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Thread: Should Taunts Really Miss Bosses?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    Those abilities give you enough time for your taunt to come of of cooldown however thus stalling for time.
    Just be careful about that. They also add to the DR count of taunts. That won't matter on all fights, but some fights in heroic it will (for some reason Putricide comes to mind).

  2. #42
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    I have to agree with Martie. I've wiped my raid a number of times due to taunts missing. Do I hate it? Of course. Do I want it to change? Not really. I love tanking and all, but really, you attack the mob, hammer through your rotation and avoid whatever nasty shit it's trying to throw at you. Having to worry about stuff outside of that, and gearing/reacting accordingly makes fights more interesting. I don't just want some easymode 'I hit this button, boss attacks me' mechanic. Putting it on the melee hit table makes sense, but it shouldn't simply have 100% hit chance.

    Trading out glyphs and the such is just how things go. You gain the ability to do one thing better, so you should have to sacrifice for that.

  3. #43
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    It does suck a bit that they miss.
    But really, you don't have to waste out a glyph spot.
    Pallies/dks can use the second taunt.

    Wars/Druids can use the fixate which lasts just long enough to taunt again.
    If your taunt misses within the next minute, god just hates you.

  4. #44
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    I'm currently ROLLING in hit rating(the melee variety, so my spell hit rating should be even higher) and I'm a draenei. Still I had missed taunts on LDW(which is'n really a biggie), on Saurfang(which is annoying) and Fester(which IS a whopper). All on normal modes.
    Yes, I sometimes use Vig on my OT. But as of late, I severely outgear my OTs so Vig is best to use on my DPS/healers(dependant on set and setting).

    I shall celebrate the day when I can permanently swap out the taunt glyph for something I would actually want to use. It's bad enough I have to spend 3 talent points and two glyphs to get my survival CDs down to 2min. This is just adding insult to injury.

    There are fun choices(like not maxing out shield mastery so you get deep wounds), there are interesting choices(like spending points in fury to get 4/5 or 5/5 demo shout while giving up threat stats in arms) and there are stupid choices. I consider my glyph of taunt to be the stupidest choice Blizz has made me to choose, like, EVAR. Yes, I consider this even stupider than the old AP buff priests had on Inner Fire. That stupid.
    End of.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  5. #45
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    What about switching taunt to a minor glyph since there's really nothing much useful there :P
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  6. #46
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    They should never ever make a boss tauntable ever again unless some specific encounter ability requires it (think kalecgos and the phasing)

    /thread

    (yes I realize this will suck for fights were the offtank cannot maintain vengeance stacks because he will never be able to keep up on threat but that is another story for another time)



  7. #47
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    I agree with darksend. Tank swaps are a boring and way overused mechanic on bosses. Almost to the point where the only thing tanks have to worry about is landing their taunt (and this is why the thread was started.. because it sucks).

    Cleave soaking fights and tank swaps via real boss mechanics are fun, taunting back and forth throughout a 5-10 minute boss fight.. is not fun at all.

    also, most tanks have other abilities they can use to taunt a second time to save their asses. And as long as the other tanks slow down when you taunt the boss, the DR wont matter because of how they work now.

  8. #48
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    They could even do creative things like "sindragosa's frost breath removes <insert name of the sub 35% aoe because I am blanking right now>"

    Blizzard is caught in a web of its own good intentions. I have said this before, we will never EVER see another fight that is designed from the ground up to be solo tanked (things like morrowgar that can be solo tanked but is possibly easier with people splitting the lashes yes, but a straight up solo tank fight like archimonde, no. While typing that though I realized there actually have been a lot less single tank fights in the past than I thought there would be)



  9. #49
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    RoS was a fun tank swap fight (tho you didnt always use a real tank)

    Linx boss in ZA was fun. A flat cleave fight, but both tanks had other things to do.

    Council type bosses are fun



    I dont want single tank fights.. i just want less taunt swaps. I want more taunt immune bosses so dps can learn to not be stupid again. ect ect ect.

    oh, more CC fights plz.

  10. #50
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    The problem with multiple tank fights (as Ghostcrawler noted) is that there has to be enough happening for 2+ tanks, yet (and the point GC missed) low enough healing requirements to keep them all standing (you couldn't have 2x HC LK damage throughput in the fight without sacrificing DPS for Healers).

    I think though that this mindset is part of the WoW gamestyle, where each boss tends to be stand alone rather than being their own mini-raid. Most two+ tank fights we see involve an add section and a boss section, or two bosses with similar requirements. This was classed as boring to see / play rather than single tank fights.

    Personally I like the mini-raid style encounters (council fights, large scaling adds that are actually an issue etc). We should really see more Sarth+3D encounters rather than single bosses. Of course some will fight alone and have mechanics that make them one tank or multiple (the taunt game) however there is far more flexibility in letting multiple tanks loose on an encounter (spirit phases, multiple adds, big adds, multiple bosses, splitting bosses, debuff fights, petrification fights, tank death / meltdown fights etc).

    We cannot really get away from the taunt mechanic though without making threat more important as a tool. On Bloodboil it was too easy to get caught up in threat generation and become nearly impossible to get the boss switching as desired, it was a case often of get aggro then stop to allow the other tanks the chance to make up that active 10% so that the transitions could occur nicely. In the current world where TPS is unbalanced (Paladins going from godly, to OP, to relatively low on single targets for example over the expansion) simply won't work well. We need more tools and more balance for fights like this to work such that classes do not become liabilities without their taunts (bandaid fix makes threat differences irrelevant)

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    They could even do creative things like "sindragosa's frost breath removes <insert name of the sub 35% aoe because I am blanking right now>"

    Blizzard is caught in a web of its own good intentions. I have said this before, we will never EVER see another fight that is designed from the ground up to be solo tanked (things like morrowgar that can be solo tanked but is possibly easier with people splitting the lashes yes, but a straight up solo tank fight like archimonde, no. While typing that though I realized there actually have been a lot less single tank fights in the past than I thought there would be)
    Are you talking about boss fights that require only 1 tank? As in no adds for a OT or anything, just 1 tank?

    If so that's really a bad move IMO. Tanks already have the smallest raid slots allocated to them. 2 on 10 and 2 (with the occasional 3rd) on 25. Ushering in single tank fights will only compound the problem. Personally I love multi tank fights, however I can agree I'm rather tired of the "Ill grab him first for 4 stacks , then tag your it...."
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    Are you talking about boss fights that require only 1 tank? As in no adds for a OT or anything, just 1 tank?

    If so that's really a bad move IMO. Tanks already have the smallest raid slots allocated to them. 2 on 10 and 2 (with the occasional 3rd) on 25. Ushering in single tank fights will only compound the problem. Personally I love multi tank fights, however I can agree I'm rather tired of the "Ill grab him first for 4 stacks , then tag your it...."
    No, I am talking about fights like sindragosa where it seems like they just threw the debuff on there to force it to be a 2 tank fight. Nothing is more boring than being the offtank and doing nothing till 35%. They need to stop making fights where the offtank is useless for so much of the fight.

    edit: granted the last 35% is a LOT of fun (especially when trying to get the achievement on a hard mode kill) but still the first part of the fight..... BORINGGGGGGGGGG



  13. #53
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    I couldn't agree more Darksend. One encounter I really enjoyed was Iron Council hard mode where the tank had to run away and die, meaning the other tank had to tank first. This WAS a taunt swap mechanic but I think a bit more inventive. Lady Deathwhisper hard mode was a great nod at old "tank swap without taunt" encounters however with the way tricks of the trade and misdirect are, there really isn't much too it other than swapping tricks/md to the OT when the MT hits 4 or 5 stacks.

    The main problem is that encounters will feel forced if you always have to have adds or another boss. The feel of fighting one big massive dragon is pretty epic and it would be a shame to lose that by giving the off tank "something to do".

    Darksend how would you have gone about the first phase of Sindragosa if you were to design it? What should this fight have done? Or do you think it should be more like the last phase the whole way through.

  14. #54
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    Re: Lady Deathwhisper HM

    You can completely ignore the threat reduction by pumping every MD and tricks into the tank with a 5 stack since they still get that threat even with a 5 stack and just brute force the encounter.

    Re: Sind

    I honestly do not know, I just came up with 3-4 ideas but all of them felt "forced" because I agree with you, I hate forced tank swaps that feel artificial just for the sake of tank swaps.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    No, I am talking about fights like sindragosa where it seems like they just threw the debuff on there to force it to be a 2 tank fight. Nothing is more boring than being the offtank and doing nothing till 35%. They need to stop making fights where the offtank is useless for so much of the fight.

    edit: granted the last 35% is a LOT of fun (especially when trying to get the achievement on a hard mode kill) but still the first part of the fight..... BORINGGGGGGGGGG
    On that I can totally agree. I am the OT for that fight ZZZzzzzz.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by squats View Post
    I agree with darksend. Tank swaps are a boring and way overused mechanic on bosses. Almost to the point where the only thing tanks have to worry about is landing their taunt (and this is why the thread was started.. because it sucks).

    Cleave soaking fights and tank swaps via real boss mechanics are fun, taunting back and forth throughout a 5-10 minute boss fight.. is not fun at all.
    I agree with this and Darksend, tanking has become so boring where generally you just have to stand there generate threat (with much assistance from rogues and hunters) and hit taunt every now and then.

    To be honest I practically felt like I was being carried through my ICC10 Hardmode group (5% buff) Since there is generally nothing significant a tank really has to. You can practically go into most encounters w/o knowing the way the fight works. You just need to know where to stand and when to taunt, meanwhile the DPS has to maximize damage while staying alive, while healers have it even harder avoiding the same things while keeping everyone alive.

    Before Wrath tanks generally coordinated the way the fight would move, I remember myself alone wiped an entire 25 man raid cause I couldn't properly Main Tank The Lurker Below (I kno lol, but yea he's harder then most bosses in Wrath when you think about it) I kept getting Whirled off the platform. After doing some research I simply learned standing mid way in water is pro. But my point is nothing gets that complicated anymore.

    Being able to tank certain bosses or mobs set you apart from other tanks. Being able to deal with how Lurker smacks you around and then pick up his adds (adds were trouble back then). Stance dancing through Nightbanes fears (on a day where I was absent my guild literally couldn't do it because the Warrior didn't kno how to stance dance somehow), and properly moving Hydross so you dont get multiple spawns. All of these are abilities gained through engaging a unique mechanic which keeps encounters interesting.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    Before Wrath tanks generally coordinated the way the fight would move, I remember myself alone wiped an entire 25 man raid cause I couldn't properly Main Tank The Lurker Below (I kno lol, but yea he's harder then most bosses in Wrath when you think about it) I kept getting Whirled off the platform. After doing some research I simply learned standing mid way in water is pro. But my point is nothing gets that complicated anymore.

    Being able to tank certain bosses or mobs set you apart from other tanks. Being able to deal with how Lurker smacks you around and then pick up his adds (adds were trouble back then). Stance dancing through Nightbanes fears (on a day where I was absent my guild literally couldn't do it because the Warrior didn't kno how to stance dance somehow), and properly moving Hydross so you dont get multiple spawns. All of these are abilities gained through engaging a unique mechanic which keeps encounters interesting.
    I hope you're kidding. Lurker Below was an instant kill for any competitive guild in BC. It sounds to me like you're saying tanking used to be fun because the guild you used to be in sucked. I don't mean any offense by saying this, but it is an important distinction to make. My guild did not need to stance dance to beat nighbane, we often didn't even have a warrior in the raid... but claiming a 10 man raid like Karazhan has complicated fights is a bit of a stretch no matter what skill level your guild is or was.

    Being a good tank today is just as important as it was then, even more so if your guild is competitive. Fights aren't any more or less complicated than they were in the past, they are simply different... sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way.

    I personally like taunt switching as a mechanic, it may be over used in current encounters but when used as a way of forcing tanks to be precise over a period of time. Heroic Saurfang may not be the hardest fight, but I like that it lets you measure just how precisely your raid can play with a quantifiable score at the end that goes beyond kill or wipe.

    Taunt switching is just one more thing tanks have to balance and if that were missing from the equation tanking would become as boring as a lot of people are claiming it already is.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teran View Post
    I hope you're kidding. Lurker Below was an instant kill for any competitive guild in BC. It sounds to me like you're saying tanking used to be fun because the guild you used to be in sucked. I don't mean any offense by saying this, but it is an important distinction to make. My guild did not need to stance dance to beat nighbane, we often didn't even have a warrior in the raid... but claiming a 10 man raid like Karazhan has complicated fights is a bit of a stretch no matter what skill level your guild is or was.

    Being a good tank today is just as important as it was then, even more so if your guild is competitive. Fights aren't any more or less complicated than they were in the past, they are simply different... sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way.

    I personally like taunt switching as a mechanic, it may be over used in current encounters but when used as a way of forcing tanks to be precise over a period of time. Heroic Saurfang may not be the hardest fight, but I like that it lets you measure just how precisely your raid can play with a quantifiable score at the end that goes beyond kill or wipe.

    Taunt switching is just one more thing tanks have to balance and if that were missing from the equation tanking would become as boring as a lot of people are claiming it already is.
    No I'm not kidding....Lurker was an instant kill for any competitive guild, but when your tank isn't smart enough to avoid getting Spouted off the damn battlefield your entire raid is going to wipe. And unfortunately I wasn't. A tank that can stance dance Nightbane is indeed unneeded, but if you lack tremor totems and a "dwarf" priest things can get problematic. I'll admit I didn't raid with the more elite during TBC furthest I got was 5/6 SSC, 1/4 TK and 1/5 Hyjal but I as someone whose been tanking since vanilla I can tell the difference between encounters that are designed to challenge tanks and those that are not.

    These days tanking raiding encounter doesn't feel much different then doing a 5 man since the encounters dont demand much from the tank except simple positioning and when to press taunt and generating threat isn't a challenge like it used to be due to the surplus of threat enhancements such as Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade.
    So with such simplifications, tanking really doesn't feel much different then DPSing while standing infront of the boss, except that tanks are normally exempt from many of the bosses abilities.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    ...but I as someone whose been tanking since vanilla I can tell the difference between encounters that are designed to challenge tanks and those that are not.
    While you may feel this way, it is simply not true. You do not speak for me, and unless you're secretly on the blizzard raid and dungeon design team I doubt you know the first thing about blizzard's internal encounter design philosophy or intents.

    It sounds as if you have a very narrow view of just what is challenging. It's just a guess, but Blizzard probably designs encounters around challenging an entire raid, not two or three of the twenty-five people. Sometimes an encounter may not seem challenging to you, but then you may not be doing all you can to increase raid efficiency as a whole. As a tank there's always something you could be doing better... and by "you" I mean "all of us tanks". Maybe it takes playing as dps and/or healing to know this simple truth, but tanking is about so much more than just keeping threat and staying alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    These days tanking raiding encounter doesn't feel much different then doing a 5 man since the encounters dont demand much from the tank except simple positioning and when to press taunt and generating threat isn't a challenge like it used to be due to the surplus of threat enhancements such as Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade.
    Misdirection mid fight is not an optimal ability for hunters to use, and tricks on a tank is a waste of dps. If you are relying on these consistently you are making your tanking easier at a cost of dps. These things might seem small but everything matters and cumulatively they add up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    So with such simplifications, tanking really doesn't feel much different then DPSing while standing infront of the boss, except that tanks are normally exempt from many of the bosses abilities.
    If this is how you think things work then I have to humbly suggest that you're doing something wrong. Tanks may be exempt from certain abilities, but this is not unusual... nor is it unusual for melee dps, ranged dps, caster dps, and healers all to be immune to certain abilities based on positioning, mana pool, class role, and position on the threat list. Your implication that tanking is easy only because we don't get hit by certain crowd control abilities is just as silly as saying dpsing is easy only because they don't get hit by cleaves, breaths, and other abilities that would one hit kill any non-tank.

    The bottom line is this. If you think tanking is too easy then perhaps it is time for a role or game change. I personally think that no matter how easy or difficult an encounter is, there is always something I can be doing better.

  20. #60
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    This thread isnt about tanking being too easy. Its about tanking being boring. Yeah sure you can do things to make the raid more efficient, but that wont make the mechanics of a fight any less boring to a tank.

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