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Thread: Should Taunts Really Miss Bosses?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    This.

    Why dumb down things? If taunts always hit, that is one less thing to worry about, making tanking even more boring. And let us say for the sake of argument they DID make a talent or minor glyph which adds 17% hit. They would then be forced to do something else to challenge you.

    It's a delicate balance, keeping it simple for the common denominator versus making a fight interesting enough to not have the top 30% percentile of the skilled tanks just leave in disgust.
    How the hell does a taunt missing a boss make things more exciting? It does nothing but cause potential problems, and to use such a lame Glyph to make sure it never happens over a far more interesting one is stupid.

    I'm all for Taunts missing on trash, now that I find interesting cause then you have to adjust the strategy you had for tanking those 4+ mobs or so such as charging it instead and slamming your shield against him to get his attention.

  2. #82

    Re: Should Taunts Really Miss Bosses?

    Then gem for the correct amount of hit and quit whining, or glyph it. You want to tank with less than 8% hit, deal with the problems it brings.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    How the hell does a taunt missing a boss make things more exciting? It does nothing but cause potential problems, and to use such a lame Glyph to make sure it never happens over a far more interesting one is stupid.

    I'm all for Taunts missing on trash, now that I find interesting cause then you have to adjust the strategy you had for tanking those 4+ mobs or so such as charging it instead and slamming your shield against him to get his attention.
    It's another mechanism to make the fights a challenge else we get to where we are now that all the fights are boring as hell.

    If idiots can't use there fixates to hold the boss until there taunt is back off CD then seriously they shouldnt be tanking.

    I peronally want them to bring the old fear mechanism back that anyone feared was off the agro table.

    At least I hear that CC will be back in cata .. thankly we might get back to actually have some interesting fights.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    It's another mechanism to make the fights a challenge else we get to where we are now that all the fights are boring as hell.

    If idiots can't use there fixates to hold the boss until there taunt is back off CD then seriously they shouldnt be tanking.

    I peronally want them to bring the old fear mechanism back that anyone feared was off the agro table.

    At least I hear that CC will be back in cata .. thankly we might get back to actually have some interesting fights.
    If blizzard wants to use taunts as a fight mechanic, that boss should not have taunts be allowed to miss against it, end of story. Now, if they want to make it a "taunting here might make the fight easier but is not required" I am all for taunts being allowed to miss.

    ICC fights:
    deathbringer: taunts should not be allowed to miss with as much as that heals for on heroic.
    fest: the debuff applications are far enough apart that you should taunt early enough to account for a resist and not even have to use a fixate
    put: again they are far enough apart that proper timing means you will not have to rely on a fixate to fill the gap if you get a resist
    sind: taunts should not be allowed to miss, especially since relying on a fixate means if you screw it up the other tank is behind a block already and the raid will get breathed/cleaved

    but as I already said, taunts are based of melee hit in beta right now so this discussion is kind of pointless.



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    Then gem for the correct amount of hit and quit whining, or glyph it. You want to tank with less than 8% hit, deal with the problems it brings.
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    Thanks for your amazing contribution to this discussion.

    Darksend explained it pretty well, its no fun failing all you can eat on Sindy due to a taunt miss and the tank having no fall back second taunt. Wasn't fun, or exciting, just frustrating.

    Now princess Huhuran back in the day, having to tank swamp on a untauntable mob, that was fun and exciting, sorta. Kind of like Deatwhisper...

    I'm glad to see taunt is going on melee hit.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    Then gem for the correct amount of hit and quit whining, or glyph it. You want to tank with less than 8% hit, deal with the problems it brings.
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    Well considering its 17% and you have to use a major glyph spot one that could you know otherwise be used for a survival glyph. Blizzard obviously thought it was a big enough issue to change it to melee hit so were not the only ones complaing. Forcing people to use a glyph just to hit the cap goes against everything blizzard has been trying to do throught all of wrath.


    Im glad to hear taunts are now being based off melee hit in beta.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanzer View Post

    Now princess Huhuran back in the day, having to tank swamp on a untauntable mob, that was fun and exciting, sorta. Kind of like Deatwhisper...

    I'm glad to see taunt is going on melee hit.
    I too miss the Tank swaps that just didn't require a single button press. Lady Deathwhisper brings back that feeling, only difference is in WoTLK DPS is allowed to be so much more reckless.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanzer View Post
    Thanks for your amazing contribution to this discussion.

    Darksend explained it pretty well, its no fun failing all you can eat on Sindy due to a taunt miss and the tank having no fall back second taunt. Wasn't fun, or exciting, just frustrating.

    Now princess Huhuran back in the day, having to tank swamp on a untauntable mob, that was fun and exciting, sorta. Kind of like Deatwhisper...

    I'm glad to see taunt is going on melee hit.
    By "correct amount of hit" I mean get to 8% hit, and then glyph, bringing you to 16% or more. I'm glad it's going to melee hit too, but if you KNOW you're having a problem with it, fix the problem. If you have a dranei in the raid you're at 17%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyoki View Post
    Well considering its 17% and you have to use a major glyph spot one that could you know otherwise be used for a survival glyph. Blizzard obviously thought it was a big enough issue to change it to melee hit so were not the only ones complaing. Forcing people to use a glyph just to hit the cap goes against everything blizzard has been trying to do throught all of wrath.


    Im glad to hear taunts are now being based off melee hit in beta.
    Complaining to get game mechanics changed is nice and all, but learning to play with the mechanics you have is what makes you a good player.

    If you know you're wiping (or potentially wiping) from a taunt miss on a bossfight for whatever reason...and it's a regular problem or you know it's even possible...

    Wouldn't that make the 8% from the major glyph the BEST survival glyph you could POSSIBLY take at that time? Since not having it means having a chance of wiping the raid?

    I play a DK tank, and personally I've never missed a boss taunt yet in ICC, but I also have a little over 8% hit and over 6.5% expertise, but I haven't gemmed or enchanted for either, it just happened the way my gear fell. But I notice when I have a pally or warrior offtanking with me, their taunts miss over half the time (cooldowns 4tw). I haven't seen my druid offtank miss either...but I'm sure it happens.

    Cry Havoc! And let slip the Ghosts of War..


  9. #89
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    Have fun working out a 8% hit set that contains either high HP or high frost resistance to tank heroic Sindragosa.

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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    By "correct amount of hit" I mean get to 8% hit, and then glyph, bringing you to 16% or more. I'm glad it's going to melee hit too, but if you KNOW you're having a problem with it, fix the problem. If you have a dranei in the raid you're at 17%.

    Complaining to get game mechanics changed is nice and all, but learning to play with the mechanics you have is what makes you a good player.

    If you know you're wiping (or potentially wiping) from a taunt miss on a bossfight for whatever reason...and it's a regular problem or you know it's even possible...

    Wouldn't that make the 8% from the major glyph the BEST survival glyph you could POSSIBLY take at that time? Since not having it means having a chance of wiping the raid?
    That is flawed reasoning, considering taunt doesn't miss often enough to make a major glyph slot worth it, or 'the best' survival glyph to take. Its effectively saying take something thats only useful a very small percentage of the time because the game mechanics are dumb. And get the idea out of your head that this is a bunch of complaining, this is a discussion about whether people think taunt mechanics are flawed right now, which most people agree, they are. And obviously blizzard agrees as well, hence the change in Cataclysm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    I play a DK tank, and personally I've never missed a boss taunt yet in ICC, but I also have a little over 8% hit and over 6.5% expertise, but I haven't gemmed or enchanted for either, it just happened the way my gear fell. But I notice when I have a pally or warrior offtanking with me, their taunts miss over half the time (cooldowns 4tw). I haven't seen my druid offtank miss either...but I'm sure it happens.
    Considering your very limited experience in ICC on your DK, this isn't saying much. Your tank spec isn't using glyph of Dark Command, so unless your gemmed out the wazoo with hit gems (which you said you weren't) I'm pretty sure you've missed plenty of taunts, just because it wasn't critical, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. You also apparently havn't done any heroics on the DK, so again, experience...yeah. Oh, and our druid tank misses taunt all the time, wiped us on Heroic Sindy a few times, so he had to ditch a useful glyph for the taunt glyph since he didn't have a fallback like DKs or Warriors.

  11. #91
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    I've had Taunt miss, realize it missed, hit Mocking blow, get that parried, realize it got parried, then hit aoe taunt! as blood beast spawned... and they raped my face... Awesome! glyphing taunt so I don't have to go through this, because it is really the ONLY hard part of the fight as a tank? kind of stupid...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  12. #92
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    And thats sort of the point it's this dumbing down of bits of randomness that takes the challenge out of all the encounters and gives us where we are heading boredom.

    Prince in kara was a fun if slightly frustrating fight because depending where the hellfire totems landed made the fight easy or hard. Under the logic we have in this thread we need to know the exact order and placement they fall because hell we can't have an encounter with a bit of randomness in it cause we might fail.

    Skill can overcome randomness most of the time and all this sort of thinking in the thread is take the skill out of the game like CC and fear and anything that isnt remotely controllable cause hell we cant have a wipe on a boss.

    I like alot of old school players really really dislike where this is all going basically what you are all asking for is a fun fight for your lootz with guaranteed success.

    Hell why don't we put a cheat button in like solataire so you can always get that kill and you can be doubly proud of the times you get the kill without using the cheat button.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  13. #93
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    A common thing we've been saying in this thread though is if an Encounter is based on Taunting Mechanics, I shouldn't have to Glyph it so it doesn't miss.

    Other then that I'm fine with taunts missing anywhere else. Back in TBC when tanking 3+ mobs was a pain as a Warrior having a Taunt miss only complicated things further but made them more interesting and fun.

    Tanking in Wrath is lame, missing a Taunt on Sindragosa makes it lamer.

  14. #94
    I guess I'm just going to say exactly what we tell people that are beating a dead horse they can't do anything to change...(especially since it's changing in caty).

    SUCK IT UP AND STOP WHINING. Get over it, the world goes on...when a game turns you into a flaming asshole on some anonymous forums you might want to take a deep breath and walk away for a few minutes.

    Cry Havoc! And let slip the Ghosts of War..


  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    I guess I'm just going to say exactly what we tell people that are beating a dead horse they can't do anything to change...(especially since it's changing in caty).

    SUCK IT UP AND STOP WHINING. Get over it, the world goes on...when a game turns you into a flaming asshole on some anonymous forums you might want to take a deep breath and walk away for a few minutes.
    .....Rage? It's the Theory and Mechanics Discussion forum, were supposed to discuss such things, this is far from a stupid post that only a few people post on and shoot down as an irrelevant issue. And who knows this topic might have helped make Blizzard decide to put Taunt on the Hit table.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    By "correct amount of hit" I mean get to 8% hit, and then glyph, bringing you to 16% or more. I'm glad it's going to melee hit too, but if you KNOW you're having a problem with it, fix the problem. If you have a dranei in the raid you're at 17%.

    Complaining to get game mechanics changed is nice and all, but learning to play with the mechanics you have is what makes you a good player.

    If you know you're wiping (or potentially wiping) from a taunt miss on a bossfight for whatever reason...and it's a regular problem or you know it's even possible...

    Wouldn't that make the 8% from the major glyph the BEST survival glyph you could POSSIBLY take at that time? Since not having it means having a chance of wiping the raid?

    I play a DK tank, and personally I've never missed a boss taunt yet in ICC, but I also have a little over 8% hit and over 6.5% expertise, but I haven't gemmed or enchanted for either, it just happened the way my gear fell. But I notice when I have a pally or warrior offtanking with me, their taunts miss over half the time (cooldowns 4tw). I haven't seen my druid offtank miss either...but I'm sure it happens.
    I play 3 different tank classes & have raided with all of them. (Warrior, DK, paladin - cba to level a druid too :P) DK and pala have secondary taunts. They also have ranged damage attacks that they can use in a jifffy to grab loose adds, etc. ie they have the tools needed built in to do their job. I really havent felt the need to glyph for taunt on those toons (though i still would do it if i were doing heroics, just to be sure). The DK toon also found it easy to hit the hitcap too, way way easier than my warrior.

    OK so i glyph for taunt on warrior, big deal you say? Add that i need to use my remaining two glyph slots to get my major cooldowns to levels required for fights - something which comes again built in on the other toons. So, when playing my warrior i'm having to sacrifice survivability that my other toons already have built in to do the same job that the other toons can also do better with their built in tools.

    Consider Lich King fight. I usually tank the horrors there and we usually dont have misdirects available. The mobs are lvl 83. So while on my warrior, i have to use a taunt glyph, meaning i sacrifice a shield block glyph that would've contributed a LOT to my survival when the two enrage (remember, no hunter = no tranq). A missed taunt = dead somebody as they spawn out of range of mocking blow and challanging shout would TOTALLY ruin the positionings. On the dk, i can use deathcoil, deathgrip, ranged icy touch, dark command, so have many tools to pick up a mob at range without sacrificing any major glyph slot.

    Taunts missing where taunts are required is just "uninteresting game play". Glad they fixed it.

    Oh and for your last comment, this forum is for people to come & discuss ideas. This isnt whining, this is mechanics analysis.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    I guess I'm just going to say exactly what we tell people that are beating a dead horse they can't do anything to change...(especially since it's changing in caty).

    SUCK IT UP AND STOP WHINING. Get over it, the world goes on...when a game turns you into a flaming asshole on some anonymous forums you might want to take a deep breath and walk away for a few minutes.
    Like I said before, we're having a discussion. The only one raging is you, but thanks for making it clear that you still have nothing productive to add to this thread. Moving on...


    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    And thats sort of the point it's this dumbing down of bits of randomness that takes the challenge out of all the encounters and gives us where we are heading boredom.

    Prince in kara was a fun if slightly frustrating fight because depending where the hellfire totems landed made the fight easy or hard. Under the logic we have in this thread we need to know the exact order and placement they fall because hell we can't have an encounter with a bit of randomness in it cause we might fail.

    Skill can overcome randomness most of the time and all this sort of thinking in the thread is take the skill out of the game like CC and fear and anything that isnt remotely controllable cause hell we cant have a wipe on a boss.

    I like alot of old school players really really dislike where this is all going basically what you are all asking for is a fun fight for your lootz with guaranteed success.

    Hell why don't we put a cheat button in like solataire so you can always get that kill and you can be doubly proud of the times you get the kill without using the cheat button.
    Skill has nothing to do with a taunt missing on a boss fight that requires a timely tank swap, such as Heroic Sindragosa. No one likes getting a boss to 5%, perfect execution, only to wipe because of something silly like a taunt missing and then secondary taunt missing/getting parried right after, when it was required, there's nothing skillful about it, just flawed design. And who said anything about taking out CC and fear? I think you are missing the point of the topic.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    I guess I'm just going to say exactly what we tell people that are beating a dead horse they can't do anything to change...(especially since it's changing in caty).

    SUCK IT UP AND STOP WHINING. Get over it, the world goes on...when a game turns you into a flaming asshole on some anonymous forums you might want to take a deep breath and walk away for a few minutes.
    Speaking of flaming assholes on some anonymous forums...

    And to contribute usefully...I agree that on fights like DBS and Sindragosa (and to a lesser extent Festergut) it's absurd that you can miss the boss with a taunt. For warriors it's less of a big deal (though Kaze pointed out a possible problem even for us), but certainly bears are lacking in options and even DKs and pallies can have problems.

    To be honest the entire idea of tauntable bosses is a pretty uninteresting one and leads to poor play all around. I'd rather they just made bosses un-tauntable again, and if they DO want to make hard tank swaps part of an encounter, then just make the taunt always hit the boss.

    Honestly though, hard tank swaps aren't a terribly interesting mechanic anyway.
    Last edited by Ion; 07-16-2010 at 02:08 PM.

  19. #99
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    I do wish tank swaps were done in a way that avoided the simple use of Taunt, but Taunt as a skill should not miss. It has never been fun and it has never been a good mechanic to have in the game. The only thing it does is cause random wipes--and nobody likes that.

    More things should be Taunt immune, but leaving a chance for the skill itself to miss as a 'skill' element is really barking up the wrong tree.
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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanzer View Post
    Skill has nothing to do with a taunt missing on a boss fight that requires a timely tank swap, such as Heroic Sindragosa. No one likes getting a boss to 5%, perfect execution, only to wipe because of something silly like a taunt missing and then secondary taunt missing/getting parried right after, when it was required, there's nothing skillful about it, just flawed design. And who said anything about taking out CC and fear? I think you are missing the point of the topic.

    And thats exactly the point why should 5% be any different to 95% .. Even patchwork had and enrage close to death that used to wipe groups.

    This whole topic is flawed and I get the point just violently disagree with it .. I will lobby to get your solitaire "cheat button" installed for you all.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

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