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Thread: Questions about Hand of Reckoning

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davih View Post
    marrowgars bad because his aggro doesnt reset anymore, meaning youll be most likely top of the list when he finished his bone storm, and to be honest no retridin should be taunting anything in a raid enviroment, the damage is quite trivial seeing as bosses have millions of health the chance of the 6k crits being needed is low.
    a non-tank at the top of marrowgar's threat list will either kill all the melee or the raid depending on how you position the raid.

  2. #42
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    How many bosses go taunt immune due to diminishing returns?

  3. #43
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    If it wasn't risking the loss of other raid dps or healers that happen to be in the line of fire for cleaves/breath/nasty frontal damage, I would let the boss (or whatever you taunted) kill you. You risk killing the people that keep me alive while I tank, so after you've paid a hefty repair bill and been made to sit outside of the raid until you learn not to throw a taunt into your rotation for just a little more dps...I might let you come back in and dps. I know it may come off as rude, but place yourself in the same position, you're tanking a boss and some a-hole taunts for a slight dps boost and gets himself and all of the melee killed. Would you want said person coming back in and risking the same thing happening again?

    And that's what really grinds my gears.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dulvarian View Post
    How many bosses go taunt immune due to diminishing returns?
    As far as I've been able to tell, all of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmbupp View Post
    My questions are, why do people think this is a bad idea and why aren't more ret pallies doing this?
    imagine doing this on Marrowgar: You taunt him, just as he does a saber lash. Congratulations, you have just killed yourself and the healer next to you, causing completely unnescesary risk to the raid as well as a repairbill for both yourself and your team-members.

    I promise you, do a thing like this on my raids, and you are off the active roster - for good. Try to remember that the world is not centered arround you, and that you actions may have consequences for other than yourself.

    This problem is closely related to the issue of self-centric dps Death Knights popping army of the dead for a dps boost, without having the slightes clue that they are about to cause a wipe. Example: I OT'ed Anub'Arak in ToC25 pug once and was assigned to add-positioning. A Death Knight pops Army. "But Army does not taunt Bosses" No, but adds are not bosses. The pesky ghouls started taunting the adds, pulling them away from the patches of ice and they burrowed. We wiped terribly. Luckily the Raid Leader had sense enough to figure out what had happened and kick the offending DK.
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-05-2010 at 03:06 AM.
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
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  6. #46
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    I hope you actually had the civility to just ask the Deathknight to not use Army on the next attempt first. You're being no better than he was if you don't have the common courtesy to try and explain to the Death Knight why Army isn't a good idea (ever).

    Similarly with HoR. If people are doing it using it incautiously because they haven't considered possible consequences, then they are indeed at fault. But if you never try and explain what they're doing wrong and why, you're being just as much of an idiot as you think they're being.
    Official Dragon Wiggler of the Ashen Rose Conspiracy
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    I hope you actually had the civility to just ask the Deathknight to not use Army on the next attempt first. You're being no better than he was if you don't have the common courtesy to try and explain to the Death Knight why Army isn't a good idea (ever).
    I wasn't raid leader at that particular instance, so the decision to kick him was not mine. "Luckily" referred to that fact that he at least did not went on to blame me for not doing my assigned task.

    Many of the more experienced players have had it with reckless popping of Army and have very short tempers in that regard. That said, I'd probably not kicked him myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    Similarly with HoR. If people are doing it using it incautiously because they haven't considered possible consequences, then they are indeed at fault. But if you never try and explain what they're doing wrong and why, you're being just as much of an idiot as you think they're being.
    While I'm very keen to offer any kind of advice to any player that has a sincere wish to improve themselves, I also have a limit - as to which things are just too obvious with even a mediocre knowledge of game mechanics - where it becomes pointless babysitting.

    Deliberately taunting a boss off a tank, without a very good reason to do so, is one such thing.

    Popping army? Well, that one is has a bit more subtle mechanic, so I usually respond with a "go read up on your class mechanics and please don't do that again!". Personally I would be glad to see army converted into a pure dps cooldown with no extra threat besides the threat such damage would normally cause (Which would then mean that a DK in tanking pressence could use it as a threat-booster also) - it's usage as an aoe taunt cooldown is so very situational that it's nearing nonexisting.
    Last edited by Ajire; 05-05-2010 at 08:18 AM.
    "You pull it, you tank it" -Ajire
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davih View Post
    to be honest no retridin should be taunting anything in a raid enviroment
    That's a pretty narrow-minded view, in my opinion. The job of DPS is to kill enemies, and the faster they do that the better - if there are situations where a Retribution Paladin can use Hand of Reckoning completely without risk to get additional damage, they should do it. Those situations are limited, though.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardolan View Post
    That's a pretty narrow-minded view, in my opinion. The job of DPS is to kill enemies, and the faster they do that the better - if there are situations where a Retribution Paladin can use Hand of Reckoning completely without risk to get additional damage, they should do it. Those situations are limited, though.
    This is also quite a narrow-minded view, imo
    The job of the DPS is to kill enemies WHILE watching their treats, fire, etc and ensuring the raid can keep going smoothly. It is not such a race that you would like to use this kind of spell just to bump your dps by a really small number.

    It is not about a situation where the Ret Pala can use HoR completely without risk to get additional damage. It is whether this action would help the raid really progress better/faster. Does it help? I believe that in 99,5% (I would say 100%, but there may be one situation out there where this would help) of the time, it does not help. So it is pointless in using. Unless you count boosting your dps by a marginal amount "help", something I clearly do not consider real help.

  10. #50
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    its very rude to pull aggro off one of us liek that. i stress over building and keeping up aggro and when im watching omen and someones threat hops up like that it makes me feel for one scared they might die and two upset that they taunted all my hard work off >.<

    pretty muhc like lots said its just really disrespectfull

    i let ppl die when they do it to me so

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    I hope you actually had the civility to just ask the Deathknight to not use Army on the next attempt first. You're being no better than he was if you don't have the common courtesy to try and explain to the Death Knight why Army isn't a good idea (ever).

    Similarly with HoR. If people are doing it using it incautiously because they haven't considered possible consequences, then they are indeed at fault. But if you never try and explain what they're doing wrong and why, you're being just as much of an idiot as you think they're being.
    i do somewhat agree with you to the extent that it's always good to explain to new players what such and such spell or ability can do. but to be honest if you've levelled up to 80 you probably have spent at least 5 minutes just reading the tooltips of your abilites and although you might not be able to pull 8k DPS with a average 219 ilvl gear, you at least know that such and such spell shouldn't be used in the encounter.

    taunting mobs can be done when running heroics with your guildies. i had one of ret pally friends DPS with his Righteous Fury active on certain naxxramas bosses simply because i had such a solid threat lead that it was becoming boring for me (the same friend also ocassionally pulls entire packs of mob and places a hand of protection on me). i often also bet with my hunters that they won't be pulling threat off me, telling them not to FD or MD. i also see it as a way to hone my tanking skills in a raid. with guildies/friends it's a way to keep things entertaining and different. but in pug and raids it is really not the thing to do either because it is annoying, or because it can cause a raid wipe.

  12. #52
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    Army of the Dead is only learned at level 80. As far as we know, that could've been his first time ever to see it!
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  13. #53
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    In general, tanks really dont like losing aggro. In a multi mob situation, a lot of good tanks will use threat plates. When we lose aggro, the mobs plate will change another color. We wont know why we lost it.... but we will immediately go and get it again. Which will stop us from generating threat on the mob we should be focusing, which could get ripped off us on the dps that is focusing it.

    We have a fury warrior that likes to tank an add or two on Phase I of the Lich King. He asked me about it in advance and its no problem if I know its coming.

    Also, holding aggro is a source of pride for many tanks. Most tanks are not motivated by big DPS numbers. If we were, we wouldnt be tanks, instead gravitating toward high dps classes. Tanks are more driven by their desire to protect their teammates and ensure that the raid can "do their thing" without fear of getting their face bashed in by Bosses or adds. Tanks dont even like it when other tanks taunt off of them without reason.

    On top of all of the bad ideas named above, its generally considered bad form to taunt off a tank unless the situation calls for it. If one tank is on 6 adds and another has one, sure, take 1 or 2. But for the most part, we dont like it.

    It may seem hard to believe...., but tanks can SOMETIMES be control freaks. It serves their role very well. Give your partner a break. DPS away without taunting. He or she will thank you for it.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardolan View Post
    That's a pretty narrow-minded view, in my opinion. The job of DPS is to kill enemies, and the faster they do that the better - if there are situations where a Retribution Paladin can use Hand of Reckoning completely without risk to get additional damage, they should do it. Those situations are limited, though.
    The job of DPS is to kill stuff while letting other people do their jobs without interference. And to use whatever utility stuff they have to--slowing runners, kiting, disabling traps, MD/TotT, CC, whatever. There is a BIG difference between being a great DPSer who does tons of damage and a bad DPSer who does tons of damage--and the difference is that the bad DPSer thinks that their only job is to do tons of damage.


    Hand of reckoning is super awesome for stopping runners though; I've been taking my paladin into the scarlet monasteries and it comes in handy cause those aholes ALWAYS run (unless you judgement of justice one and people actually focus fire properly). And when they flee, they stop targeting the tank and therefore it will do damage.

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