Why We Do What We Do (An in depth explanation of EHP and ICC 3.3.3 tanking mechanics)

[kibuzo]

You're calling it a no-go because people tend to believe the analysis with math and theory, as opposed to your wall of supposition and anecdote? Apparently you don't have all that much conviction to your beliefs.

Please, PLEASE. I'm studying physics at the university, 4th year, don't come and tell me that i believe the suppositions and anedocte instead on analysis and math theory, that are my daily bread, i think that i know math more than average people that come into these forums, probably my only problem is that i don't stop and tell "you are right" whenever i see a gaussian curve but i go deeper into the analysis.
I already told you all: the math seems right, and that analysis is correct. It might be that i fail to explain myself in a language that is not my native language but you seem not to understand my point here, my point is that this study seems to be more about "with EHP you can take much more hits than with avoidance" (captain obvius does not even need math, i guess that was quite obvious :P), and that is extremely superficial, at least with paladins that have a lot of block rating for free. So the fact is: the analysis is correct, but it's totally useless because we don't want to talk about it.
Actually i posted a math example, the fact that it's simple does not mean that it's useless, that's actually the main goal of science: to make hard things simple. If you want to, instead of making an example of how much do i last with an average damage of X i'll make a complicated example about how high is the probability to last longer under a continuous damaging attack that will be more likely X but will be able to vary of 2 sigma that i will calculate from experimental data gathered around from logs and at that point i'll tell that there is a Y% probability that the block guy will last longer than the stamina guy. But we don't need to tell us lies: we all know that that Y value will be much higher than 90. The point here is not about math, it's about the axioms, and there is no way in which you can discuss them mathematically, as long as we don't agree on this we will stick to our opinions and we will never grow up.
Now, i'm ready to discuss wether we need a healer to be able to do less HPS or if it's better for him to have like 5 seconds to be away from you and heal the others, all the rest is the trolling you are talking about, satrina.

[tlitp]

As far as how many hits you can take, on fights like TLK and Sindragosa it's more like taking 2-3 hits, not 5 or 6, I just use a hit count that high in section 6 to show that even when the hit string is that long, avoidance in ICC is so low that it's really hard to get it up to levels that would really make a difference (which is around 70% or so).

I have already pointed out in a previous post that f(n,k,p) is sound as far as theory goes. Choosing meaningful values of the parameters at hand is the difficult task.

Expanding on this : when the consumption rate of the mana pool is not really a concern, the average values of mitigation/avoidance (i.e. k/p) become irrelevant. The focus shifts to the instantaneous values that are likely to be found in a stress scenario. Correspondingly, one should like at the values of k/p in the context of "cooldowns" (used loosely, as a generic term), both intrinsic (abilities, active procs) and extrinsic (the so-called "raid cooldowns").

Furthermore, another pain in the arse. Block-type events. Warriors and paladins do not have the luxury of assessing k values regardless of the said events. (passive block-capping, Shield Block)

[Aggathon]

You might be surprised at how much those of us that theorycraft on here know about math. I'm an electrical engineer, you studying physics doesn't really blow me away, but rather it's par for the course.

I also am REALLY failing to see your overall point like... what real world suggestions would you change, because as far as I can see in ICC paladins sit around 70% unhittable (dodge+miss+parry+block) but that their blocks are comparatively small to the damage being taken. Further more, there isn't really any block or black value gear at the T10 level, so what gear changes would you have us make? Regemming for strength is a REALLY bad idea as is already shown by a post above yours.

I guess the point is... where are you going with this?

[kibuzo]

Didn't see this post by the OP before.



Okay, you threw out some numbers/"facts" here that are massively inflated or just plain wrong.

First of all let's just look at BV on its own. You get 1/2 of your strength as BV. We're going to ignore the strength on your gear because its going to be there whether you gem for stam or str. In my gear I've got 21 gem slots not including my meta. I'm not a BS though, so I'll throw in an extra couple just to make your "strenght is good for mitigation" argument look as good as possible. So 23 sockets, all gemmed with +20 str gems gives me a total of 460 strength, now increase that by 15% from talents to 529, and another 10% from kings brings it up to 582. The 30% ICC buff applies to health and damage done, it doesn't do anything to your base stats, and has zero effect on strength. So you're still at 582 extra str in or out of ICC, which works out to 291 BV. Being extremely generous (i'm lying it's to make the math easier) I'm even going to assume a 50% uptime on redoubt (inc BV by 30%). 30% of 291 BV is 87.3, at 50% of the time averages to 43.65 BV, 44 BV for easy numbers. All added up that's 335 BV from gemming 100% strength.

Bosses' swing timers can vary alot. Some are fairly slow at 2.3 seconds and some can get as low as 1.1 seconds. Even at a 1 second swing timer and assuming you block 100% of hits, you're only removing about 335 damage from each swing, arriving every second, so 335 DPS, or 335 HPS that your healers don't have to put out. That's far less than a renew from a priest, a rejuv from a druid, or even a FoL hot from a holy pally.

You've sacrificed 23 stam gems, which is 690 stamina or 6900 health, before kings, talents, and the 30% ICC buff, which will all push that total health you've lost well over 10K, all for the sake of saving your healers a best case scenario of 335 HPS, which will be far less in reality.

No, strength is a terrible form of mitigation.

I anyone sees any problems with my numbers, please correct me.

335HPS is better than 0 HPS. HPs are a requirement, but when you have reached a "cap" (that might be like 65kHP icc buffed) they are totally useless. Str gemming won't change your life, but still it will help a little bit, stamina won't do it. Actually i did not even believe to pull out 335 HPS more, my goal was 150-200, so i'm not impressed by 335 being "really low", as long as it is all we can do the reduce damage income 5 hps are more than nothing.
Also, 335 can be like 7-8% of DPS incoming, i bet you all believe that it's good or you are gonna tell the same whenever you pick like 8000 more armor? :P

[kibuzo]

You might be surprised at how much those of us that theorycraft on here know about math. I'm an electrical engineer, you studying physics doesn't really blow me away, but rather it's par for the course.

I did not want to play at who's better at math, but i don't accept people that say that i'm scared by numbers

[Theotherone]

further more, there isn't really any block or black value gear at the t10 level, so what gear changes would you have us make?

gem spirit

[MellvarTank]

I did not want to play at who's better at math, but i don't accept people that say that i'm scared by numbers

Then put your money where your mouth is and crunch those numbers. Right now, I'm seeing conjecture and supposition.... with no math. Just like everyone else who has been on your side of the argument.

All we are saying is: I can wish I had a million dollars all I want, that isn't going to make it true.

[Ion]

335HPS is better than 0 HPS.

Actually no. That's very specifically incorrect. Nobody cares about healer's mana...not healers and certainly not tanks.

"Saving HPS" is meaningless. You're either getting overhealed or you're in a stress situation where a block (if it even happens) for 290 more isn't going to save your life, but 10000+ hp probably will.

[Tinytankz]

IF your healers are going OOM ( the only reason you care about HPS AT ALL) there is a good list of crap you need to check first

-Healer skill (aka is he or she even playing correctly)
-Available innervates and pots ( that kitty can pop out for a second to keep healer mana up, hell my bear tank can pop out to innervate a DPS priest on our 10 man)
-DPS IS the fight dragging out so long that you found an enrage timer DBM doesnt even track? tell them to step it up
-Your armor level something you look at before your block value is your GUARANTEED mitigation

[Kazeyonoma]

335HPS is better than 0 HPS
but 335HPS is not better than 10k HP buffer.

[Raysere]

You can't look at WoTLK tank damage on a macro scale. Minute-by-minute survivability is not the issue, healers don't realistically run out of mana and the healing throughput they are able to generate is sufficient. WotLK survivability happens on a micro scale, a second-by-second, blow by blow scale. You don't need to survive a 6 minute fight with no healing, you need to survive those 6 seconds while your healer moves out of the fire, is vile gassed, has unchained magic or defile. You need to survive the burst that the boss can potentially deliver between heals, for example Sindragosa's breath/melee/parry haste. You need to look at gearing choices in the correct context to draw accurate conclusions of there merits. I feel a lot of people don't see this, leading to ill-informed choices.

[Akeber]

Also, 335 can be like 7-8% of DPS incoming, i bet you all believe that it's good or you are gonna tell the same whenever you pick like 8000 more armor? :P

Except that 8K armor would scale, whereas 335 BV does not.

Going back to my question about your raiding experience, what kind of limp-noodle boss are you tanking that 335 less damage taken per second is going to work out to 7-8%? Maybe heroics?

[tlitp]

Expanding on this : when the consumption rate of the mana pool is not really a concern, the average values of mitigation/avoidance (i.e. k/p) become irrelevant. The focus shifts to the instantaneous values that are likely to be found in a stress scenario.

Hmm, a disturbing oversight. I should have mentioned that the presence of stress scenarios also implies two factors that can change dramatically the "bigger picture" :
* the heal-type events are typically more fine-grained
* the relevant values of n are much smaller, making avoidance significantly more valuable than in the long run

(...) their blocks are comparatively small to the damage being taken.

Small, but not irrelevant. Death events are fundamentally discrete. At exactly 40% of your health pool, a 0.405*HP damage input will translate into death occurring now, whereas a 0.395*HP one will not. If block-type events can be taken into consideration in the context of EH-like metrics (i.e. block-capping), one cannot simply ignore them just because they're associated with "tiny" numbers.

Then put your money where your mouth is and crunch those numbers. Right now, I'm seeing conjecture and supposition.... with no math. Just like everyone else who has been on your side of the argument.

To whom does this standing serve ? The "us versus them" paradigm is horrendously counterproductive.

(forgive the extravaganza) DID ANYONE IN THIS THREAD (OR ITS COUNTLESS CLONES) PROVIDE A REASONABLE AND COMPLETE MODEL OF TANKING ? WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT.

[Aggathon]

maybe you're confused by another term.

When we say HPS we mean Healing Per Second, not Hit Points, or am I just misinterpreting a misunderstanding?

[Akeber]

If block-type events can be taken into consideration in the context of EH-like metrics (i.e. block-capping), one cannot simply ignore them just because they're associated with "tiny" numbers.

Block capping in any level of gear, with a 20% avoidance debuff, is impossible. Which makes block a chance and not a certainty. Therefore, in a "worst case" scenario it must be treated like avoidance, except that avoidance is at least a chance to completely avoid the incoming damage. Whereas even if the attack was blocked, most of the blocked damage will come from the str already on gear, with only a tiny portion coming from the strength gems that our mythical strength stacking pally has socketed throughout his gear.

[kibuzo]

i was not talking about OOM, and... it's not really true that armor scales while str does not, it more the contrary :P
Sorry i'm in raid now no time to talk specifically, but please, remember that there's no need to flame, we are all mature and intelligent people, nobody is attacking nobody, we are all just discussing, and we can do it without fighting, that's how we all improve. All, me and you.

[Ion]

Small, but not irrelevant. Death events are fundamentally discrete. At exactly 40% of your health pool, a 0.405*HP damage input will translate into death occurring now, whereas a 0.395*HP one will not. If block-type events can be taken into consideration in the context of EH-like metrics (i.e. block-capping), one cannot simply ignore them just because they're associated with "tiny" numbers.

In this instance you can, in fact.

Say you have decent gear, but gem for strength, as stated above. Say you have 65k hp buffed up in icc. And that extra 291 block. The guy who gems for stam has roughly 75k hp.

You take a 0.404*hp event which is 26260 damage. Assuming you were at 40% (26000) and blocked 291 more, you've taken 25969 damage and live with 31 hp.

The other guy takes your same 26260 damage, when he's at 40% (since we'll assume, for purposes of this exercise that he took more damage to get to this point than you did, even though that's a dubious proposition). His 40% is 30000. He takes the full 26260 damage event and lives with 3740 hp...3709 more than you, and perhaps that extra aoe pulse that's coming up won't kill him before he gets a heal. Or whatever else might happen.

If he'd actually taken a more realistically accurate amount of damage (say, only 5*291 more than you, for a generous amount):
You'd taken 39000 damage to get to that point, so say he took 40455 damage. That would leave him at 34545 health when he takes the 26260 event and he lives with 8285 hp to spare.

Say it was a 0.405*(your)hp event...then you still die and he lives.

See the problem now?

[veneretio]

(forgive the extravaganza) DID ANYONE IN THIS THREAD (OR ITS COUNTLESS CLONES) PROVIDE A REASONABLE AND COMPLETE MODEL OF TANKING ? WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT.

Caps are silly, but anyway...

Here's what it comes down to: Reliability.

What is currently the most reliable way to survive?

We play in a world where healer mana is basically a non-issue. In such a world, Stamina reins supreme because it's not about how little damage you take but instead how much damage you can survive before you die. (This is perhaps one of the oldest lines in tanking at this point)

Effective Health is promoted as the best path currently because Armor always works when you take physical damage. Stamina always works on all forms of damage. Avoidance doesn't always work. Block Value doesn't always work either.

When we are at our most vulnerable in this game is when everything goes wrong. When everything is going wrong, we aren't avoiding or blocking damage. That's the scenario we guard ourselves against because that's when we stand the greatest chance of dieing.

For that reason, Block Value / Strength are the worst survival stats available to us. If we block, we don't need a bit of extra help because blocking alone is already good enough to keep us out of the worst case scenario. Block Value / Strength are basically "win more" stats. They only kick in when we don't need them.

(Now certainly there are exceptions such as when tanking multiple adds, but I don't believe we're talking about that)

I hope this gives you some insight into the popular consensus and I hope you give it a chance. I'm all for stopping and considering whether the popular choice is the best choice, but sometimes you have to realize that perhaps your initial assumptions that are the foundation of your belief system aren't correct and that's why you aren't drawing the same conclusions as everyone else.

[Akeber]

and... it's not really true that armor scales while str does not, it more the contrary :P

You really can't make statements like this without explaining it with an example and including numbers for people to see what you're talking about. Here is why I beleive your statement is false:

Lets assume I have enough armor to reduce damage taken by 70%. If the hit is 20K, then I end up taking 6K damage, mitigating 14K damage. Now scale that hit up to 40K and I will take 12K damage, but my armor mitigated 28K damage. This is why I say armor scales, the bigger the hit the more damage it removes.

On the other hand, 350 BV will only remove 350 damage, whether the hit is for 2K or 40K. That is why BV doesn't scale with incoming damage, it is always a fixed amount per hit, regardless of the size.

[MellvarTank]

To whom does this standing serve ? The "us versus them" paradigm is horrendously counterproductive.

The only 'us vs them' paradigm is those that have facts and math to back up their arguments, and those that don't.

If you don't have facts/math to back up your argument, then arguing it is counter-productive.