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Thread: New tanking Masteries

  1. #1
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    New tanking Masteries

    So, all 4 tank previews are out. When looking at the rundown of the mastery bonus for each of the tanks, it gives us a quick idea of what we can expect blizzard wants to do with each class in terms of play style. Here is a quick rundown :

    Death knights
    Healing Absorption: When you heal yourself, you'll receive an additional effect that absorbs incoming damage.

    Druids :
    Savage Defense is the current bear mechanic for converting crits into damage absorption and will be improved for bears.

    Paladins :
    Block Amount: We want to keep the kit of the paladin as a tank who blocks a lot. So by contrast, the warrior tank will sometimes get critical blocks, but the paladin will absorb more damage with normal blocks.

    Warriors :
    Critical Block Chance: As we mentioned in the stat changes preview, block rating is changing to a chance to block 30% of a melee swing's damage. Protection warriors have a chance that the block will be a critical block and block for 60% of a melee swing's damage instead. There will likely be talents available to push the amount blocked even higher.

    So, looking at this, we can see that Paladins will have a very passive and non-spike bonus, warriors are getting a passive spiked bonus, Druids are getting a passive spiked bonus and DKs are getting a non-passive (possibly spiked bonus).

    What I'm wondering mosly is :

    How will the druid's mastery stat compare to the melee crit stat that you would get on items, if you think about it, both of them would boost your savage defense. This may become interesting trying to balance the two out.

    And most of all, how far will they go with DK tank healing? It realy looks like the healing factor will be much more important for DK tanks than it used to, so talents like Rune tap, Mark of blood and book worms are probably going to be mandatory. Given that DKs will need to heal themselves all of the time to get the mastery bonus, I'm wondering if they will get some sort of talent that increases threat when healing to compensate for the fact that we would have less "attacks" in our rotation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zambony View Post
    And most of all, how far will they go with DK tank healing? It realy looks like the healing factor will be much more important for DK tanks than it used to, so talents like Rune tap, Mark of blood and book worms are probably going to be mandatory. Given that DKs will need to heal themselves all of the time to get the mastery bonus, I'm wondering if they will get some sort of talent that increases threat when healing to compensate for the fact that we would have less "attacks" in our rotation.
    When hasn't DK tank healing been important?I use it to try and counter spikes of damage personally. Healers otherwise get frustrated. I think the key is that they specify that healing yourself will also affect incoming damage.

    You know what I think? I think this is Blizzard's answer to the "shield block" issue for DK's. Bears got Savage Defense as their mechanism.... but DK's were really left without. WotN gave us some of the cool tricks that Paladins have (Ardent Defender), but that was only a recent modification. Yes, we have cooldowns. Guess what? A lot of us sit on those for the real "oh shit" moments. I don't believe DK tanks are using them in a rotation and are instead, like me, saving them as a measure of last resort or to deal with a known incoming big hit.

    I think Blizzard recognized this problem but were unable to implement a meaningful solution across all three trees. The only ability they could reasonably attach it to is death strike, which sees a lot of use in blood spec, some maybe in unholy, and even less in a frost build. So, even then, it'd be applied unevenly. What I see, all this in mind, is with the shift toward blood as the tank tree we'll likely see that effect tied into death strike, vampiric blood, and/or rune tap. I can also see the effect being similar to the druid passive, Savage Defense. Just my two cents.
    No one tanks in a void.........

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    Yeah on the topic of Death Knight tanking, I think we will be seeing more healing abilities than long cooldowns and an ability that we aren't always using (Especially now with slower rune refreshes). I think there's a good chance that they will implement many different healing mechanics into new and improved spells that will now be soley for tanking rather than trying to merge two trees. There is also the possibility that they will keep the consistancy of our healing through global abilities, but change the presences so that maybe our attacks will heal us passively? It's possible that our auto attacks would grant us a heal equal to the damage that we deal with them which would lead to an absorbtion from the mastery? It's difficult to guess these things, all we can do is wait, but there's a good chance that the tree will be altered completely from what it is now. We may see Rune Tap, Mark of Blood and others redesigned for specific tanking situations.

    Especially hoping for new AoE spells / spell changes
    Last edited by Raenis; 04-15-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raenis View Post
    Especially hoping for new AoE spells / spell changes
    Well, if we get a threat boost to healing, we could potentially use this as an AOE threat ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    When hasn't DK tank healing been important?
    I'm not saying it wasn't important, but lets face it, most of our heals (deathstrike) were over heals. Most of the other healing abilities where not mandatory. If you did decide to get them, they would be used on spike damage and still be overhealing most of the time (as healers would use there big heals then too). With the new Cata system, it has already been said that most people won't be topped off all of the time, meaning that there will be alot less overhealing from our abilities meaning that our heals will actually count for something most of the time.
    Last edited by zambony; 04-15-2010 at 02:28 PM. Reason: ponctuations

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    Theres also another side of the coin to the DK healing issue.

    How much will the shield be worth? Is it = to the DK's healing amount? Or is it a flat shield amount that procs every time a DK heals himself? Does the shield stack with itself?

    I see way more potential for problems with this system than benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrekgar View Post
    Theres also another side of the coin to the DK healing issue.

    How much will the shield be worth? Is it = to the DK's healing amount? Or is it a flat shield amount that procs every time a DK heals himself? Does the shield stack with itself?

    I see way more potential for problems with this system than benefit.
    Zarhym stated:

    Healing Absorption: When you heal yourself, you'll receive an additional effect that absorbs incoming damage.
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...62356308&sid=1

    ...... an additional effect that absorbs incoming damage could be similar to a warrior/pally shield like the Block mechanic, in that I reduces the incoming damage on that one attack.... or it could be like Savage Defense, where it reduces the damage on the next inbound attack by a certain factor to be determined.

    You asked good questions, but they're questions only Blizzard can answer. Sure. It be end up be overpowered and cause balance problems. I think you're jumping the gun a bit. You are talking about this like it's going to be something really crazy. Heck... while we're at it.... how about....

    Ardent Defender?
    or......
    Divine Shield?
    or.....
    Savage Defense?

    Blizzard just put Savage Defense into play with WotLK. Seems to have worked out fine. Divine Shield.... come on. Can't say you've never PvP'ed against a pally who pops this and you now get to sit back and try to kill them all over again. Right? Ardent Defender.... the "I should be dead right now but " ability? Yet you say you see "way more potential for problems". Back it up with something. I'm only suggesting something on the level of Savage Defense. Like, maybe a 10% damage reduction on the next attack after using death strike. Or 5% per disease on target. Sure, it's "on demand" to some degree, but you have to have runes up in order to use it. It makes it almost like a short term cooldown ability. It does make up for some of the difference in not having a "block" type mechanic. And again..... this example is only my SWAG..... a crazy suggestion as to how they might intend to implement it. I really don't forsee Blizzard saying, "hey, with each heal effect, we're going to block 50% damage over the next 20 seconds and make it stackable!"

    Anyways.... sure. Blizzard could REALLY screw it away. Not that they don't have a history of doing that AT ALL..... lol..... but it does help close the gap between the DK tank and its counterparts. The y did something for druids that I think they liked, and now they're trying something with DK's to counter that missing "block".
    No one tanks in a void.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by zambony View Post
    How will the druid's mastery stat compare to the melee crit stat that you would get on items, if you think about it, both of them would boost your savage defense. This may become interesting trying to balance the two out.
    The descriptions are not explicit in terms of exactly how Bear or DK bubbles will scale with Mastery. Remember, the third Mastery is the one that comes from wearing the max armor-level for gear, and from Mastery on the gear.

    Bears currently get a Bubble equal to a % of their AP when they crit. That could remain the same, or it could be changed to work on another value, perhaps health, since our AP is looking to be more variable throughout the fight (depending on how things scale, potentially ramping up a LOT over the course of the fight). My first guess would be that the Mastery stat will dial up the % of whatever stat that is used to determine bubble size. Crit will be regulated by gear design, as usual. So, rather than Mastery being balanced against Crit, it will probably be a compounding bonus.


    Quote Originally Posted by zambony View Post
    And most of all, how far will they go with DK tank healing? It realy looks like the healing factor will be much more important for DK tanks than it used to, so talents like Rune tap, Mark of blood and book worms are probably going to be mandatory. Given that DKs will need to heal themselves all of the time to get the mastery bonus, I'm wondering if they will get some sort of talent that increases threat when healing to compensate for the fact that we would have less "attacks" in our rotation.
    I don't expect they will need to change anything about Blood's healing. I do expect self-healing to be more effective. The design aim of healing scale vs health scale is that tanks take multiple hits to die and multiple heals to be filled up, in general expecting a more frequent state of not pinned to the ceiling (over-healing being bad and wasteful as well as it being a rare thing that a tank will be in danger of a hit hit dead scenario). In that world even our routine DS heals done for the sake of threat and not healing will probably have a noticeably lower over-heal rate.

    What is more, the resource-limited design on Rune abilities will actually allow more pacing in when you use your abilities without just wasting threat (i.e right now if you have runes and you wait to use them you are getting sub-par threat value 95% of the time). We'll see if that is usable smartly be sharp tanks.

    Bloodworms (funny slip there) and Mark of Blood currently do not count as the DK's heals, so if nothing changed there they would not count for the Mastery. It is possible they will change that though, similar has been done with things like Judge of Light, Prayer of Mending, Earth Shield, etc.

    What I would expect? The Mastery bonus will determine the % of your self-heal (full heal, not effective) that is generated as an additional bubble. Like Bear bubbles, it will stack, and keep its value regardless of avoidance (since a hit deferred will just get absorbed on the next successful hit). The concept, so far as I can figure, is to maintain the value of Blood's self-healing such that A.) it buffs the functional value of the heals by adding a percentage as damage prevention instead of health restoration, and B.) it lets you keep value for healing even when it is over-healing (i.e. your heal may not be directly needed but it will still apply the bubble a la Living Seed which will hedge the value of trying to heal). I'm looking forward to it, and to seeing what the new tanking-specific tree looks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    What I would expect? The Mastery bonus will determine the % of your self-heal (full heal, not effective) that is generated as an additional bubble. Like Bear bubbles, it will stack, and keep its value regardless of avoidance (since a hit deferred will just get absorbed on the next successful hit). The concept, so far as I can figure, is to maintain the value of Blood's self-healing such that A.) it buffs the functional value of the heals by adding a percentage as damage prevention instead of health restoration, and B.) it lets you keep value for healing even when it is over-healing (i.e. your heal may not be directly needed but it will still apply the bubble a la Living Seed which will hedge the value of trying to heal). I'm looking forward to it, and to seeing what the new tanking-specific tree looks.
    I think that's key. Honestly.... it's great having the self heals, but they only carry so far. Again, in the instance of a hit that kills you... no amount of self healing will save you. The problem is: It's after the fact. Not to knock on healers (I love you all) .... but if I can't withstand the incoming hit.... you can't help me. Healing is reactive..... damage mitigation is proactive.

    I'll be honest Sat.... I'd be happy with at least part A, and I understand what you're saying in B. It just gives value to using that healing ability even if it is "excess". It'd be kinda like blade barrier in that, even though I tapped out a resource, I'm still receiving a benefit in exchange and not just sitting on that resource.
    No one tanks in a void.........

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    Actually, I would classify DS and Rune Tap as "lifesavers."

    That you can restore such a significant portion of your health allows it to be a supreme value in the hands of someone with a good trigger finger. My low health warning triggers at 40% health, when I hear that sound I am used to firing off Rune Tap and/or DS (sometimes I pull ERW to fire Rune Tap + 2 DS = 50% of your health back in 1.5 seconds) if they are available.

    Used casually or without thought they are nice hedges. Used actively they can be pretty serious.

    Obviously they won't do the work alone, that would be game-breaking, but they just about can in some situations. I've solo'd Loken and Garfrost in heroics when the group had a cataclysmic failure, all with my own self-healing.

    Imagine a world where your health isn't flickering full-empty-full like a light switch, a world where you can actually get high effective healing value out of DS even if you're just using it in rotation (also recognizing that there will likely be a lot more pace control in DK rune use with the slated changes).
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    Just wondering if they'll keep improved blood presence for Cata, that allows you to get the benefits of blood presence (as far as the healing aspect) in frost presence if I'm not mistaken. Sure it's a small amount of healing, but wouldn't it be a passive way to get the damage absorption?

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    The biggest problem I see about the absorption is: it sounds like todays block. It sounds like you will gain a fixed amount of dmg that you will absorb before you take your next dmg. I play a Disc and a warrior. I have seen how shielding can trvialize some stuff in a same way that blocking can. (Or if not shields than divine aegis which does not apply a debuff and works likewise as dk absorption sounds.) If you get many small hits you will never get hurt anyway - and it stacks with avoidance and mitigation. On the other hand absorbtion of fixed values are not realy good against big hits. The can only snip something from the big hit.

    If they scale the absorption with your health or if they scale the absorption with AP or Crit or any other stat - it will give you a fixed absolute value of dmg absorbed not a relative value. That is exactly the problem with block today. It does not scale with the mobs but only with your gear. The value will be better against weak hitters than against hard hitters.

    (On a side note: I'm a little bit sad that the core ability of dsic will be given to another speck as their mastery but such is life.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steakdinner View Post
    Just wondering if they'll keep improved blood presence for Cata, that allows you to get the benefits of blood presence (as far as the healing aspect) in frost presence if I'm not mistaken. Sure it's a small amount of healing, but wouldn't it be a passive way to get the damage absorption?
    What I would expect (all speculation of course), is that they will juggle the Presences to make sense with the tree-limited design, i.e. Frost Pres becomes Blood Pres, Unholy becomes Frost (possibly with a bit of tweaking to make sure the haste affects runes, or something similar to make it interesting next to the straight damage increase), and Blood becomes Unholy (though likely moved away from the health generation to something more appropriate to dps DKs).

    I would also expect some Blood talents that were specifically designed for Blood dps to go away. Imp Blood Pres is one of those, though it also has PvP utility. We'll see what form it takes but I doubt it will remain as is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    The biggest problem I see about the absorption is: it sounds like todays block. It sounds like you will gain a fixed amount of dmg that you will absorb before you take your next dmg... absorbtion of fixed values are not realy good against big hits. The can only snip something from the big hit.
    If they scale the absorption with your health or if they scale the absorption with AP or Crit or any other stat - it will give you a fixed absolute value of dmg absorbed not a relative value. That is exactly the problem with block today. It does not scale with the mobs but only with your gear.
    (On a side note: I'm a little bit sad that the core ability of dsic will be given to another speck as their mastery but such is life.)
    I think you're both close to the point and missing it at the same time. This is not a new idea and it is not Block. If anything it is a variation on the same principle as Savage Defense for Bears now.

    It is not Block. The current design of Block is a chance exclusive with dodge, parry, and miss, that lets you reduce the hit that gets through by a small static amount. Block's pitfall currently is that it requires a not-easy balance point. To low and it is trivial against large hits, too high and it risks making you immune to small hits. Thus the move to blocking a % of incoming hits (though it makes block tanks more vulnerable to small hits than they are now, which is really needed for parity and sensible game balance).

    It is not Disc Priest's niche. Disc Priests get to voluntarily and proc-wise give protective bubbles, yes, that is how they heal, but as I said above, Bears already have the ability that is being given to Blood, it just works in their own way (when they crit they make a stackable bubble that is a % of their AP in static reduction). It doesn't diminish Disc because it doesn't obstruct Disc's actions. Furthermore Holy Priests and Holy Pallies also have bubbles, they're just smaller or different in function.

    The value of the new design, like Savage Defense, as opposed to Block is that it has the following assets:
    A.) It is defer-able. It is not diminished in value by other survival values. If you have higher mitigation your bubble still applies the same reduction to what gets through. If you avoid when the bubble is up, the bubble stays there until you take damage. Block, by contrast, can only happen on a swing that is not a miss/dodge/parry, this attack table sets a varying value on Block rating and value currently (for example, Paladins can fairly easily get too much block chance, or get enough avoidance to waste block chance).

    B.) It is stackable. It cannot be wasted. If you have a bubble up and you trigger more, like Divine Aegis it is simply stacked on top. I'm sure we can expect a cap the way Divine Aegis has to keep you from pre-stacking it too much, but that is only to avoid excessive abuse of a loophole like being able to heal yourself out of combat.

    When you combine the two it is very easy to make a fixed and static value as a factor of what determines the size of the bubble. For example, for Bears the amount of damage reduced is based on the amount of crit and AP you have, which are controlled variables by Blizzard. There's nothing the player can really do to damage that because of A and B above. Similarly, if they factor how the healing bubble is applied, they can offer a similar protection to DKs. What I like about this is that rather than it being a result of threat generating abilities, it is a result of your survival abilities, so it enhances and reinforces the value of using your active survival tools as a DK tank. That is interesting, to me anyway.

    It doesn't need to block 30% of a hit to be valuable, though that could be a reachable value sometimes, possibly more depending on the various scales.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    It is not Block. The current design of Block is a chance exclusive with dodge, parry, and miss, that lets you reduce the hit that gets through by a small static amount. Block's pitfall currently is that it requires a not-easy balance point. To low and it is trivial against large hits, too high and it risks making you immune to small hits. Thus the move to blocking a % of incoming hits (though it makes block tanks more vulnerable to small hits than they are now, which is really needed for parity and sensible game balance).
    I get your point. The major difference will be that absorption counts against total incoming dps while WotLK-block-value counts for every blocked incoming hit alone. I admit that is a big difference.

    But I fear that absorb-tanks will go through a comparable hell that block-tanks did in WotLK. It will be a much nicer hell but the basic problem will stay the same. How to set a static value against a relative one?

    As you said, absorb will stack with parry, block will not. Assume they get it right and we will need several hits to drop to zero and will need several heals to get to full than the difference is not very relevant. At least every mitigation will help in a likewise manner and will be needed. If you will not die by the next hit and will not be full by the next heal it does not matter much if you block and parry the next swing(s) or if you parry with your absorb-procc up and get a full hit after the parry wears off. At least if you cannot stack the absorb faster than you may get comperable blocks and if the mitigated value is comperable. I doubt that you can stack your absorbtion high since you need some miss and dodge in a row (and since def will vanish misses will be seen less often).

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    When you combine the two it is very easy to make a fixed and static value as a factor of what determines the size of the bubble. For example, for Bears the amount of damage reduced is based on the amount of crit and AP you have, which are controlled variables by Blizzard. There's nothing the player can really do to damage that because of A and B above. Similarly, if they factor how the healing bubble is applied, they can offer a similar protection to DKs. What I like about this is that rather than it being a result of threat generating abilities, it is a result of your survival abilities, so it enhances and reinforces the value of using your active survival tools as a DK tank. That is interesting, to me anyway.
    But how to give both a comperable value? Block will always be relative now - absorb seems to be an absolute value determined from your gear. Blizz tried many different kinds of absolut values for block. They more than once said that they did not want to let block become another relative value. That they only would do so if nothing else worked. It looks like they could not find such a value.

    The major problem with block was not that paladins did not want any more block rating because they did not need it anymore. There ary many classes that get caped somehow and who have to change stats around when they get new gear because they would have too much or too less of a given stat. It was not that it did not stack with other survival values. It DOES stack with defence, armor, parry and dodge. The first 3 are obvious and since nothing else is needed when you parry (in WotLK) and dodge block steps in if they fail.

    One big balance-problem will not be there for absorb but the core problem is how to determine "normal incoming hits". There will be little soft-hitters and there will be big slow hitters. After dodge and parry block tanks will only be able to mitigate 30% * block-ratinig. The little bastards WILL hurt them again. But will they hurt absorb-tanks? For example a snake trap or pets will hurt block-tanks but their combined dps may be lower than your absorbtion/time. The same will be the case for dots. (PVP is not the major concern of tanks but blizz changed block around becaus of pvp. It will matter for them in cata. PVP was one of the reason why block was so hard to balance!)

    Incoming dps will not be a constant. Higher incoming melee dps will favor block tanks. Low incoming dps (of each kind) will favor absorb tanks. Stuns etc will favor absorb-tanks. How to balance that you can only block melee dmg but absorb every dmg?

    Will they be able to create encounters for both schools? In WotLK they only made one encounter that highly favored block over other mechanics. For most encounters block was meeningless. Block will be fine in cata but will they get it right for the fixed value absorb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    It doesn't need to block 30% of a hit to be valuable, though that could be a reachable value sometimes, possibly more depending on the various scales.
    I think that they should start with something comparable to the values block tanks will have. Block tanks will get more blocks (and warriors will get double blocks and will get them more often). So absorbtion has to start where block tanks start. That should be something around 30% of "normal incoming hit" and absorbtion tanks should have it nearly as often as block tanks can block. (Ok bears have to get something for not beeing able to parry and DKs selfheal has to count, somehow).

    There will be other differences for example if you get the absorb procc you know that you will survive said dmg but you never know if you will block (or even crit-block) the next swing. For good players that may be a difference. Block does not depend on anything the tank did before. That may be another difference I doubt that you can use it well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    It is not Disc Priest's niche. Disc Priests get to voluntarily and proc-wise give protective bubbles, yes, that is how they heal, but as I said above, Bears already have the ability that is being given to Blood, it just works in their own way (when they crit they make a stackable bubble that is a % of their AP in static reduction). It doesn't diminish Disc because it doesn't obstruct Disc's actions. Furthermore Holy Priests and Holy Pallies also have bubbles, they're just smaller or different in function.
    I do not think that this is the right place to discuss, but I did not speak about absorb I did speek about divine aegis which is a mechanic only disc has at the moment and they got it when they finaly gave priests two separate working trees to heal with. I think DA is the most defining talent of that tree. But many specs had to give abilities players thought of as kind of defining to other specs (refreshment, MS, buffs, CC, stuns, CDs, bloodlust, ...). Like I said: such is life.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    What I would expect (all speculation of course), is that they will juggle the Presences to make sense with the tree-limited design, i.e. Frost Pres becomes Blood Pres, Unholy becomes Frost (possibly with a bit of tweaking to make sure the haste affects runes, or something similar to make it interesting next to the straight damage increase), and Blood becomes Unholy (though likely moved away from the health generation to something more appropriate to dps DKs).
    Yeah I would expect something like this:

    Blood Presence
    The Death Knight takes on the presence of Blood, increasing Stamina by 8%, armor contribution from cloth, leather, mail and plate items by 60%, reducing damage taken by 8% and healing the Death Knight by 4% of damage dealt. Only one Presence may be active at a time.

    Frost Presence
    Strengthens the Death Knight with icy power, increasing all resistances by <level/2> and causing extra Frost damage equal to 12% of damage caused. Only one Presence may be active at a time.

    Unholy Presence
    Infuses the death knight with unholy fury, increasing attack speed by 15%, movement speed by 15% and reducing the global cooldown on all abilities by 0.5 sec. Only one Presence may be active at a time.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    But I fear that absorb-tanks will go through a comparable hell that block-tanks did in WotLK. It will be a much nicer hell but the basic problem will stay the same. How to set a static value against a relative one?
    That's what I'm saying though, we already have an "absorb tank" in WotLK, and it's working fine. Bear's Savage Defense is in full effect and has required little-to-no balancing.

    The block tank is matching hits directly with a block value, if you don't block the value disappears. "Absorb" tanks will get regular bubbles regardless of chance. The static value balance remains the same, but it is not as dead-matched as the block value. Let me try a different illustration. If a shield tank right now can get their avoidance and block chance to a high enough level, they can block almost every hit, and with current block values that means they can take virtually no damage from most trash. The absorb tank can apply bubbles at regular/predictable intervals, potentially at a decent scale (though currently less than block values) but they can never quite get that guarantee.

    Shield tanks against bosses had the problem that they only took so many swings, so Block was a *when you don't avoid* thing. Block is a small scale relative to the damage (though still does add up as a reduction). Even if you can block every hit it still keeps it's direct scale relative to the incoming hits so an "unhittable" scenario scales from damage immunity to the swarm, to a 8-15% reduction on a boss. Absorbs on the other hand are not related to what the enemy does but what the tank does. Right now, for example, you will get a constant stream of Bear Bubbles just by attacking things. It is based on your crit rate and AP, and the bubble cannot be wasted unless the fight ends with the bubble up. So you can predict the total absorbed by tank's stats and that does not vary with the sort of enemy. On small trash the bubbles will get chewed through constantly so only occasional hits will get soaked, whereas the bubble can build up on a single, big, slow-hitting enemy, and the absorbs will be larger in scale. The total absorbed will remain roughly the same though (with the small exception that Bear Swipes can generate more crits, but I am not clear on if each instance actually applies a separate shield, I'm fairly confident it does not).

    The point is, static Block can be out of whack with the various inputs, but the absorbs are fixed based on the tank regardless of input so they are free to stay consistent.

    % Blocking puts Block tanks still in a similar location to before where they get a varying response with input, *however* not having a static value keeps them from being damage immune, ever, and lets the value of block become a bigger deal against bosses.

    Both scenarios will now have a fixed scaling value overall for reducing tank damage. Block tanks will have a % damage reduction (compound of block chance and % reduction) and absorb tanks will have a fixed static value reduction over a fight, without regards for damage input type. In order to make sure they scale evenly, the system only needs to have stats balanced.



    As a side rail, here, this is what I would consider a form of parity (provided balanced variables) for tanks without homogenization. Pet peeve of mine: people who say, "you're giving all the tanks the ability to single-target tank, aoe-tank, and giving them some core survival tools. AMG YOU'RE MAKING ALL THE TANK THE SAME!" All the tanks play differently, just because everyone gets a taunt and a CD that reduces damage by a % for a short period of time does not mean they are all the same.

    Health will now be much easier to keep consistent since they have tuned the bonus stamina bits for certain classes to balance the extra stat-slots other tanks get (i.e. Bears and DKs don't get a shield, neither plus Paladins get guns, etc), and Bears' leather will now be roughly on par with plate stamina so Bears won't need giant extra health scalars.

    Armor is still easy to keep uniform since DKs get a Pres to adjust for not having a shield, and Bears get special multipliers for no shield and converting leather armor (and armor levels on gear is regulated).

    Avoidance will be something to keep an eye on in the new design, but I think we can count on Blizz to keep an eye on this. Miss is no longer variable without Defense. Everyone gets Dodge, Bears don't get Parry, and DKs and Bears don't get Block. Dodge is the only pure avoid remaining.

    Bears get a unique absorb setup that can be tooled to reduce incoming damage in appropriate scale. DKs can have their absorb system dialed down a bit to go with the extra damage reduction granted by parry. Warriors and Paladins each get their own Block style combined (assuming they keep the current concept) with lower parry chance, and no absorb system. This should allow diverse ways that tanks take damage (which in turn let them favor different stats and survival styles) but at the same time all the damage reduction values are pretty straight-forward enough and the designs should allow Blizz to regulate them a bit more.


    So, after droning on, as usual, maybe it makes a little more sense why Absorbs aren't remotely the same concern as static Blocks? ha ha I talk a lot.
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  16. #16
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    Yes you do but thats why we love ya.

    Still wish we knew more on how the new Avoidance and Mitigation Systems work. Particuarly how Parry and the Parry-Buff will affect the chances for other avoid/mitigation talents.

    It also is interesting how they say Vengence will take "awhile" to stack up. Unless our Health pools are Dude HUGE or we take so little damage, Probably a bit a both, i cant see how this is going to work. 50kHp would mean 5k is 10%. Mobs can EASILY do this now in a few seconds. Unless the amount applied to the buff per hit is scaled down its going to stack very fast.

  17. #17
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    Solution for the absorb: Make it only absorb X% (30-50%) of an incoming hit.
    It will still be enough for big boss hits, and for any high DPs income, yet it won't become overpowered in less demanding situations (like block is now)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  18. #18
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    No that would be too much homogenization. But it's more fun if mechanics stay different while they will contribute in a likewise manner.

    I understand the difference between the mitigation of a static value for each hit and a static value for a given time. However since I play a disc I know that you can trivialize dmg with absorbs (especially DA-absorbs that can be stacked high and fast) in a likewise manner than block today. Btw, block is good against trash because it can procc for each hit. Druid bubble can do the same for each swing against each mob which would be neerly as often as block (if the ratings would be the same).

    Anyway, I'm speaking about different levels of incoming dps. Like the same boss on normal and heroic mode. If you try the normal boss and go to the heroic version after that with the same equip all tanks will see bigger hits. Absorb tanks will mitigate the same amount of dmg from both bosses through absorb. But block tanks will block for 30% in both cases. 30% of the hits from the heroic boss will be much more than 30% of the normal boss. So block tanks will scale with the incoming dmg, absorb tanks will not. Against which incoming dmg should Blizz balance absorb? Against the normal boss? Against the heroic boss? Inbetween? In either case one school will mitigate much more than the other for one boss. They can try to compensate it somehow with encounter design but they said that it's not their plan to create encounters to favor different tanks. (Which is good.)

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Solution for the absorb: Make it only absorb X% (30-50%) of an incoming hit.
    It will still be enough for big boss hits, and for any high DPs income, yet it won't become overpowered in less demanding situations (like block is now)
    Ha ha, I just spent half the page explaining why that doesn't need to happen. The current state is fine and neither weak nor overpowered on principle alone.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Ha ha, I just spent half the page explaining why that doesn't need to happen. The current state is fine and neither weak nor overpowered on principle alone.
    Bah, blame my tiredness for skipping big posts >_<

    But hey, atleast it's been said now!

    Edit: read your post fully and I agree. It is different in the same way Bears have now, they can Swipe all they want, but they will only get a single bubble every ~1.5s (in case of Bears they don't stack, so Swiping more mobs only increases the chance you get that 1 bubble)
    Last edited by Airowird; 04-20-2010 at 04:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

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