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Thread: Expertise, Hit, and your Threat. What it means to all Tanks. (Current for 3.3.3)

  1. #41
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    TotT does affect dps in a meaningful way in that they don't ind up having to throttle back to prevent pulling off the tank or they don't pull aggro in the begining and die.

    Dead dps do zero dps.
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  2. #42
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    Good Afternoon folks,

    As a new poster, but long time reader, I'm wondering if there are any of the tank classes that you've found get "more" use form Expertise and Hit than others? I always assumed that DK's would benefit from some Hit (not at the expense of other stats, but if you get it its nice) as they can dual wield? Or with the warriors, does Expertise make more of a difference for them as a large chunk of Threat can come from Shield Slam, so would it stand to reason that they may want to explore getting to that 26 ish range as long as they don't sacrifice mass amounts of Avoidance or EHP to get it?

    Basically I'm just wondering if Hit and Exp should be discussed more in terms of specific classes and how they benefit from it more than others? I apologize in advance if there are threads pertainign to such, but I'm wondering if there was one, encompassing thread that explores the benefits that each tank class could gain from these two stats?

  3. #43
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    Being able to survive initial aggro is the one thing everybody agrees upon:
    -If you are under hit/expertise caps, the MD/TotT is your insurance policy for the small percentage of the time your first swing misses/gets dodged/parried.
    -Assuming there are no issues with rotation/spec/glyphs, even a tank one tier under a DPS' gear should be able to maintain threat once he has it. If there are issues with maintaining threat and there are no other reasons other than gear, the tank really should be running lower content beforehand.
    -Post-pull, rogues should not be TotT tanks, unless it is to assist with the pickup of adds, especially untauntable ones. It is a net DPS loss to the raid since 2 or more rogues are not getting the 10% buff.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmogg View Post
    Good Afternoon folks,

    As a new poster, but long time reader, I'm wondering if there are any of the tank classes that you've found get "more" use form Expertise and Hit than others? I always assumed that DK's would benefit from some Hit (not at the expense of other stats, but if you get it its nice) as they can dual wield? Or with the warriors, does Expertise make more of a difference for them as a large chunk of Threat can come from Shield Slam, so would it stand to reason that they may want to explore getting to that 26 ish range as long as they don't sacrifice mass amounts of Avoidance or EHP to get it?

    Basically I'm just wondering if Hit and Exp should be discussed more in terms of specific classes and how they benefit from it more than others? I apologize in advance if there are threads pertainign to such, but I'm wondering if there was one, encompassing thread that explores the benefits that each tank class could gain from these two stats?
    There was a time when this was true
    -Paladins valued more hit than expertise, because everything was a spell, and couldn't be dodged/parried
    -DKs dual wielding really worried about parry-gibbing and the DW hit penalty
    -Warriors and Bears craved expertise because everything was physical, parry-gibbing was the end of the world

    Today (3.3.5), none of that is true.
    -Paladin tank abilities of note are all physical and can be dodged/parried, making expertise just as valuable as hit
    -DKs got talents to help out hit rating, and they are supposed to use slower DPS weapons, lowering parries.
    -Parry hastes was turned off on a lot of bosses, so all tanks worried less about parry-gibs. I mean, are you *really* worried about Sindy and LDW parrying you on a frequent basis??

    So no, discussing on class basis is no longer valid.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    5- Tanks don't need anymore damage. If your raid is hitting enrage timers, the DPS classes are bad.
    Obviously, this goes for progression raiding only. I know I'm not the only tank out there who starts to value threat stats MUCH more after bosses are on farm. When I know I'm not going to die, I'm not going to ignore hit/expertise/etc. I make sure I'm capped on fights like marrowgar, rotface, dreamwalker, deathwhisper...basically all the "unlimited" bosses. It's always nice to add to a raid's dps. Dps is dps, whether it comes from the tank or a dps class. Raids always want more dps. Hell, on most ICC25 heroic fights now, I wear a hybrid set with 2p dps 2p tank, hit and expertise hardcap, dps trinkets, and a dps ring or two. I think the only fights I don't wear gear similar to that is the limited attempt bosses and blood princes (since I tank both melee princes - I like getting use out of my unidentifiable organ on this fight, lol). Most other tanks who've been farming the content for a while are doing the same.

    Also, when you get to the point where your raid is almost fully-geared, occasionally it can get a bit hairy trying to hold off of dps warriors or feral druids pushing 20k+ from the start of the fight if you are in max survival gear with very little hit/expertise (with an md and just a single wave tricks from the start). I never want my dps to have to hold back, even if only for a split second at the start of a fight.
    Last edited by Dragaan; 06-27-2010 at 02:36 AM.

  6. #46
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    i personally find hit smooths out my "rotation" for those times on farm fights that i tend to go into dps mode, i.e. dbs when its not time to taunt or when not actively tanking fester on inhales. I've also noticed once or twice my first icy touch missing and the boss goes straight for the dps. and no my dps doesnt normally ToT or MD simply because when IT does land there's almost no reason for it. But if i was really worried about the dps dying in that split second they have aggro i could just as easily taunt to pull the boss.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragaan View Post
    Obviously, this goes for progression raiding only. I know I'm not the only tank out there who starts to value threat stats MUCH more after bosses are on farm. When I know I'm not going to die, I'm not going to ignore hit/expertise/etc. I make sure I'm capped on fights like marrowgar, rotface, dreamwalker, deathwhisper...basically all the "unlimited" bosses. It's always nice to add to a raid's dps. Dps is dps, whether it comes from the tank or a dps class. Raids always want more dps. Hell, on most ICC25 heroic fights now, I wear a hybrid set with 2p dps 2p tank, hit and expertise hardcap, dps trinkets, and a dps ring or two. I think the only fights I don't wear gear similar to that is the limited attempt bosses and blood princes (since I tank both melee princes - I like getting use out of my unidentifiable organ on this fight, lol). Most other tanks who've been farming the content for a while are doing the same.

    Also, when you get to the point where your raid is almost fully-geared, occasionally it can get a bit hairy trying to hold off of dps warriors or feral druids pushing 20k+ from the start of the fight if you are in max survival gear with very little hit/expertise (with an md and just a single wave tricks from the start). I never want my dps to have to hold back, even if only for a split second at the start of a fight.
    Clearly, for farm content. Rarely is the subject brought up in a context where I want to speak to it.
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  8. #48
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    The problem with the OP is the usual one of generalisation that just won't die in the old EH debates. The tendency is to treat "stack stamina" like some kind of mantra. If I was going to try to drill in a mantra, it would be "gem stam, but gear for the encounter".

    If you take the average boss fight, then on average you can get away with very little hit and expertise, because on average the misses and parries will be largely offset by the quality of your rotation, the support you get from external threat, etc. Take the same gearset into an add fight like LDW or VDW or even LK and you need to think about hit and expertise in a totally different way. Now the impact of 2-3 parries/misses in a row could be much more significant... a Fanatic cleaves a rogue in half, an Abomination pukes the melee, a raging spirit does a spirit shriek on the raid or you miss your shockwave on the enraged shambler. These are not average things, these are encounter specific considerations.

  9. #49
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    ^^ Yes that's the accepted statement about EH -> avoidance once something becomes farm, but who does that in actuality? I don't see doing anything differently when it comes to EH. Maybe switching in gear for more hit for taunts, but they already did that. I think the stats are trivial and the margin for increasing threat is....marginal. The stats just don't matter that much. And even after they've killed H-25-Arthas, they still gem and enchant for stamina and armor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  10. #50
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    Thanks folks, I appreciate the posters who were trying to see this from my perspective, and to those who added a progression point of view as well. For our situation though, we're not talking End Game Progression raiding and gearing levels. I doubt we'll even push through enough of ICC to even attempt some of the bosses. Thats just how our guild is, we're casual and we don't want to get into that progression aspect again. So what I've found as a general concensus is to gear for the content, based on our abilities at our disposal. I'm absolutely blown away by some of the progression tanks stats that I've looked over, but for our standpoint, that's way out of our league :-). I can't even imagine having 45K Health, 32K AC AND 70% Avoidance...thats just monkey business!!

  11. #51
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    Here's the thing though like... progression doesn't necesarrily mean end game, it just means the level you are currently progressing. I'm currently in the same spot with my new priest. I've quit raiding full time and have only really "raided" with my warrior twice to help my old guild when they had some missing tanks and just needed help on a couple bosses. My new guild is really casual and we have to PuG a lot of our spots because we don't even have a full 10M raiding roster.

    However, I still want to be optimal on my priest and I'm even working on a completely separate holy set so that I don't gimp my disc set trying to build a holy set. Putting in a 30 stam gem is the exact same amount of honor or emblems or whatever as a 20 expertise gem. Hybrid gems cost the same amount of honor but less emblems, and gems are USUALLY about the same price on the AH, but results may vary. Putting in a 30 stam gem instead of an expertise gem or whatever takes the exact same amount of effort and if you're casual and don't plan on downing stuff why not go ahead and be optimal? If everyone gears in an optimal fashion it doesn't take that much time and you might kill an extra boss or two rather than hitting the same boss not well geared/enchanting and just calling it quits there every week.

    IMO the only difference between casual and hardxcore is the amount of time hardxcore raiders spend raiding. I have only done PuGs and a few hours at night just running heroics and stuff before I go to bed and already have my priest pretty much decked with very VERY little effort (at least compared to the effort I used to put into my characters). I'd also contend that it might even be more important for casual people to gem/enchant optimally because it gives you more leeway in a casual environment.

    Idk, i guess I just don't buy the argument "I gem expertise because I'm casual even though I know I should gem stam." If you are casual you probably don't even need to do as much TPS if your DPS aren't all star premotion quality 14k+ DPSers.

    45k HP isn't really that hard to hit, neither is 32k AC. My warrior has VERY few pieces from ICC25 normal and zero pieces from ICC25 hardmodes. Most of it is just badge gear and ToC25 gear (granted my shoulders and helm are 258 T9, but I could have just as easily gotten the 251 T10) that really isn't that hard to get ahold of. I haven't gotten an upgrade in like 6 months. Right now my armory is sitting at just over 43k HP and just over 38K armor. If I switch in some trinkets I can get to just under 48k HP and about 34.7k Armor.

    Achieving those kind of stats is NOT out of your league and it will make you so much easier to heal and will help you guys even if you're just really casual.

    Idk... I have 81 hit and 23 expertise and I have zero, absolutely ZERO, problems with threat. AoE threat, single target threat, tricks or not I have no problems holding aggro, I just don't think it matters that much.

    Edit: okay I guess that's not 100% accurate, I had problems with a ret pally with shadowmourne who was pulling off my secondary target that I wasn't focusing my threat on.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 06-28-2010 at 11:43 AM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  12. #52
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    Thanks Aggathon, I should perhaps clarify my postion I guess. You are absolutely correct in your assesment, and I should have just clearly stated that my maximum attainable gear level for my current commitment and raid availability will be Triumph gear and the occasional frost emblem piece. We May get back to the first 6-8 bosses in ICC, but not for some time. This of course does not have anything to do with progression guilds or players and I was not trying to disparage their input or their ideas. Merely stating that I'm about maxed out for my level of gear and it's not on the same level as the other gear, so when making comaprrisons on what to gem/enchant for or what are "accepted" levels of certain stats, I'm basing it on this lower level of gear rather than looking at it from the top teir level.

    Im not sure if your "Expertise" to "Stamina" gemming comment was just to show opposite ends of the spectrum, but I would never gem for straight hit or expertise, although I would occasionally gloss over the option of an Exp/Sta gem IF it made a socket bonus AND it would put me at my 25 Exp (thats just where I personaly like to be, no other reason) and I could swap out something else. I understand that the gear should come with enough avoidance and hit and expertise that we shouldn't need to gem or enchant for it specifically. You guys have been a great help, Tankspot is full of awesome folks that spend a lot of time and effort makign it easier for the casual players, such as myself, gain a better understanding of our classes and our roles., Thanks for everyones hard work !!

  13. #53
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    Okay cool, sorry I think I misinterpreted your last post. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions like that. I just come from a server that has people that are exceptionally bad at the game (was in a VoA10 last night where a DK was doing 885 DPS, I don't care if you just hit 80 885 DPS was bad at 70 pre-3.0, lol) and frequently give the excuse "oh well I don't really care what I gem because I'm casual," and I end up seeing things like 20 parry gems everywhere and gemming setups that look like rainbow bright had a hand in it.

    So ya... I totally misinterpreted what you were saying, sorry about that and thanks for the clarification.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  14. #54
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    After reading through this thread and the others about the topic, ive found myself (as a Dk tank) bringing several tank weaps with me. I have have a shadow's edge I tank with as working the quest, I have a Heroic Claymore for when I need hit and a heroic dw 10 man mace (cant think of the name right now) if I decided I need exp. Do any other DK tanks find themselves doing this?

  15. #55
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    LMFAO ...OMG "gemming setups that look like rainbow bright had a hand in it."...thats classic...I just spewed Pepsi on my monitor when I read that...I am ripping that off totally and un-ashamedly !

  16. #56
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    On a seperate note, I agree Cycloni, I too am finding that the DK is behving as badly as my Warrior (ok not QUITE as bad as my warrior) for having TOOOO much gear in my bags, looking to min/max depending on my situation. My Warrior (bless her little heart, I started her in Beta...ahh those were the days )...has 6 complete full sets of different gear. Thats like 3 bags of gear I lug around so I can switch from my "block" set to my "Avoidance" set to my "Max HP Set" to my "Raid OT" set, to my "Heroic Instance" set...and one DPS set just in case I'm feeling "Choppy Choppy" one day....

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmogg View Post
    I too am finding that the DK is behving as badly as my Warrior (ok not QUITE as bad as my warrior) for having TOOOO much gear in my bags, looking to min/max depending on my situation.
    Man....I have 4.5 bags (22+ slots) FULL of gear for *most* of my sets/specs that I carry around with me at all times. The funny thing is that I really can't even put any of it in the bank because I use EVERY piece just about every day (and many items I use constantly throughout the day). My bank carries the rest of the gear that I don't use quite as often, such as resist gear and most of my block/unhittable set pieces. People are constantly telling me that I'm nuts and I don't need this much gear on me, but the truth is I use ALL of it all the time. I really wish blizz would come out with bags specifically for armor, or at least make the backpack bigger (seriously....it's about damn time)!

    I could leave most of this gear in the bank or simply delete/vendor it, as I don't NEED to use it. If I didn't min/max as much as I do though, I'd lose a lot of interest in the game, or at least in my warrior.

  18. #58
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    152 hit and 21 expertise, i still need to get gear from ICC so i know both should go up. great thread thanks for all the info

  19. #59
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    Re: Expertise, Hit, and your Threat. What it means to all Tanks. (Current for 3.3.3)

    @Gnome

    First, I am in no way qualified to comment on threat problems.
    That being said, let me comment on your threat problem ;D

    Just kidding. As someone who hasn't been mired in theorycrafting or my own tanking philosophy, perhaps my thoughts will help:

    Are your healers struggling to keep you alive? If not then perhaps you should focus less on EH than you currently do. Many of the posts here seem very absolutist to me, as if there is only one correct way of doing things. I submit that different situations require different solutions. Your situation may require a less traditional strategy.

    If you are more than capable of surviving your current raids but can't seem to hold threat, then it seems to me that you should gear/gem/etc for threat a bit more until you find the balance between staying alive and holding threat. Only YOU will be able to find this balance, no matter how many leet tanks tell you how to tank.

    (Sorry leet tanks, I joined this site to learn from you so don't hate me for this post, I just think there is a point where theorycrafting ends and individual situation begins)

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dedic View Post
    (Sorry leet tanks, I joined this site to learn from you so don't hate me for this post, I just think there is a point where theorycrafting ends and individual situation begins)
    On the flip side - the theory-crafting can be seen as setting the target you wish to obtain :-)
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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