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Thread: Why We Do What We Do (An in depth explanation of EHP and ICC 3.3.3 tanking mechanics)

  1. #281
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    For the record: I have canceled my WoW account and am hanging up my hat on theorycrafting. I will no longer be updating the OPs, so if there's a significant change I guess post it here if you want and then send me a PM and I'll add the link to your post, but that's about as far as I'm gonna go for now.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  2. #282
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    why Agg, Why..... WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US ALLLLLLL

    gg man, glad to have ya, and don't be a stranger around these parts.

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  3. #283
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    Ya, I'll still hang around the Donor forums a lot. I feel like I'm becoming increasingly out of touch with how tanking really works now and will be just way to uninterested to track any further changes to the game.

    Account expires August 23rd... I've been playing for almost 6 years.

    Edit: and I am glad to have been a part of it. I can only hope that I've helped people since that's why I started posting here in the first place, and hopefully I didn't make too many enemies along the way =P.

    Real life is taking over though, and completely focusing on it instead of the game has helped me a lot. I'm doing better at work, did better in school when I went casual, I can only imagine how much it will help now that I've quit for good, and most importantly my health has significantly improved. I felt like I ate a lot yesterday and all I had the entire day was a slim fast, a turkey salsa wrap, a small big of chips, a small side salad with ranch dressing, a chicken sandwhich, some beef jerky, and a small can of corn. All in all that's less than half of the calories I used to intake (and overall about 1000 calories less than my current BMR) in addition to playing an hour and a half of ultimate frisbee in 100+ degree weather. Lifestyle changes really do require significant lifestyle change (tautologies are tautological, right?) and I just can't focus on WoW and make this kind of progress in real life at the same time.

    In addition, I've just started caring about real life and other things a lot more, and have pretty much stopped caring about WoW all together.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 08-06-2010 at 01:52 PM.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    For the record: I have canceled my WoW account and am hanging up my hat on theorycrafting. I will no longer be updating the OPs, so if there's a significant change I guess post it here if you want and then send me a PM and I'll add the link to your post, but that's about as far as I'm gonna go for now.
    Hope RL works out for you.

    I'd probably dabble into the whole theory bit a tad more once Cataclysm stuff is final enough so one can start theorizing it. We'll see.

    On the RL-note I do quite enjoy how Blizzard have removed many of the more obnoxious timesinks from raiding. The people who used to make WoW big have finished or quit school/uni, and they don't have the raw amount of time no more. It's nice, certainly helps me with my diploma thesis.
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  5. #285
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    I can relate to your feeling Agg, I've logged in exactly once for the last two months and frankly don't miss it that much. Mostly that's because right now it's summer and then I'm always AFB (Amazingly Freakin' Busy), but hey there is a whole other world out there and that one doesn't require patches :P
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  6. #286
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    Talking about tankadins.
    I quite agree that the avoidance thing might be a little useless because there really is not a chance to increase it enough to say "ok now i'm good, while i was bad before", but, hell, the EHP is the same exact crap.
    You won't find a healer that can't keep up a tank nowdays, not even for ready money :P. Your math looks nice overall (apart from the standard gaussian, i would have used a clipped one for boss hits, but it's just a ~useless detail), but it's just a speculative thing saying "it's better than avoidance". I would drop 40 stamina every single day for armor, same applies to 10 stamina for 20 strength. The reason is: Since healers can actually keep me up it's useless to have 80kHP in ICC, it's not like i have to solo it. The way of armor and strength reduces the HPS needed from a tank (via less damage per hit and higher block value, which is a gem for us since we are at 70% block rating almost full time), which i have found to be the trouble in some cases when the raid takes constant damages, and if i am in a critical situation, instead of being a "tank" in the sense that i have a lot of "capacity" i can probably trigger some cooldown to manage it. And yes, i'm assuming that if we stay in a critical situation for more than 12 seconds it's the raid's fault (like somebody dancing in the fire instead of moving out), not a tank's fault.
    I mean if i assume that i'll block once every 3 hits with 500 more str than another tank (and this is not absurd) and i gear myself up for having like 35k armor vs 30k i'll have like 5% damage reduction from armor and 250 damage reduction every 3 hits. That's not like i will never take damage but, hell, it can easily mean 1100 less incoming DPS so 1100 less HPS required on bosses that hit hard. Now that's the way, in my humble opinion, to get a good geared tank. If your healers can't keep you up you will die, no matter how many HP you have, if your healers can keep you up you won't really need many hit points, if you can manage your cooldowns in emergency situations.
    Also, having more str on tankadins will get you to more aggro (=start damage immediately) and last but not least more dps, which can easily mean 4000 dps on a single target boss with movements, that might be a significant boost if you get close to the enrage timer.
    Stop talking about EHP and take it's derivative, it'll change your life :P
    Last edited by kibuzo; 08-23-2010 at 03:45 AM.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    Talking about tankadins.

    The way of armor and strength reduces the HPS needed from a tank (via less damage per hit and higher block value, which is a gem for us since we are at 70% block rating almost full time)...
    Huge false assumption in bold. Redoubt does not have a particularly high uptime on single target encounters. If you can find me a log in which Redoubt has a greater than 30% uptime over the course of a boss encounter (or when actively tanking a single target), I will give you a cookie.

  8. #288
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    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6...?s=3569&e=3870 -> buffs gained -> Redoubt, 9 procs, 37.0%.

    37%. Now gimme cookie :P
    Anyway you are right, it's not enough for being considered "almost full time", let's say "almost half time", also considering the encounters in which you have to aoe something, and let's keep in mind that during movements you don't actually even need that proc (when bq flies, during positioning, when you switch tank, when boss casts etc).
    Still, it might me a nerfed ammount, so let's say it's 1050 instead of 1100 dps less, or even 1000, that's not the point, i did not even consider the +30% buff and 10%kings on strenght TBH. The point is that nowdays paladin tanks can only get better by increasing strength. Healt cap exists, other avoidance stats are very low compared to black rating and since it's already high our only mitigation stat, other than armor, can be str.

  9. #289
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    Cookie for you! I sit around 30% uptime from the last few BQL kills I have logged. Other encounters are typically around 10-20%.

    BV is only mitigation if you are block-capped, or unhittable, depending on your preferred term. Because Redoubt is a proc, and because it doesn't have 100% up time, it's still not reliable, always there damage reduction. Blocking is just as RNG as "proper" avoidance, only less effective.

  10. #290
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    i'm not saying that it's gonna save your life in strict terms but it will averagely lower the hps required and make healer's job easier, overall. EHP will just save you when somebody doesn't do its job so you can take an extra hit while healers focus on the others, but it'll make healers have to heal more. Ideally i'd like to have a tank with 9000k stamina and one with more mitigation in SOME encounter, but definitely i will never take 2 tanks that play the "all-stamina game" in a raid, never.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumines View Post
    BV is only mitigation if you are block-capped, or unhittable, depending on your preferred term. Because Redoubt is a proc, and because it doesn't have 100% up time, it's still not reliable, always there damage reduction. Blocking is just as RNG as "proper" avoidance, only less effective.
    Wouldn't RNG Mitigation be a better term for it... It is mitigation, it just isn't mitigation you can count on...
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  12. #292
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    i'm not saying that it's gonna save your life in strict terms but it will averagely lower the hps required and make healer's job easier, overall. EHP will just save you when somebody doesn't do its job so you can take an extra hit while healers focus on the others, but it'll make healers have to heal more. Ideally i'd like to have a tank with 9000k stamina and one with more mitigation in SOME encounter, but definitely i will never take 2 tanks that play the "all-stamina game" in a raid, never.


    EH is armor and stamina, not just stamina. I think you misread the OPs.
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  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    i'm not saying that it's gonna save your life in strict terms but it will averagely lower the hps required and make healer's job easier, overall. EHP will just save you when somebody doesn't do its job so you can take an extra hit while healers focus on the others, but it'll make healers have to heal more. Ideally i'd like to have a tank with 9000k stamina and one with more mitigation in SOME encounter, but definitely i will never take 2 tanks that play the "all-stamina game" in a raid, never.
    Yeah, stop assuming EHP = stamina, and it's not just armor, its RESISTANCES too. You can have capped armor at 50k, it won't do squat if you are tanking Keleseth on 10 man, and for things like LDW and Sindy, there's still a fair amount of magic damage.

    Gear for the fight, and that means gearing for EHP since Avoidance has been proven to be lacking (as illustrated by this thread). That is always the rule of thumb. If that means strapping on stamina and resistances for some fights , or stamina and armor for the rest, so be it.

  14. #294
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    No, i read correctly. But if you strictly choose to boost your EHP you will prefer 4% more hit points instead of 4% less damage. Not only, you will be forced to choose even less hits against higher mitigation from armor because it scales with raid buffs more efficently. The definitive answer, as always is "it depends" but the whole article focuses on the fact that "you will have more hit points if..." and that's what i'm against, you don't need huge hit points, you need the raid to survive. And the raid survives easily if you don't require HUGE healings. Frost res at sindragosa should not be counted as EHP, does anyone really care if i can take like 5 hits instead of 6? who is the healer that lets you take 6 hits in a row without healing you? that concept is just absourd and it's spreading around like a plague :P

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    who is the healer that lets you take 6 hits in a row without healing you?
    Yes and the point is that you are getting constantly healed no matter the kind of damage you take, because mana is largely not an issue for healer. This means that even if you avoided 4% more of those hits, you'd still have recieved heals as though you took the hit. Furthermore if you geared for avoidance you are less likely to survive the worst case scenarios such as your holy paladins not being able to heal. In this case chosing to gear for a chance to not die (avoidance) is largely not chosen over gearing to have that effect health that is always there when you need it.

    Resistance is as much a part of effective health as armor. Think of armor as the physical damage only component and resistance as the magic damage only component (or the armor of magic damage). Resistances work slightly differently with a stepping stone like mechanic but it is definitely a factor in effective health. The real arguement is whether losing effective health from some pieces is worth gaining the effective health via resistance on other pieces.

    And YES we care about taking 6 hits instead of 5 when your holy paladins are forced to not heal for an amount of time. It is more like taking 3 hits instead of 2 though (interacting with things like hots and other healer's direct healing).

  16. #296
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    Ok i see that we are stick to positions, so it's a no-go. I'm not going to reply with the very same arguments i posted before only to see others doing the same, i was hoping in a better discussion to be honest, but that will have to do it :P

    Only think before getting healers that keep healing you even if you are full health :P

  17. #297
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    I think you need to read deeper, especially the "total EHP" link by theckhd that I link in section 1, as far as the resistance stuff goes.

    As far as how many hits you can take, on fights like TLK and Sindragosa it's more like taking 2-3 hits, not 5 or 6, I just use a hit count that high in section 6 to show that even when the hit string is that long, avoidance in ICC is so low that it's really hard to get it up to levels that would really make a difference (which is around 70% or so). You would have to sacrifice so much EHP (which is armor+stam for physical damage and resistance+stam for magic damage) that instead of beign like 3-4 or 5-6 hits it definite becomes 2-3 hits and even at 70%+ avoidance that has a really high probability of happen.

    Before I quit I did a lot of healing, and I can say that healers are raid healing a lot, and not always dropping heals on tanks, but tanks with more hit points give us a much bigger gap to heal them when they do need it. What happens with avoidance tanks is that they're completely fine and easy healed, and then all of the sudden they just drop, full to dead in seemingly no time. 4 hits in 8 seconds is a surprisingly short time when there's a ton of raid damage going around. The extra 2 seconds a 5th hit can provide is another global cooldown, another heal, and it DOES make a difference. EHP tanks are the easiest to heal, people that gear/gem/enchant for avoidance die, period.

    I mean... idk what else to say that hasn't already been said. A lot of us get exasperated because we've been arguing/debating this to DEATH. That was the entire reason I wrote this thread, to put more teeth to the EHP argument.

    Now... if you want to provide some math or other evidence that we're incorrect, then I welcome it, but random suppositions without any proof just kinda makes you look like a troll if you can't back it up.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    Ok i see that we are stick to positions, so it's a no-go. I'm not going to reply with the very same arguments i posted before only to see others doing the same, i was hoping in a better discussion to be honest, but that will have to do it
    You're calling it a no-go because people tend to believe the analysis with math and theory, as opposed to your wall of supposition and anecdote? Apparently you don't have all that much conviction to your beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Now... if you want to provide some math or other evidence that we're incorrect, then I welcome it, but random suppositions without any proof just kinda makes you look like a troll if you can't back it up.
    Exactly so. You are not the first, nor will you be the last, to come in and say you don't think that this is right. It's literally been happening for years now:

    Quote Originally Posted by TankSpot Site Rules
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    We're still waiting for someone, anyone, to come and make a reasoned argument with decent analysis rather than a wall of anecdotal text. It's never happened (now think about what that means for the argument from the get-go.)

    Nobody is going to take you seriously for putting out a pile of text telling us why you "think" we're wrong, because we've been getting that for years. Very seriously, I invite you to be the first one to make the effort and present that argument in math and theory. There are a lot of people here who would absolutely love to read and debate that analysis.
    Last edited by Satrina; 08-24-2010 at 07:13 AM.
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  19. #299
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    From my understanding, kibuzo thinks we're "overlooking" armor when talking about EHP, he is very mistaken in this regard. Most tankspotters will recommend the Glyph of Indomitability over say brewfest trinkets because we all know that armor goes hand in hand with stamina to increase EHP.

    Kibuzo, armor is a big part of EHP, and the mitigation it provides on fights where the tank takes mostly physical damage is well known to Agg and the tankspot community, you're not telling us anything we don't already know. We all take gear with bonus armor over gear with extra avoidance stats, which is really the only place (besides trinkets) where you can "choose" armor over stamina. Now when it comes to gemming, there is no choice, you can't gem armor so you gem stamina. You could gem agility as it does add to armor, but the amount of armor gained pales in comparison to the gains from gemming stamina.

    Part of the problem is that "new people" (even those who claim to have been reading here for a "long time") come here and misunderstand terms that many tankspotters take for granted. Kibuzo is taking the term EHP to mean stamina. This is not what it means at all.

    As for your thoughts on strenght, you don't gem strength, even as a shield class, because blocking is RNG, the same way that avoidance is. Even with holy shield and redoubt, unblocked hits will happen. Sure you "could" block x number of hits, but you could just as easily hit a streak where you block nothing while one of your healers is in an ice block, the other has unchained magic, another healer is running because he's the next iceblock target and in two seconds Sindy is going to suck everyone in for a blistering cold requiring the whole raid to run. That's a long time with a less than optimal stream of heals, and a mix of magic damage thrown in for good measure. Stamina will benefit you here more than an extra few hundred BV, because that's all your going to get even if you agressively gem strength.

    More EHP is always better for the next progression encounter. Any tank that says it's "useless" for a tank to have 80K hp in ICC needs to go shake hands with heroic LK (even on ten man) and ask him nicely to hit you with a soul reaper. After that, come back here and tell me that 80K health is a waste.

    That being said, everything is about persective. Kibuzo, what bosses is your raid currently having trouble with in ICC (10 or 25)? I ask this not to say "if you're not progressed X far your opinion doesn't matter", but instead to figure out what your perspective is on icecrown raiding. What bosses are giving your raid trouble and whether they are normal or hard mode will have a large impact on how "necessary" gearing for EHP is.

  20. #300
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    Didn't see this post by the OP before.

    Quote Originally Posted by kibuzo View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6...?s=3569&e=3870 -> buffs gained -> Redoubt, 9 procs, 37.0%.
    37%. Now gimme cookie :P
    Anyway you are right, it's not enough for being considered "almost full time", let's say "almost half time", also considering the encounters in which you have to aoe something, and let's keep in mind that during movements you don't actually even need that proc (when bq flies, during positioning, when you switch tank, when boss casts etc).
    Still, it might me a nerfed ammount, so let's say it's 1050 instead of 1100 dps less, or even 1000, that's not the point, i did not even consider the +30% buff and 10%kings on strenght TBH. The point is that nowdays paladin tanks can only get better by increasing strength. Healt cap exists, other avoidance stats are very low compared to black rating and since it's already high our only mitigation stat, other than armor, can be str.
    Okay, you threw out some numbers/"facts" here that are massively inflated or just plain wrong.

    First of all let's just look at BV on its own. You get 1/2 of your strength as BV. We're going to ignore the strength on your gear because its going to be there whether you gem for stam or str. In my gear I've got 21 gem slots not including my meta. I'm not a BS though, so I'll throw in an extra couple just to make your "strenght is good for mitigation" argument look as good as possible. So 23 sockets, all gemmed with +20 str gems gives me a total of 460 strength, now increase that by 15% from talents to 529, and another 10% from kings brings it up to 582. The 30% ICC buff applies to health and damage done, it doesn't do anything to your base stats, and has zero effect on strength. So you're still at 582 extra str in or out of ICC, which works out to 291 BV. Being extremely generous (i'm lying it's to make the math easier) I'm even going to assume a 50% uptime on redoubt (inc BV by 30%). 30% of 291 BV is 87.3, at 50% of the time averages to 43.65 BV, 44 BV for easy numbers. All added up that's 335 BV from gemming 100% strength.

    Bosses' swing timers can vary alot. Some are fairly slow at 2.3 seconds and some can get as low as 1.1 seconds. Even at a 1 second swing timer and assuming you block 100% of hits, you're only removing about 335 damage from each swing, arriving every second, so 335 DPS, or 335 HPS that your healers don't have to put out. That's far less than a renew from a priest, a rejuv from a druid, or even a FoL hot from a holy pally.

    You've sacrificed 23 stam gems, which is 690 stamina or 6900 health, before kings, talents, and the 30% ICC buff, which will all push that total health you've lost well over 10K, all for the sake of saving your healers a best case scenario of 335 HPS, which will be far less in reality.

    No, strength is a terrible form of mitigation.

    I anyone sees any problems with my numbers, please correct me.
    Last edited by Akeber; 08-24-2010 at 09:19 AM. Reason: spelling/formatting

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