Questions about Hand of Reckoning

[Satorri]

I will 100% let anyone who pulls stuff for me, or taunts off of me on purpose, tank the mob as long as it doesn't kill anyone but that person.

Ha ha, I do the same.

Usually that's only dps DKs who Death Grip foolishly. (Sure if it's called for, or helpful, but I've seen WAY too many DKs do it because they were too lazy to run to their target)

[Illidra]

i deathgrip lots of mobs their called cult adherents that have spell reflect active

'oh no im way to far away to pick up the mobs, OMG SPELL RELFECT, DEATHGRIP TO THE RESCUEEE!!!!!!'

also alto of fun when dpsing, frontflipping and dropping a howling blast whiel moveing at high speed loooks awwwwwesome.


but no if the mobs is being tanked, i dont care if taunting would give me 1k dps more, im not gna annoy a tank, as a mainspec tank i know how bloody annoying it is when someone thinks 'omg more dps, better spam <insert damage dealing taunt here>', then gets the group cleaved.

[Fetzie]

I think basically what people are saying here: if the dps taunts, he will die. It is not worth it. It is, in fact, NEVER worth taunting a boss unless told to.

[winterbourne]

Concur.

Doing it "when it doesn't really matter anymore" (meaning when the target is dying anyway) is a selfish number-grinding mentality. This behavior displays a lack of discipline and respect, more than anything else. I don't mean it as a personal attack to the OP, but someone who would do this for a trifling addition to numbers when the fight is in hand, is someone likely to engage in other raid-killing tactics without thinking about it as well. Please note that you've come to tanks with this question. We don't do numbers, they are meaningless and Recount can even pose a danger to us (as in this thread) *smile*

As a tank, i will do this with my OT's (on random trash only) with the expectation that in groups of mobs, we watch the raid bars for aggro. So long as its a tank with the red dot, we don't care which. I've been working with my guild's tanks to up our dps and we use ICC trash packs for experiments like constant HoR taunting. But that is tank to tank and already agreed upon beforehand.

[Fenier]

Ha ha, I do the same.

Usually that's only dps DKs who Death Grip foolishly. (Sure if it's called for, or helpful, but I've seen WAY too many DKs do it because they were too lazy to run to their target)

I was doing Heroic Pit of Saron on my Warrior with a guildie who needs the Axe. We get queued with a Blood DK who over the course of the run would death grip mobs already in melee range (not sure why, but rank watch reported him at Heart Strike Rank 1 of 6.. soo..) so I don't say anything. I just keep up my rotation and if I get the mob back great, if not the DK dies. Either way it's a win.

So we clear all the way to the final boss. DK starts off with Army of the Dead. I stand there annoyed and let the boss kill all the ghouls, then taunt. The DK is standing right beside him and just as the boss shouts POWER OVERWHELMING, I see the Boss turn around and one shot the DK, which is amazing because he was 250,000 threat below me. DK doesn't understand why he died. He didn't understand why he died to Ick's Poison Nova either (Didn't move) and he was doing 1700 DPS.

Also while tanking on my Paladin alt (I run one of each tank class) doing Maradoun, I had a shaman decide my pulling was to slow and 'help' me. The first time I figured it was an accident, the second time I figured something was up, but then I saw her run past the group to tag the next batch. I stopped using Consecrate and let them beat on her and then I and my GF stood there and watched her panic screaming Help! while the other 2 DPS killed them. Then the shaman got exceptionally offended when we both told her that we realize we can't save stupid and no longer even try.

So really, it's not limited to just 80 players. People level 1 - 80 doing this stuff to tanks and it's no surprise that most tanks who have tanked at 80 have a intense dislike of both of those actions and will seek to rid the world of those kinds of people whenever possible.

[ulyssez]

Using hand of reckoning is a bad idea more than 99% of time as dps. If the taunt actally causes the mob to attack u, i would not use it. if ur using HoR as an execute move against mobs in a heroic i would consider it a mild annoyance as a tank and hope that one of them crits u

there are situations where HoR does dmg and doesnt cause the mob to target u though. Examples include dps on lady deathwhisper phase 1 only(u might catch a frostbolt but only 1), dps on ooze/cloud from pp, dps on valks from p2 lk, finishing off the orbs after lk transition. I'm not 100% certain on all these, but u can taunt to do dmg without making the mobs switch targets sometimes. If the mob is taunt immune then HoR does 0 dmg i believe.

[proudmoore]

Learning when and where HoReckoning can be abused for damage is one of the ways you can tell the good Paladins from the mediocre. Very much like with Deathknights and Army of the Pissed Off Tanks. However, its primarily a tank-orientated "skill".

Any mob that has very weak or no targetted attacks (including melee) is a game target. That includes things like the Lich King post 10%, the Ice Orbs and Valkyr he summons on transitions, etc. Lady Deathwhisper's Adherents are another possible target. Yogg's tentacles (and I think Yogg himself) too. Before Marrowgar got nerfed to maintaining his full threat table, you could use Taunt on him during Bonestorm. Anytime a mob is "not active" (e.g. Icehowl while Stunned, the 2 seconds after a mob spawns, while casting some non-targetted spells etc), it'll deal damage. Usually.

To the above poster, I believe that Professor's adds are immune. Most things are, specifically to avoid this kind of abuse (it was hotfixed a week or two after it was implemented - in that window, it worked on all sorts of things like XT's heart, Hodir's Iceblocks, etc).

However, I would encourage you not to experiment indiscriminately. As has been mentioned, Taunting for a tiny bit more DPS is at best extremely discourteous, and at worst, it can and will wipe out raids. If you wish to experiment, spec tank and do so in heroics, that should identify the kind of scenarios where you can expect to be able to get away with it. Other than that, you're just being unpleasant to group with.

[Martie]

Pallie tank speaking here.

I use HoR in many situations where I need a little threat boost, as it can be used whenever the mob isn't targetting me. Many mobs cast spells on specific targets, and that means you can HoR them.

The only place DPS should use them is places where DPS shouldn't be able to use them. (IE on mobs without an aggro table.) The ice blocks at sindy comes to mind.

Festergut adds are immune if memory serves.

[Satorri]

Any mob that has very weak or no targetted attacks (including melee) is a game target. That includes things like the Lich King post 10%,

Totally not the point, as your comments are well-said, but LK post 10% meaning when the group is dead? =)

The ice blocks at sindy comes to mind.
Festergut adds are immune if memory serves.

The ice blocks are immune to taunt, so I'd assume they're immune to that damage, no?

And goes without saying, but you mean Rotface's adds? The little slimes are immune to taunt, so they should take no damage, the Big Ooze is not immune to taunt but the tank needs to kite it so taunting would be terrible, and you never dps them anyway, so it is pointless except for the sake of padding your dps numbers?

[Shico752]

HoR should not even be on your bars if your Ret or if it is its stuck in a conner somewhere in case of emergency

[Doherty]

If we're in one of the heroics that was released at WotLK's launch, then I most likely wouldn't mind. Lots of times during trash, when mobs have barely any health left I'll run to the next group anyways. In the last seconds of a boss fight I wouldn't mind, assuming you timed it properly.

If you taunted at the beginning or during the course of any fight, I wouldn't like it. I think the most important thing to do when PuG'ing is to give a quick explanation ahead of time of what you will be doing. It would be disheartening to think that my threat was so low that a DPS inevitably pulled at the end of a boss fight. What I find more annoying are the DPS that can't wait a few seconds before opening up.

I sympathize with this Paladin as long as he's using the technique properly. Who am I to judge? When I run a heroic on my Hunter, I'll switch targets to get a Kill Shot if I have to. If it had a taunt mechanic built in, I still would. That's because I can set up a technique where I Feign Death or briefly kite, just like the Paladin sets up a technique. It keeps me more engaged.

[Trogdorrior]

HoR is perhaps the most important part of my questing routine. The less hp a mob has before it gets to me the better, but for situations when you're in a group, not so much. All other factors aside, I come to this from a kindness standpoint. If that boss gets off any manner of aoe or cleave-esque damage in those last few seconds, your bubble protects you, but not any dps standing next to you. Just not very nice to open them up to damage just to pop off a measly couple thousand damage.

[Martie]

The ice blocks are immune to taunt, so I'd assume they're immune to that damage, no?

Are you sure about that? I don't remember having an issue taunting them.

And goes without saying, but you mean Rotface's adds? The little slimes are immune to taunt, so they should take no damage, the Big Ooze is not immune to taunt but the tank needs to kite it so taunting would be terrible, and you never dps them anyway, so it is pointless except for the sake of padding your dps numbers?

I meant Putricide, sorry.

[Leucifer]

Even if you managed to not get killed by taunting stuff off of the tank, I can tell you exactly why tanks don't like it.

The tank's job is to hold threat on everything and often that is an act of triage. You put threat where it is needed and you get used to the pace and predictability so that you can threaten things smartly. If the DPS is taunting it doesn't just pull threat off the tank it matches your threat to the tanks and throws an unpredictable monkey wrench in their job.

If you're using it "where it doesn't matter" as you say, then you don't need the extra damage. If you're using it where the damage will be significant, you're also probably really messing up the tanks and putting your whole group at risk.

So, my question is, why is it so important for you to get some extra damage? Is padding your dps worth the havoc of taunting things off the tank?

This says it all.

Is that TINY bit of dps REALLY worth it?

You're intentionally pulling aggro for a tiny bit of dps.

You can probably get away with it on mobs. Maybe get away with it on heroic bosses regularly. Less likely to get away with it on raid bosses where we're talking MILLIONS of health. The whole idea is pretty much "playing with fire". Well, you're playing with fire, and so far, getting away with it.

Some posters have good points about cleaves and such. The bosses DON'T QUIT just because they're down to 0.1% health. Maybe a cleave lands that kills a raid member like with Marrowgar's Saber Lash. Maybe it's enough to pull Patchwerk and get him to land Hateful Strike on that rogue next to you and it obliterates them. Or MAYBE.... you get REALLY lucky and Saurfang turns and nails you while you have Rune of Blood and now, instead of being dead.... his health just went from 10k up to 70k.... no wait.... 140 k..... awwww sh!t.

Again, this is one of those things that dps does that I find EXTREMELY aggravating..... because it's ego driven. It's all about "you"..... and you're supposed to be part of a team/group/guild.

Yes. It hits hard. Yes. It does a lot of damage. Yes. You do it while I'm tanking, and I'm gonna push for kicking you from the group because you're putting yourself ahead of the group for a one-time 5-6k hit. What else are you willing to throw us under the bus for?

EDIT:
I'm sorry. This particular discussion... after reading all of it again... makes me go.... >_<

I've already said enough.

[Fetzie]

Or MAYBE.... you get REALLY lucky and Saurfang turns and nails you while you have Rune of Blood and now, instead of being dead.... his health just went from 10k up to 70k.... no wait.... 140 k..... awwww sh!t.

or maybe you really crack the jackpot and taunt saurfang at 10k life while having Mark of the Fallen Champion on you...and the boss has suddenly got 4 million life back. Yeah you would be SO popular.

[Oblivion]

HoR does indeed work on the Ice Blocks for Sindy, been doing it for the last few weeks myself.

[Satorri]

Sweet, that's good to know! Perhaps we should compile a list of HoR applicable damage items for the eager Ret/Healadins. =)

[Martie]

Sweet, that's good to know! Perhaps we should compile a list of HoR applicable damage items for the eager Ret/Healadins. =)

We really shouldn't - making a list of stuff you can taunt will lead to Retridins becoming retardins.

For every person who can handle doing it right, there's five out there who'll screw it up.

[Airowird]

We really shouldn't - making a list of stuff you can taunt will lead to Retridins becoming retardins.

For every person who can handle doing it right, there's five out there who'll screw it up.

The point is to make a list of bosses/mobs where it is ok to use HoR.
Any target that can not kill you but is tauntable is basicly what you should have on there, like ice blocks, Marrowgar up to 6 seconds before end of whirlwind (so the fixate doesn't last past the aggro reset), ...

[Davih]

marrowgars bad because his aggro doesnt reset anymore, meaning youll be most likely top of the list when he finished his bone storm, and to be honest no retridin should be taunting anything in a raid enviroment, the damage is quite trivial seeing as bosses have millions of health the chance of the 6k crits being needed is low.