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Thread: Cataclysm raid changes announced.

  1. #1
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    Cataclysm raid changes announced.

    We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

    The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

    We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

    Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
    • 10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
    • 10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

    We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

    We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

    We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

    In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

    We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

    We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
    What am I gonna do? clear the 10man modes in 2 hours and call it a week? blizzard is milking WoW for all it's worth before SC2/D3/XXXnew mmo takes over.

  2. #2
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    Yeah.... shoutbox says: Terrible idea. But please people, let's discuss it creatively instead of /ragequit.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  3. #3
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    Yay for this! An excellent change to prevent some of the iLvl issues. Related old discussion here.

    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt
    What am I gonna do? clear the 10man modes in 2 hours and call it a week?
    If normal mode is too easy, why are you not running hard mode?

  4. #4
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    This. Is. Awesome.

    you can 100% tell though that they know 25 man raiding is being held up on a crutch. The only reason a majority of people 25 man raid is for the better loot. Now that the better loot will be available from 10's ... they have to put something in to make 25's worth doing.. so the extra amount of badges, loot, gold.

    to me that is them admitting that people like 10's more and we need to dress this ugly baby (25 mans) up so someone will hug it still.

    yay to no reason to do 25's anymore.

  5. #5
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    Shrug, 10 mans will always be easier than 25s unless they specifically tune 25 mans lower for a very simple reason ... less people to screw something up. Also it will always be easier to get 10 people together or to run 2 10s than it is to do a single 25. That being said, I personally have always enjoyed the larger raids and in fact really still miss the epic feel of the old 40 mans. 10 mans almost don't even feel like raiding.

  6. #6
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    I dislike. Occasionally, because Blizzard likes to drop my connection at inconvenient times, I have been locked out of a 10 man weekly but still saved the weekly by finding a 25 man to go to. This effectively ends this escape route.

  7. #7
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    Does this mean legendaries will be split equally now? How about items like primordial saronite or runed orbs?

    I assume they would be equally likely to drop in either mode, otherwise there will still be a difference between the two.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frazzle View Post
    Does this mean legendaries will be split equally now? How about items like primordial saronite or runed orbs?

    I assume they would be equally likely to drop in either mode, otherwise there will still be a difference between the two.
    They might give them a little more drop chance in 25-mans. Sort of like the 264 BoEs that drop in ICC now. They can drop in 10, but you see them more out of 25.

    I like the changes. I'm guessing that under all of this, it's a business decision. Blizzard can see from their logs the popularity of 10-man vs 25-man raiding, and they'll serve the bigger amount of people with their decisions. It's how it works.

    One of the things that I'll like most about this? No more 25-man raiders running both locks every week, getting loot/badges twice as fast, as well as better gear, and then facerolling 10-mans while overgeared, and screaming '10-man is faceroll!'

  9. #9
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    I'm so excited about these changes. Not having to farm 10 man or worry about it at all is perfect. I don't want to have to raid 4-5 nights a week to be competitive. <3 BC style raiding.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warwench View Post
    This. Is. Awesome.

    you can 100% tell though that they know 25 man raiding is being held up on a crutch.
    I disagree. TERRIBLE idea. Why not just remove 25man raids from the game........

    This IS going to destroy many 25man guilds. People will want to cut off some of the dead weight and keep their strongest members. Why rely on 24 other ppl to show up and play smart when you can get by only relying on 9?

    Right now it looks like the only reason to ever do a 25man raid is to get your badge gear faster. Maybe to gear your tanks faster, since it's more loot per boss but I assume the same # of tanks (unless that changes too).
    Last edited by Dragaan; 04-26-2010 at 10:45 AM.

  11. #11
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    I like the change personally, because it fits how I like to play. Before everyone judges 10 man content as faceroll, how many of those complaining have ever gone into Ulduar10 in i200 lvl only gear, or ICC10 in i232 only gear. The content seemed easy, because it wasn't scaled for the higher gear levels 25 man raiders entered it with. Heroic LK10 has not been steamrolled by strict 10 man guilds, so it is very possible to tune 10 man raids to be a challenge. As for difficulty of 10 vs. 25, they present different challenges. Sure the extra people make extra aspects of the fight more difficult, but one death in 10 man often means a wipe and it is harder hiding bad players in 10 man content when you are in 10 man only gear.

    As for loot distribution, they will likely have larger loot tables for 10 man to account for the extra loot needed for 25 man. This will actually decrease the chance that a specific item will drop for players in 10 man and due to the fact that many classes won't be represented in 10 man groups will lead to a lot of sharding, further decreasing your gearing speed. 25 man raiding will, for this reason, be much faster for gearing up and therefore, still desirable to people wanting to get into the best gear possible as quickly as possible.

    Finally, combining the lockouts is a great idea. Was it hard to find things to do pre Wrath, when there weren't multiple lockouts for each raid? In my opinion it was a bad idea to ever have multiple lockouts for the 'same' raids.

  12. #12
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    If there was a "Like" button like Facebook has, I would not be pressing this at all.

    This really is a rather nice slap in the face to the top 100 25 man guilds to be honest. This is going to pretty much state 'Well...we'll give you more shineys to do 25 man!'...why bother? Why have the hassle of 25 other people when you can get the same gear, albeit at a slower pace, in 10 man, where you can simply get ten strong people together and destroy th einstance.

    Furthermore they wanna put a lock on the instance so if you DO 10 man, you are shafted for 25 man? I understand the idea of dropping the availability of badges but this is really not the way to go honestly. As it stands now, going into an instance with 25 people is not going to be worth much more than a headache.

    Well, kudos to those who keep on trucking this one but this put the final nail in the coffin for me. A good luck to the rest of you!

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  13. #13
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    Honestly, this is what people don't seem to get. A slap in the face to 2,500 players out of millions is not a bad business decision. WoW is first and foremost a business and good businesses make their product accessible and desirable to as many people as possible. The few can cry and rage all they want, which I am sure there will be a lot of going on, but we haven't seen how the final product will be presented yet. If you want to quit the game based on a blue post without actually seeing how the product plays, I am sure Blizzard is not too concerned with that attitude.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mwawka View Post
    Honestly, this is what people don't seem to get. A slap in the face to 2,500 players out of millions is not a bad business decision. WoW is first and foremost a business and good businesses make their product accessible and desirable to as many people as possible. The few can cry and rage all they want, which I am sure there will be a lot of going on, but we haven't seen how the final product will be presented yet. If you want to quit the game based on a blue post without actually seeing how the product plays, I am sure Blizzard is not too concerned with that attitude.
    In no way am I complaining about how they're doing their business. I was doing a university treck towards Business law so I know the ins and outs of how a business could potentially maximize it's profits as I had to take courses for that. What i'm stating is that it's simply not a direction I agree with at all and as a player, I do not like that direction. Yes, it's a solid move on Blizzard's part to help out the millions who do play the game more of a casual level, but as a person who prefers to have a differential between the regular and the elite, I am no longer seeing that distinguishable factor. In fact, I am seeing only homogenization on the sole purpose to make everyone happy. Everyone will have the gear at some point, whether you're in 10 man or in 25 man. The only difference will be time; some people will get gear faster running 25 man. Then it becomes a question of quantity versus quality: is it worth doing the 25 man for the quantity and gear being the ultimate goal, or is the quality and the enjoyability of the game better to do 10 man and suffer slower gearing?

    The fact that you're stating I'm 'raging' about a change is at best insulting. I'm stating an opinion just like anyone else here is, whether they like it or back. Furthermore, I've stopped playing for a while now and it's because as a whole, I do not agree with the direction of the game. However having spent five years playing this game, I do keep myself informed and I try to keep up with the information that the game is going. It's like an ex girlfriend: In a way you wanna cut yourself off but if she was your first, you still want to know a few things and make sure she's alright.

    It's a weird relationship between games and relationships. There's a ...I dunno, bond, that is made when you play a game that long. Something of a love/hate relationship. I'm in my hating stage.

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  15. #15
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    Well for me I am not so sure I like the 10/25 sharing a lock out. I guess this just mean that will we play alts more than we already do if we want to have a raid on a off night.

    Loot - I in no way shape or form think that the gear level rewards should be the same. Larger groups are always more difficult to arrange, lead and execute a kill. You deserve a bone for that pain, no matter how tiny it is. LOL =]

    My biggest fear is that 10s will end up even easier than they are now. I really enjoy 10 man raiding, less people, you can BS more and have fun chatting. 25s there are just too many people to really do much of that without it becoming a pita. I just want the difficulty put back in boss fights. Make them challenging, which means fun as far as I'm concerned.

  16. #16
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    I see this pushing 10 man guilds into more serious raiding, actually. 25s could go the way of PUGs only while the clearing of content would belong to the 10man guilds.

  17. #17
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    If you can understand why a successful business with 100 employees will generally have less profits than a successful business with 250 employees, then you can understand why this move is a step in the wrong direction. The difficulty of organizing, developing strategy, and monitoring 25 persons should offer higher rewards than doing the same with 10. Blizzard would be better suited to remove two-tier raiding entirely; that way encounters could be tuned perfectly to one set number of raiders (be that 10, 15, or 20).

    EDIT: Also, if you can understand why giving everyone BMWs would remove the car's desirability, then you can understand how making stronger rewards more accessible will only increase dissatisfaction.
    Last edited by Spiritus; 04-26-2010 at 11:23 AM.



  18. #18
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    This change favors smaller guilds with a one guild to one raid ratio. The more raids your organization supports with a larger member base the less support you have out of that member base where today your 25 man raids can draw subs from 10 man raids in the same organization. A raiding alliance such as the one I participate in with currently two 25 man Icecrown raids and seven 10 man Icecrown raids would suffer from the change because people are now forced to choose one raid size and commit to it. Even though the member base of the guild or raiding organization is larger, those that commit to a 10 man raid are unavailable to support a 25 man raid if they need a substitute. That is the biggest issue with the shared lockout.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  19. #19
    Lol. I love the relationship analogy Krenian.

    I'm a casual player, yet I often get the chance to get into both a 10 and a 25 in the same week and I like that. I like raiding, not so much the other stuff though. To me this seems like I'll have much less to do in the week, so I'll either play even less or sit in the capital city more to suffer the anal jokes. Maybe this (as well as all the zone changes) will push me into leveling an alt finally. I'm really not too sure how I feel about all of this choice. I kind of like the chance of getting the same loot in a 10 but kind of bummed that it will nearly kill my chance of being in 25's and enjoying that challenge ever again. I like how they alluded to going back to the BC way of having multiple raids belonging to each tier. Maybe that will be this raid systems saving grace for me.

  20. #20
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    Like: Goal of making 10 man and 25 man roughly equal in difficulty and gear the same.
    Like: More loot per person in 25 man due to added amount of logistics.

    STRONGLY DISLIKE: Not being able to do 10 & 25 in the same lockout period.

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