you're not able to burn all gasoline in a matter of 10 seconds. Burning gasoline is NOT random either, it depends on how you operate gas pedal. You have control over it. And you can't control block or avoidance.

  15. #335
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    Guys why are you all thinking that the most i'm doing is DTK heroic?
    I "just" formed a new guild, in 3 weeks we managed to make 8 hard modes first kill in icc10 hard, during a vacation time like august is we are not currently raiding much, or we are doing it with reserves, and still we are able to do some hard mode.
    My char name is Tubolinag from runetotem in magazzino ananas guild, you can check it. But i would like to discuss over this, it's not that i have to justify myself for having different opinions guys, please, be serious.
    And 2 of all those nerds that always show numbers and never troll around have answered me "That's never, ever true.". Now, i suppose, i'm still the one who's trolling?
    All i can tell you is that i never wiped because of healers having to turn around or stuff, when it happens i use my cooldowns, that's what they are for. And i don't care if that's not enough for you, the game is about progresion, your opinion does not count more than facts, and it should not count more for you too. And it's not that common to have to use cooldowns, actually. Having 64kHP icc full buffed instead of 74Khp does not seem to be the key to me on emergency situations, compared to a cooldown that lets me take half damage (that is when you can use EHP) 10kHP are nothing (and don't let me demonstrate it please. It's like 260k vs 300k, there's much slacking space in those 12 seconds :P)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...?s=8437&e=8742 <- This is blood queen heroic if that's enough of an example. 20-28% overhealing at most that you would have probably had with huge hit points too, since healers usually like to keep their tanks full hp and all their dots tend to overheal. If you are in a condition that forces you to have 50% overhealing than probably you did not understand the game and you need to switch, or your healers are better to respec.
    Couldn't you, for a second, focus on other than your magnificence and think, at least, that it might be another way to think healing and tanking and that blizzard is not actually trying to screw up with gear while putting red sockets in your gear in order to get bonuses?

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=6729&target=2 Oh look! the hp geared tank is getting the same overhealing!
    Last edited by kibuzo; 08-25-2010 at 04:12 AM.

  16. #336
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    You do know that as tanks, your job isn't to gear to reduce overhealing? And you do know that the average Holy Paladin has somewhere over 80% overhealing?

    And the thing is with 10 man heroic content at the moment is that (aside from perhaps lich king) its really, really easy with the 30% buff. A "full avoidance" tank will likely have more HP than the tanks gearing for full EH at 0% buff. This is called overgearing content that is no longer progression. Even if you have never cleared that content before, you're likely in pretty good gear from pugging the first 4 bosses in ICC 25 and you're running in with a massive 30% buff to everything.

    I'll tell you something. Once, before the 5% buff came in, I was working on Saurfang 10 heroic with my guild. I was wearing my full armor set for effective health, and my Holy Paladin says "you're getting hit so much". So I say this is the best way to gear for the fight, but I can try an avoidance set out.

    This took 245 pieces with high avoidance over 264 armor pieces with low avoidance, it also was gemmed and enchanted for full avoidance. I built this set because it was believed at the time that saurfang did not damage the marked people if the tank avoided the hit, which was later proven wrong. So anyway, I put on this set and despite not "getting hit so much", my Holy Paladin found it far worse that every time I took an unlucky streak of hits, I would drop really dangerously low on health and usually in these scenarios I would die.

    The point being that despite being slightly harder to heal in an effective health set than a higher avoidance set, when the avoidance let me down (ie. I didn't avoid hits for a while) I would die, whereas I would survive in the effective health gear. With Chill of the Throne, avoidance lets you down A LOT, to the point where we may as well not rely on it at all. If there was no Chill of the Throne, we probably would gear more for avoidance and it would even because "reliable" almost like effective health, which has been proven recently by people much smarter than me.

    And YES you do effectively overgear 10 hc fights with the 30% buff. I've healed heroic modes on my priest, with tanks in an average gear level of 232, something I could have never done with 0% buff.

  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passive View Post
    You do know that as tanks, your job isn't to gear to reduce overhealing? And you do know that the average Holy Paladin has somewhere over 80% overhealing?

    And the thing is with 10 man heroic content at the moment is that (aside from perhaps lich king) its really, really easy with the 30% buff. A "full avoidance" tank will likely have more HP than the tanks gearing for full EH at 0% buff. This is called overgearing content that is no longer progression. Even if you have never cleared that content before, you're likely in pretty good gear from pugging the first 4 bosses in ICC 25 and you're running in with a massive 30% buff to everything.

    I'll tell you something. Once, before the 5% buff came in, I was working on Saurfang 10 heroic with my guild. I was wearing my full armor set for effective health, and my Holy Paladin says "you're getting hit so much". So I say this is the best way to gear for the fight, but I can try an avoidance set out.

    This took 245 pieces with high avoidance over 264 armor pieces with low avoidance, it also was gemmed and enchanted for full avoidance. I built this set because it was believed at the time that saurfang did not damage the marked people if the tank avoided the hit, which was later proven wrong. So anyway, I put on this set and despite not "getting hit so much", my Holy Paladin found it far worse that every time I took an unlucky streak of hits, I would drop really dangerously low on health and usually in these scenarios I would die.

    The point being that despite being slightly harder to heal in an effective health set than a higher avoidance set, when the avoidance let me down (ie. I didn't avoid hits for a while) I would die, whereas I would survive in the effective health gear. With Chill of the Throne, avoidance lets you down A LOT, to the point where we may as well not rely on it at all. If there was no Chill of the Throne, we probably would gear more for avoidance and it would even because "reliable" almost like effective health, which has been proven recently by people much smarter than me.

    And YES you do effectively overgear 10 hc fights with the 30% buff. I've healed heroic modes on my priest, with tanks in an average gear level of 232, something I could have never done with 0% buff.
    Again with this crap!
    Marrowgar 10 hard is much harder than marrowgar 25 hard, hardest encounters in 25m are the ones in which you need room for moving like it could be on blood princes putricide and blood queen. Sindragosa is easier too, and i'm not the only one who says it.
    Now that you say that the current gear level required for heroics is 232 ilvl i'm waiting for you to make a vid with a LK25 hero with a raid full-245.
    Many guilds with full 264 people dressed with stamina gems are still trying the lich king 10m, without success. If you are talking about boosting one single member i'm not gonna listen anymore, you are out of arguments.
    Please, come on. I used to believe that tankspot was serious thing, not anymore, i'm wasting my time.
    Keep up the good job on trolling... without me. bye :P

    BTW the main topic and the replies are all based on the assumption that you need to be able to take extra hits. No one has shown it mathematically yet, you, bunch of trolls, haha!

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    My char name is Tubolinag from runetotem in magazzino ananas guild, you can check it.
    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...m&cn=Tubolinag ?

    Eeshk. Recommended reading. Speccing into an AP reduction is going to do more for your survivability than those strength gems, since I don't see an AP debuff on any of your boss kills. That BQL kill linked also appears to be the only one with a boss attack speed slow applied, or at least with respectable (EDITED from ">5% because there's some ~30% uptime logs I missed) uptime.

    FURTHER EDIT: fail on my part. Judgements of the Just has sporadic uptime on most bosses; it's mostly fine. Still missing an AP debuff, though.

    I would suggest you and your co-tank read up on the 969 rotation (Holy Wrath on single targets?), and some of the guides on maintankadin and Jere's guide here. Also, to quote you from earlier in the thread:

    Also, having more str on tankadins will get you to more aggro (=start damage immediately) and last but not least more dps, which can easily mean 4000 dps on a single target boss with movements
    You would do significantly more DPS with a correct rotation and a 53/18 spec (and glyphing correctly; Glyph of Judgement but no Glyph of Seal of Vengeance makes absolutely no sense), never mind gemming strength to cover those flaws. FINAL (!) EDIT: no Glyph of Sense Undead either. Free damage going to waste.
    Last edited by Lumines; 08-25-2010 at 06:01 AM.

  19. #339
    Please, come on. I used to believe that tankspot was serious thing, not anymore, i'm wasting my time.
    Keep up the good job on trolling... without me. bye :P
    Yeah, we're trolling. I'm sorry, but you've got half the TankSpot community (blatant exaggeration!) trying to explain things to you and you're pretty much replying with, "Nut-uh."

    It doesn't make for much discussion.

    No one has shown it mathematically yet, you, bunch of trolls, haha!
    /sigh

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    Same with EHP, and my healers agree with me. Stamina is totally useless over a decent ammount. And nobody has shown me yet how can it help healers apart from slacking healers that don't heal me for 30 secs. I don't need a car with a huge tank to save money, only a car that sucks less gasoline. Different points of view, i guess, i follow the orders of my healers :P
    And you are right, it's much harder to suck less gasoline than to just add extra room for extra gasoline, but if you don't have enough money no matter how much gasoline you put at the beginning, it will suddenly end. So all you can do is to save that 1%, much better than being able to carry 20% more.
    Goodnight now
    As a healer, give me a tank with stam any time. I'll give you a real world example. Last week, we're doing an ICC alt run and I'm healing on my pally. We have a bear tank and a DK and we're on BPC. With 30% to go in the fight the other healers go down and I now get to raid heal on the pally. We downed them, but what gave me some room was my Bear tank getting to over 100k at times so I could keep the dps, the other tank and myself up. He kept kissing one shot territory, at one point he went down to 400 HP (no exateration) and I kept hearing "I'm dead" in vent, but without the stam, I'd have had no room to work. It's not about "lazy" healers, it's about what gives you the best chance to effectively deal with the unexpected.

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