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Thread: Expertise, Hit, and your Threat. What it means to all Tanks. (Current for 3.3.3)

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    Now, if you put only stamina there, you get following:
    21x30 = 630 stamina = 6300 hp ( no talents / buffs )
    You will / might be lacking some hit, expertise, dodge, parry, or whatever.

    Now, if you match every socket bonus with 10xx+15stam
    519 stamina = 5190 hp ( no talents / buffs )
    And you can get whatever stat you desire !

    So the difference is 1110 Health ( no talents / no buffs )

    Since I do not know how exactly the buff scaling strings works, I will keep quiet, but i assume that after buffs you are at around 1400-1500 difference.

    You might want to add icc 30%, and the difference overall is what ? 1820 hp ? 2k hp ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    The 2 000 HP ammount is AFTER TALENTS, BUFFS and ICC BUFF EVEN !
    From pure gemming - from a warrior standpoint:

    630 vs 519
    630 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.09 (warrior talent) = 755 sta
    519 *1.1 * 1.09 = 622 sta

    755 sta * 10 = 7550 HP * 1.3 (ICC buff) = 9815
    622 sta * 10 = 6220 HP * 1.3 (ICC buff) = 8086

    So it's a difference of 1729 HP against magic damage (because your other balanced stats, dodge/parry don't matter and you don't need the hit/exp to maintain threat)

    Against physical damage, let's assume 71% damage reduction (I think that's what I have atm) to get EHP.

    9815 * 1/(1-.71) = 33845 EHP
    8086 * 1/(1-.71) = 27883 EHP

    That's 5962 points of physical damage that can be taken without dying between tank 1 who gemmed pure Sta and tank 2 who gemmed rainbow. And that's at my current 71% DR. As armor increases the difference becomes even more prounced. At 74% it becomes a 6650 EHP difference.



    So the difference is not less than 2k health, it's nearly 6k at 71% DR and scales as DR increase (okay, it's less than 2k for magic damage calculations).



    Tanks who care give their healers bigger fail cushions, not hope that RNG strikes.... ;-)
    Last edited by Loganisis; 10-04-2010 at 01:41 PM. Reason: grammar edit + small clarification on 2nd to last sentance
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  2. #82
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    There is a thread about this located here: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...king-mechanics)

    If you need more threat and your rotation is perfect, gear for hit/expertise. Isn't that the point of this thread?
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    Ok, seems you are out of arguments, fair enough. I did not come here to troll anyways, but seems you dont even put things together.

    Very quickly.

    The 2 000 HP ammount is AFTER TALENTS, BUFFS and ICC BUFF EVEN !

    Armor is only source of mitigation ( your words )? Are you very sure ?

    Interesting that you do actually regem back to go full stamina.. Some people are able to kill endgame boss with 60k hp, but you need 5k more ? Even tho you got better gear then them ? I mean, you got more avoidance, mitigance, armor etc.. Will your stamina hunger ever end ? Or if you had a chance you would have gone 250 000 for Lichking normal ?
    end of discussion, we're talking about hardmode progression, you're talking about regular where you can wear spirit gear and get kills at this point. EH discussions are ALWAYS about cutting edge progression. farm bosses, DONT MATTER in these discussions because often times YOU ALREADY OUT GEAR IT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  4. #84
    end of discussion, we're talking about hardmode progression, you're talking about regular where you can wear spirit gear and get kills at this point. EH discussions are ALWAYS about cutting edge progression. farm bosses, DONT MATTER in these discussions because often times YOU ALREADY OUT GEAR IT.
    That. Like I posted in the LK 10 thread, we used a feral tank with cat gems and trinkets because it was farm content, not progression. There's a big difference. That doesn't mean, "ArP gems are optimal for tanking! Stamina is dumb!" it means we could have probably used a shaman to tank and been ok.

    And stop trying to hide behind the, "Misunderstood visionary" stuff. You're not a visionary just because no one agrees with you. It usually just means you're wrong.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    The 2 000 HP ammount is AFTER TALENTS, BUFFS and ICC BUFF EVEN !
    Loganisis already corrected this for you in a post above, so I won't repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    Armor is only source of mitigation ( your words )? Are you very sure ?
    I am 100% sure, try reading some of the stickies on this site. Particularly this one: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?40760-Mitigation. Satrina has been a pillar of the wow tanking community since this game started.

    If you disagree with that then you are trolling and just here to argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    About 102.4. Seems you did not catch it, I said, in TBC almost everyone was going for stamina, ignoring crushes, therefor being less helpfull to raids.
    Really is bringing up what tanks did an entire expansion OVER 2 Years Ago, really relevant in this thread? or at all?

    I think not. Let the past be the past please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    My question 4:
    Why were you so very disrespectfull, saying somewhere : All i see is new registrant coming & saying bull****s ?
    **** Might have been someone else, I am bit tired and I did read too many things, if so, /apologize

    See taht too, I said, might have been SOMEONE else.
    Try proof reading and checking things then. This is not a chat window, you have time to check things before you hit the submit reply button, so don't get all upset with me cause I called you out for trying to call me out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    This is my last post here, because some people will never open their eyes, yet they are more respected & blind crowds will follow.
    Well I wish you well then. I honestly don't know why your so upset. If you read half the information on this site you would understand what is correct and what is not. I understand it is in peoples nature to want to investigate and discover new better ways to do something.. however.

    We are at the end of this expansion. There are people on this site that have spent countess hours theory crafting to the final decimal the information you read. If you think you have a better way you have to prove it with real math and examples.

    A lot of I have seen, I feel, I think, means nothing if you cannot support it.

    The main stream information here is right for a reason, this is not a 2 party polictical system where people are trying to out do one another for gain. This site is here to inform people on the best possible way to go about things with the combined efforts of a community.

    Basically your entire platform of argument is EH (Effective Health, Armor + Stamina) or aka Stacking Stamina vs. Avoidance (random chance to avoid damage). The argument is old, tired, and has been discussed a million times over. It has been proven that in ICC (which is what this thread is about, and more over threat in ICC) that EH is the correct way to gear.

    Your wrong, accept it and be a better tank for understanding why you are wrong.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  6. #86
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    Bottom line is expertise/stam have very minimal effects on threat. My guild just downed halion hm last week and we had several wipes where I died to like a 69 overkill. As well as many close calls. In this type of progression survivability is paramount, being able to do slightly more threat to the boss doesn't matter one bit. The fact is, and it has been stated dozens of times in this thread, if you can't hold threat on a boss it is not hit or expertise causing it. It is either incorrect rotations or poor play by the dps in your guild (misdirects/failure to drop threat), or possibly even poor play on your own part like forgetting to vigilance or not threating the right targets. I see tanks that gem expertise for socket bonuses all the time on my server and it makes me cringe.

    My job is to survive and that's how I will always gem. The only real issue is parry hastes, and even on Halion who parry hastes (one of the only bosses that do) I don't gem for exp.

    Kaz said it best, if your talking about easy content, you could wear dps trinkets and still kill the boss if you want threat. If your talking about "cutting edge progression" you better get your gems right and survive the encounter, in the end nobody cares about the numbers, just the kill.

  7. #87
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    My last think, I did not even bother seeing whatever you write here. I just do not understand how blind can you be

    A.: You said the 2k Hp will save you, I never droped under 5k, even in hardest situations ( with normal heals )
    B.: I do not need ToTs / MDs on everything
    C.: I got xxx stamina less then 99% of other tanks with equal gear as me, and yet, I live much longer then any of them.
    D.: http://tfp2010.jimdo.com/class-guide...in/protection/ , cheer, kk, ty
    E.: You say parry haste is not present in some places, just because you installed crappy addon, incorect
    F.: If I miss / get parried / dodged 2x in row with righteous shield, I lost Libram stacks, therefor taking more damage
    G.: I am almost certain, that you are one of those guys, who says Dodge > Parry, even tho you do not see benefits of parry.
    H.: In end, it is basicaly explained on TFP, with a nice pic included.

    Cya

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsides View Post
    Bottom line is expertise/stam have very minimal effects on threat. My guild just downed halion hm last week and we had several wipes where I died to like a 69 overkill. As well as many close calls. In this type of progression survivability is paramount, being able to do slightly more threat to the boss doesn't matter one bit. The fact is, and it has been stated dozens of times in this thread, if you can't hold threat on a boss it is not hit or expertise causing it. It is either incorrect rotations or poor play by the dps in your guild (misdirects/failure to drop threat), or possibly even poor play on your own part like forgetting to vigilance or not threating the right targets. I see tanks that gem expertise for socket bonuses all the time on my server and it makes me cringe.

    My job is to survive and that's how I will always gem. The only real issue is parry hastes, and even on Halion who parry hastes (one of the only bosses that do) I don't gem for exp.

    Kaz said it best, if your talking about easy content, you could wear dps trinkets and still kill the boss if you want threat. If your talking about "cutting edge progression" you better get your gems right and survive the encounter, in the end nobody cares about the numbers, just the kill.
    About that, I had tanks, with similar gear on Halion 25 HC, but they had 6k more hp then me, and due to parry gibs, dying in like 1 sec.
    Meanwhile I was there with 55k hp and never droped under 10k.. So ye, if u forget other stats, u need stamina, because u get nuked.

    As for "Hard Encounters", LK HC Melee hits does not hurt a lot, Shamblings can be easily kited, u dont even need hunter / rogue to assist, if you are "smart" enough to outplay them, soulreaper is easy covered by CDs rotation.

    And ye, you gem for suvivability ( so you think ), but you dont realize each miss, can mean less survivabilty, same goes for parries..

    How does miss affect it ? Demo shout, thunderclap ( if not covered by somene else ), each time you hit, and if u got jol up, you most likely get healed for 1400is, so you covered 1400 is difference in HP pool ( difference betweewn geming full stam or balancing stats ) just because you did actually hit .

    Dunno how much "Magical HP you got", I was tanking RS 25 HC with 55 k hp, it was PuG, so we did not down it, but I never droped under 10k...hmm :< And no, I did not use CDs all the time, nor I had some massive overheals, I just used 245 onyx ring & flask of lesser resistance, and got selfhealed by some of 1400 hps, due to JoL / LoP.
    Last edited by Bondiee; 10-10-2010 at 01:14 AM.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    end of discussion, we're talking about hardmode progression, you're talking about regular where you can wear spirit gear and get kills at this point. EH discussions are ALWAYS about cutting edge progression. farm bosses, DONT MATTER in these discussions because often times YOU ALREADY OUT GEAR IT.
    Oh, yes, now you say, times of progression, you already outgear it..

    Look @ undergeared project, as example... Fester gut with 20% downed in full blue raid, did they need that stamina from gear ? Err, no

    Progression ? yes, of course your progression can be hard if you got no clue what you doing, you just mindlessly, as from tank view, think that going full stam ( so you get 1400 hp more ), will make a difference. Obviously then it is harder for you to progress.

    And uhm, did not mister Bodasafa STATED that GOING MINDLESSLY FULL STAMINA is only way & best way to go ? )

  10. #90
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    My last think, I did not even bother seeing whatever you write here. I just do not understand how blind can you be
    Did anyone else lol at this sentence? Kinda ironic statement.

    A.: You said the 2k Hp will save you, I never droped under 5k, even in hardest situations ( with normal heals )
    Anecdotal. Lets see logs.

    C.: I got xxx stamina less then 99% of other tanks with equal gear as me, and yet, I live much longer then any of them.
    Again, anecdotal. Logs please.

    So many incorrect assumptions, anecdotal evidence and empty claims with no numbers as proof. RNG is RNG, no matter how you dress it up.

    E.: You say parry haste is not present in some places, just because you installed crappy addon, incorect
    Only LDW and Sindragosa have parry haste. How many sources do you need to see? http://avengingwrathy.wordpress.com/...o-parry-haste/
    This page has pretty pictures for you too, since you seem into that Bondiee.

    F.: If I miss / get parried / dodged 2x in row with righteous shield, I lost Libram stacks, therefor taking more damage
    If you are depending on 2% dodge from your libram proc to save your life, you have bigger problems then your hit/expertise.

    About that, I had tanks, with similar gear on Halion 25 HC, but they had 6k more hp then me, and due to parry gibs, dying in like 1 sec.
    Meanwhile I was there with 55k hp and never droped under 10k.
    Still, anecdotal. Post logs. Wild baseless claims get you nowhere.

    I was tanking RS 25 HC with 55 k hp, it was PuG, so we did not down it, but I never droped under 10k...hmm :< And no, I did not use CDs all the time, nor I had some massive overheals,
    Post logs, so we can learn from your awesomeness. Otherwise you are just another troll.

    I was tanking RS 25 HC with 55 k hp, it was PuG, so we did not down it, but I never droped under 10k...hmm :< And no, I did not use CDs all the time, nor I had some massive overheals,
    Normal Festergut 10m is a far cry from HMTLK 25 or HM Halion 25. Festergut hits like a limp noodle, and is nowhere near progression content. Stay on topic.

    Bondiee, I have a few suggestions if you want people to take you seriously.
    1) Post your armory, so we can see your gems/gear/enchant choices in detail.
    2) Post logs of these instances where you are out-surviving the 'mindless tanks' while receiving fewer heals, and no raid support in the form of MD/tricks/Salvation etc.
    3) Learn grammar.

  11. #91
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    Also Bondiee, linking a website written by yourself to back up your own outlandish claims does nothing to actually prove your own point. Find a respected 3rd party source to back up your points. Go on. I'll wait. . . .

  12. #92
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    Okay, enough, thread cleaned out, no more attacking, no more unbiased/unproven anecdotal data. Infractions will be handed out for drivel, repeat offenders temp bans.

    This isn't OLD WORLD TANKS SPOUTING OFF, COPYING OTHER TANKS. This is fundamental.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bondiee View Post
    Oh, yes, now you say, times of progression, you already outgear it..

    Look @ undergeared project, as example... Fester gut with 20% downed in full blue raid, did they need that stamina from gear ? Err, no
    There are 3 things wrong with this example.

    1 - Most fundamentally the 20% buff means they are not progression raiders.

    2 - Although some might argue that the most fundamental problem is that you're talking about a normal mode as opposed to hard mode boss.

    3 - The strats for this boss were already figured out, which counts for a lot when it's time to execute.

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