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Thread: The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Raid French Fries

  1. #1
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    The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Raid French Fries




  2. #2
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    nice analogy with burger king. Personally having led 25 mans (and 40 mans) getting pretty burned out in the process, I am glad that 10 man is becoming a "viable" option to raid, and will not miss the stress of having to cancel a raid at the last minute with 23 in the raid because 2 healers didn't turn up.


    oh, and I like the shirt.

  3. #3
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    I'm a raidleader in a small Danish-only guild. Some would call us causal as we only raid twice a week (but we make liberal use of the extend raid-lock option for our progression runs)
    I love what's in store here: Being a danish-only guild on a low-pop server does pose quite a challenge in getting 10 danish players together that are able and willing to raid - and getting 25 players is downright impossible.

    I welcome the change that we now will be able to raid 10 man without feeling - as Lore put it - "second-best" or feeling penalized on the loot side.

    And if we need to gear people fast, we can just use our 10-12 raiders to seed a 25 pug. All in all, this is what I call win-win
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-03-2010 at 05:23 AM.
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
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  4. #4

    Harder 10's?

    I have trouble seeing how Blizz is going to balance the 10's and 25's being " Very similar to one another in difficulty". The way I see it is that 25's simply add health and adds, ice tombs, etc and occasionally a new ability that is more of a nuisance simply because you have more people in raid.

    So the way I see it either 10's become harder and people get put off by the lack of progress, or they dumb down 25's and it becomes a loot pinata.

    I am not discounting the fact that some, maybe many, people will say to hell with 25's because "I hate that frikin hunter who wipes the raid every night and this way I will never have to deal with him again."

  5. #5
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    Something else to consider that is an extension of the extra loot dropping in 25s is that even if exactly the same amount of loot dropped per player in 10s and 25s there would still be an advantage to being in 25s due to the reduced variance in the drops. I should probably explain that with an example.

    10 man raid downs a boss and 2 items drop. There is no rogue playing in this raid so that fast offhand dagger is useful to no one at all. 50% of the loot gets sharded.

    25 man raid downs a boss and 5 items drop. There is no rogue playing in this raid (already less likely due to increased numbers but still possible). 20% of loot is sharded.

    25 man raid downs a boss and 5 items drop. There is a rogue playing so no loot is lost.

    Now admittedly you can end up with more competition for an item but compared to how often it will drop this is actually more likely to balance out in 25s than in 10s. In essence, upping the numbers on both sides of the equation makes it less likely that you'll end up losing out to unlucky streaks of drops.

    So in that sense, the loot is already favouring 25s. Upping the drops from 5 to 6 (or however high they go) would only further re-inforce that. Bearing that in mind though I wouldn't be surprised to see the number that Blizzard chooses be lower than some people seem to want.

    Another angle they could explore would be adding in addition quality of life items such as slightly larger bags or prestige mounts and the like to 25s as a further incentive without disrupting their progression balance at all.

  6. #6
    Whao, wait a sec ... i got a huge problem with this vid. Everyone knows McDonalds French Fries are WAY better then Burger King!!! LF4M to go and get free French Fries.

    As for the Cataclysm Raiding stuff, i personally think its wonderful. Another importing thing to add is that they are thinking/adding the option that you can run either or. So, if you like my guild where maybe Tuesday we have enought for the 25 man but say Wed,Thurs,Friday we only have enough for the 10 man you can actually run both on the same lockout. I think this is great because if you got the ppl then great lets go ... if you don't have the ppl great lets still go.

    As for the casuals not being "up" for the higher difficulty of the new 10 mans. I personally think that is fine. When a new teir comes out, they will just grab all the teir 11 stuff with badges/points they will earn and be able to do it. Personally if it turns out this way ... i'd be ok being 1 teir behind the better skill/hardcore players.

    idk .. just my thoughts

  7. #7
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    If Blizz have some brains, which I think they do, this is how I see this playing out:

    10man difficulty is currently tuned to the 10man gear level, ie 10man ICC is tuned for people with 10man ToC gear. So as soon as a new tier dungeon was released, some people already outgeared it (ToC25 raiders), and therefore, it was easier than the 25man version.

    New 10man difficulties will be tuned up about the same amount as the gear will go up. So for 25man raiders to do a 10man run, yes it will be more difficult, but for a 10man guild, in 10man gear the difficulty probably won't (and shouldn't) change too much, because the gear from the previous tier will be that little bit better to counter the increased difficulty.

    For the 25man raids, they will still be popular because they will be dropping 6-7 items per boss or maybe even more. Why 6-7? 10man currently drops items at a rate of 2:10 25s will be at a higher loot:raider ratio, a 2:10 ratio for 25 people is 5 items, Blizzard said it will be more loot per person than 10mans, but I doubt it will be by a huge margin.

    Overall I think this is a good change, will mean people don't have to farm both levels of the instances, and to be honest, 4 versions of every encounter to run each week is just stupid.

  8. #8
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    I'd hate to burst Lore's or anyone else's bubble, but I'm tired of seeing the common misconception about 10 man raids repeated over and over again.

    While elaborating how easy 10 man encounters are, you seem to forget about the fact you simply run through an instance almost a whole tier behind (13 ilvls while 19 can be considered tier). You overgear the encounters balanced around having much lower quality of gear and then think "you're so much better at the game" than people raiding 10 mans. While it is correct to assume most people focused only on 10 mans are casual guilds raiding 1-2 times a week or spontaneously, there are plenty of serious strict 10 man guilds hurt by those neglectful, arrogant statements. Guilds that, like mine, are on par with or ahead of many 25 man guilds in 10 man hard mode progress. It annoys me that just because I prefer 10 man raids and don't give a crap about loot, I'm being looked down upon as a worse player and not taken seriously.

    I'd like to know your opinion about how difficult the 10 man hard modes are (or normal LK) if I took away the 25 man weapons, trinkets, procs, legendaries and generally lowered the quality of rest of your gear by 13 ivls. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to just take 9 other people and "plow" through 10 man mode whenever you like. Try doing Herald of the Titans to properly assess the difficulty of 10 man Algalon (yes, I know a large amount of people don't have that because they cba to gather the appropriate gear, but for my point's sake it's ok).

    It's funny how many 25 man raiders don't see that silliness - overgearing the content and then frowning that it's easy.

    The way I see it, encounter difficulty consists of 2 things:
    1. Mechanics - abilities the raid has to counter, situations to handle, etc.
    2. Numbers - how much dps is needed, how hard stuff hits, etc.

    If you're running a 10 man instance in 25 man gear you completely ignore part 2 as numbers are balanced around people in 10 man gear (well, sometimes encounters in 10 man mode are overtuned and balanced around 25 man gear but that's another story). Mechanics are usually very similar (at least in hard modes, like mind control of Lady Deathwhisper) and depending on design and number of people, can be more difficult to handle in either mode.

    The point I'm trying to make is that with proper balance between the two modes and without the gear advantage allowing one of the groups to trivialize 50% of the content, it should be ok. The general "10 man raid difficulty" (at least in hard modes) doesn't have to be brought up, the removal of 25 man gear advantage will probably be enough to make the experience similar in both modes and bring 25 man raiders down to earth in their perception of how oh-so-skillful they are. WotLK showed that 10 man raiding CAN be difficult - encounters like the LK, some Ulduar hard modes, Sarth 3D (which was much harder in 10 man mode), etc. were pretty hard even in 25 man gear.

    25 man raiding won't die - most likely apart from being able to gear up faster and minimizing loot RNG, there will still be additional awards like titles or mounts in 25 man modes.

    The Cataclysm changes sound very good and hopefully they will finally allow for fair competition between 25 man and 10 man guilds. Also, as soon as people abandon their "WotLK mindset", they will no longer feel forced to raid in ways they didn't find fun and become truly free in their choice to enjoy what they like best - either 10 or 25 mans.


    -------
    Please don't take anything I said offensively (although it may sound harsh). It's all coming from a person that raided 40 mans in vanilla, 25 mans in TBC and switched to 10 mans in WotLK thinking it would be a viable alternative to 25 mans. That wasn't the case and as naive as I am, I have high hopes for Cataclysm in that regard, that's all!
    Last edited by miv; 05-03-2010 at 06:48 AM.
    We like for classes and specs to have themes. (...) Part of the warrior kit is mobility

  9. #9
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    While your analogy makes a lot of sense I think the root of the problem lies in one of the very likely reasons for the changes to raiding to occur at all, and that is:
    "10-man raiders feel like they've being treated like second class players compared to 25-man raiders"
    If (and only If) this is the primary reason behind these changes then I'm not sure Blizzard can actually fix the problem. Either:
    1. 25-man raids have some extra benefit (whether that's better loot, more loot, or "A Pony") and 10-man raiders still feel like they're being treated like second class players.
    Or
    2. 25-man do not have some extra benefit (whatever it could've been) in which case everyone will do 10-mans because they're exactly the same as 25-mans with less hassle (mainly in organization).

    To use your analogy this would be:
    1. The 5 guys can go in together and all get large fries at the price of a medium fries, but then the 1 guy by himself complains that this is unfair on him just because he's "1 guy" and "his friends are out of town at the moment".
    2. Medium fries now have as many in them as Large fries. Nobody buys Large fries anymore.

    As much as Blizzard's heart may be in the right place I'm not sure the "sweet spot" actually exists.
    Last edited by TobiasX; 05-03-2010 at 06:47 AM.

  10. #10
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    I think these changes will work out for the better as long three things happen to keep people happy. Number one, they give us more raids to do. Having just ICC 10 and 25 at this point is a main contributor to people getting burned out on the game. Having more sanctums, new Ony's and EoE would make it so people dont mind locking themselves to a 10 rather then a 25 and would provide a much needed change of pace.
    Second if they are going to do this single lock out and not give us a wider variety of raids then are they going to reduce the cost of emblem gear, keep it the same or get rid of it completely? Lastly I feel that there should be some reward that you get for bringing 25 people together to clear a raid other then more loot. Keeping it so that you can only get the highest Tier gear would be one such reward, or extra titles, mounts, emblems even something to keep the 25 raiders wanting to do 25's. As lore said its going to be interesting to see but im not so sure that "ill get gear faster" will be enough to keep people wanting to do 25's because lets face it its much easier to coordinate 10 people then 25, just as 25 is easier than 40 was so if we get the same gear just not as fast and the same number of emblems then why try to coordinate 25 people when you can take 10?
    Last edited by Bakayaru; 05-03-2010 at 07:15 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TobiasX View Post
    To use your analogy this would be:
    1. The 5 guys can go in together and all get large fries at the price of a medium fries, but then the 1 guy by himself complains that this is unfair on him just because he's "1 guy" and "his friends are out of town at the moment".
    2. Medium fries now have as many in them as Large fries. Nobody buys Large fries anymore.
    Not quite.

    The way it is now with 10 mans vs 25 mans in terms of loot is more like: "Special offer for French Fries: Gather 5 friends and instead of a medium portion of cold, squishy fries, get a small portion of hot extra crispy fries with an extra delicious french fries sauce" (To boot: Better fries). And here is the real cause for complaint: when you are more people, you get fries of better quality, even if there are fewer of them. Hell, when you have the people gathered you can always just buy another portion.

    So that's what it's coming down to: the difference in quality is being removed so all get hot and crispy fries with delicious sauce and the quantity is being shifted so those that do gather the extra people get a little bit more. Such "Quantity discount" special offers are being done already in the real world and noone is complaining about it, so I hardly see why that should be the case in WOW - or then again, maybe I do, but that's another story
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-03-2010 at 07:47 AM.
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  12. #12
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    The sweet spot won't exist because fine tuning 10mans is virtually impossible without class homogenisation. Everybody has raided 10mans and everybody knows the difference that class balance and optimisation plays. Assuming a 5dps setup the difference between a raid stacked with casters and spell dps buffs and a raid with a 2-3 split is really quite large. By optimising the classes and buffs you squeeze into the 10man you can have people running at almost their full potential, whereas a physical / caster split is certain to be missing some key buffs and a lot of potential. If you balance the dps requirements for a mixed setup then a hand-picked setup will find it much easier and if it's balanced for an ideal raid setup then a mixed setup will have a struggle. The only way they can alleviate this is by giving more classes more raid buffs and making the classes even more similar. I would expect them to balance it for the casuals to pickup 10 random people and have a chance so any buff optimising raid will 'probably' still find 10s an easier environment.

    25mans on the other hand usually have all the buffs covered, or pretty much all of them, so tuning requirements and dps races is a much easier job. For this reason they can make the 25s harder overall as they aren't going to balance it for sub-optimal setups. 25 mans are also notoriously harder to organise and will nearly always be harder than 10s due to spacing issues. I think 25mans will still maintain a level of prestige over the 10s because I think the 25s (especially HMs) should still be more challenging. I'm wondering what they are going to do with legendaries come Cataclysm now though as the idea of legendaries for 10mans does seem a little un-legendary.

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    Your shirts are fabulous. Don't listen to the block heads.

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    Hi there, Will 25m raids be still, like now those who show which is the best raiding guild. Or 10m raids will show that also.
    Ok it's a bit fuzzy so to make it clear

    -Will 10m raiding guild with really tight roaster born in Cataclysm and take more importance in the PvE than now with all these changes?

    Ps ; Sorry for my bad english (french)

  15. #15
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    Blizz is also going to have to be careful in their attempt to keep people in 25-man raids they don't make it so easy to get gear everyone gears up and is bored even further out from new raids opening up. Regardless of how difficult the encounters are if it only takes a month for nearly every person in your 25-man to have their full set of gear folks will lose interest really quickly.

  16. #16
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    Did Blizzard really said that the difficulty of the 10 Man Raid will go up?

    Because all I'm aware off is that they said that they try to bring the difficulty of the two raiding formats closer together. Which means for me that the difficulty of the 25 player raids will be closer to the 10 player and not the other way round.

    In my opinion the diversity between the two raiding formats is the amount of people you have to manage, the smaller space per player and that allmost every buff, debuff and every class/specc is available in the raid in the 25 player version resulting in a much tighter and intensive bossbattle and by no means this can be accomlished in the 10 player version.

    For the general difficulty level of 10 player raids I have to say that is really quite a bit less difficult.
    I have a allmost 10 man raid only char with a allmost 10 man raidgroup (I did ICC 25 2 times and got one item out of it and in this raidgroup we have perhapes 2-3 player who do 25 man raids).
    There are few Bosses in the 10 player version that are more difficult that their 25 player counterparts (namely Sartharion with 3 drakes and Dreamwalker) but most of the Bosses are not.

    Whould you like a few examples.

    Saurfang heroic: in the 10 man version you have 2 to 3 marks do deal with for 2-3 healer in the 25 man version we've got 7 for 6 healer
    Lichking: in the 10 man version you have a lot more space for the defile hence more room for failing. And you got only one Valkyrie which can go in only one possible direction in the 25 man version you got 3 of them an every one of them can go in a different direction but shouldn't.
    Deathwisper: 3 player who got mindcontrolled can do a ton more trouble when they are allowed to act freely instead of one.

    And so on and so on.

    Hm well my major question is kind of overshadowed by my explanations so......

    ....did Blizzard really said that the difficulty of the 10 Man Raid will go up?

    Because....
    Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?
    Es ist der Kodo mit seinem Rind.

  17. #17
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    I love how cider says "I got ppl coming up to me and saying..." I get this hilarious image of him walking out of the grocery and getting mobbed by tankspotters going "Cider! Cider! what do you think of the new warrior changes?!" "Cider! Cider! What french fries do you prefer when raiding?!" etc etc.

    Anyways another great episode, thanks for you thoughts! i personally didn't even notice the "more loot per player" and just saw "more loot" so thanks for pointing that out
    Winter is coming

  18. #18
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    Happy half-year anniversary, Lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  19. #19
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    I have to bring up a point about your last bit in the weekly about tuning difficulties.

    Naxx 10, as easy as it was across the board if you recall, was harder on 10-man in straight heroic gear than 25-man was with similar gearing. The tuning can be done. They just have to take the specific nature of 10's into account, and how they differ from 25's, when they do.

    Personally, I think it's going to be interesting to watch the reactions of people who are used to overgearing 10's from an entire expansion with a 13 ilvl advantage on average in the first tier of cataclysm if Blizzard can get the tuning right.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollin View Post
    I have to bring up a point about your last bit in the weekly about tuning difficulties.

    Naxx 10, as easy as it was across the board if you recall, was harder on 10-man in straight heroic gear than 25-man was with similar gearing. The tuning can be done. They just have to take the specific nature of 10's into account, and how they differ from 25's, when they do.

    Personally, I think it's going to be interesting to watch the reactions of people who are used to overgearing 10's from an entire expansion with a 13 ilvl advantage on average in the first tier of cataclysm if Blizzard can get the tuning right.
    Well in my opinion Naxx10 was, with the exclusion of Sapphiron, less difficult then Naxx25 even with a group which had only itemlevel 200 gear (again, done that with a twink on a random run).
    Especially Thaddius and Kel'thuzad.
    Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?
    Es ist der Kodo mit seinem Rind.

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