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Thread: Expertise, Hit, and your Threat. What it means to all Tanks. (Current for 3.3.3)

  1. #21
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    ^ That, and I also just want to note that the advise I gave you above, roughly followed the subpoints Boda provided. It's kind of like a algorithm.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  2. #22
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    Also another good practice I did not see mentioned was swapping Vigilance targets during a fight. I have Vigilance key bound to left knock on my mouse scroll wheel. When I see someone jump over who my original Vigilance target was off the pull, I hover over their raid frame, right click, and hit my key bind to apply a fresh Vigilance.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  3. #23
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    Personally I love when hunters and back stabbers buff me b4 the pull as it means I'm getting a big boosty on threat and they can go bananas from the get go. There's no shame in getting a leg up as now the buff is 10% some our my guilds dps is kinda on my heels so I've respecced from my original build to a more popular 15/3/53 build that seems to be the best threat build.
    Hit is kinda of "oh well" but I do try for +20 expertise on gear swap rounds and find this is fine.

    On the other subject I am a new poster on tankspot. Been a reader for yonks and would to say thanks for all the amazing posts that with a little time can be found on virtually every subject on wow. So noobies before you ask that mundane question proberly has been answered 10 times already search for it......it's there trust me.
    So long and thanks for all this fish

  4. #24
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    Swapping vig has been something i've learned to do as often during an encounter, mainly I try to start with it on a ranged that I know can pull high threat from the start. I like to do this mainly because in hardmodes i'm not able to burst threat into my target as quickly as I could in normal modes, because i'm spendind some of my first gcds on putting my TC and shout. it might sound petty to some, losing one or two gcds, but it does make a dent in threat. and during the fight if he drops, or its a fight like BQ, and my vig target gets bit i'll switch it around my melee some.

    Another useful tactic is on fights like saurfang or fester gut when you have a tank swap and your not sharing a cleave constantly, when your not tanking intervene the highest dps threat, even if they aren't about to pull agro, it helps them manage their threat a little better, the way I look at intereve is if i'm not using it when I can then its an ability wasted.

  5. #25
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    In addition to Blood Rage I carry a stack of Rage potions to use on fights that I know my opening threat is vital to. Just a little extra insurance that I'll be able to hit the boss with something to generate some threat.
    "A man can learn twice as much from milking a cat as two men can from a very tall fourth man.
    - Mark "Alec Baldwin" Twain

  6. #26
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    I prefer an armor pot personally, pre pot one, and pop another during the fight. Rage is too easy to come by in boss fights imo. Its not rage gen that hinders threat at the opening of a fight, its GCDs on putting up TC and shout that cost me sometimes. Buts its never been a big deal, a little vent communication calling for someone to dump agro with invis is all it takes.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    ^ *buzzing noise* wrong
    1- You're making a mountain out of a molehill. You want numbers? Present some.
    2- Those abilities mentioned are to be used 1 time, on the pull. Afterward they are used properly.
    3- People keep mentioning a magic threshold for EH. Find and present the threshold or gtfo. When does one stop stacking stamina and armor?
    4- Original statement was irrelevant. As was your response.
    5- Tanks don't need anymore damage. If your raid is hitting enrage timers, the DPS classes are f*cking bad.

    Getting kind of sick of the brand new posters who come on here just to argue, and when they do such, they never have anything to back it up. All you posted are opinions, plus a wikipedia (irrelevant) link.
    The hostility does not make more people want to contribute to this community. It was unwarented and unnessecary and you could have handled that response in a better fashion then just cussing the guy out. Oh and the posted link was not irrelevant. Coming to a fals conclusion from inaccurate data is something that does infact happen. Just thought I'd put my two cents in. Since being a new registrant seems to make a me a troll according to this statement, even though I have gone to lengths to add something with the rogue theroycrafting area of this forum. I apologize that I don't have 1000 posts to my name.

    Now back to the actual topic, I do have something I need to ask in relation to this post.

    My tank is a pally, and what I've seen over the past few dozen heroics has me a bit puzzled as to what I'm doing wrong. I have noticed some of the DPS that I run with pull threat off me, but only for a split second and I mean a split second. It's like I loose threat to them for whatever reason, and instantly gain it back without having to taunt.

    Anyone have any input as to why this would be happening? Or is it maybe a lag based or latency issue that I'm not seeing? I'm using x-pearl as my unitframes and it lights up red when ever someone grabs aggro just to let you know.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by damionrayne View Post
    Now back to the actual topic, I do have something I need to ask in relation to this post.

    My tank is a pally, and what I've seen over the past few dozen heroics has me a bit puzzled as to what I'm doing wrong. I have noticed some of the DPS that I run with pull threat off me, but only for a split second and I mean a split second. It's like I loose threat to them for whatever reason, and instantly gain it back without having to taunt.

    Anyone have any input as to why this would be happening? Or is it maybe a lag based or latency issue that I'm not seeing? I'm using x-pearl as my unitframes and it lights up red when ever someone grabs aggro just to let you know.
    Quibble: the link would have been relavent if Boda's entire argument was based on how progression tanks were gearing, but anyways that's just semantics at this point.

    As for you. I suspect strongly that they aren't actually pulling off you and what you're seeing are random target abilities.

    For example when you MT Rotface have you noticed that he turns around even when he doesn't slime spray? (or Grobbulus before him). It's because he's actually retargetting someone randomly to apply the mutated thingie debuff on him.

    I've noticed mobs that saberlash do similar things, they will randomly target someone in front of them to saberlash (stack two tanks up and watch Marrowgar ping pong his targetting between them even if one is on auto-follow).

    A heroic example: Mal'ganis does this when he casts Mind Blast and Sleep, but even bosses/mobs that do instant cast abilites will retarget momentarily.

  9. #29
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    Apart from some off-topic bull-crap about new registrants etc. I think we've covered some good stuff about threat handling and this information plus some additional data should be collected and written down in a post that can be stickied imo.

    I still believe the OT is not really that well put and kind of stating the wrong "facts". I rather see a post where we list solutions to handle threat and what they mean if you sacrifice something else. There are always things to concider and saying you should spec this and glyph that you have to understand that some people want to spec and glyph for something else they find more important (like shorter cooldowns).

    Also, I think everyone has gone spreadsheet/weight crazy the last couple of months. There are so many factor that need to be weighed in, and I think people need to relate more to real world experience rather than math or assumptions made.

    Since I am a new registrant and obviously not skilled enough to make such a post though I will leave it up to someone else. I can however contribute if I am allowed to. Hopefully we can have a proper tank write it that has actually tried things out. Where's Xav and all other old-timers. Have they moved on from FrodoVideoSpot.com, or are they still lurking around?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Quibble: the link would have been relavent if Boda's entire argument was based on how progression tanks were gearing, but anyways that's just semantics at this point.

    As for you. I suspect strongly that they aren't actually pulling off you and what you're seeing are random target abilities.

    For example when you MT Rotface have you noticed that he turns around even when he doesn't slime spray? (or Grobbulus before him). It's because he's actually retargetting someone randomly to apply the mutated thingie debuff on him.

    I've noticed mobs that saberlash do similar things, they will randomly target someone in front of them to saberlash (stack two tanks up and watch Marrowgar ping pong his targetting between them even if one is on auto-follow).

    A heroic example: Mal'ganis does this when he casts Mind Blast and Sleep, but even bosses/mobs that do instant cast abilites will retarget momentarily.

    Ah, well even durning normal trash mob pulls. I still see one of my warlock friends, or even my heals. For that matter, damn near everyone I run with. I manage to get aggro warnings on them a lot, but only for a second. Suppose I should check and make sure it's not those AoE abilities.

    Though Like I said, x-pearl puts a red haze around a target that has goten aggro, when they take damage it's just a straight red line around the pic.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
    Since I am a new registrant and obviously not skilled enough to make such a post though I will leave it up to someone else. I can however contribute if I am allowed to. Hopefully we can have a proper tank write it that has actually tried things out. Where's Xav and all other old-timers. Have they moved on from FrodoVideoSpot.com, or are they still lurking around?
    Me and a couple other guys are workin' on it, but I'm entering the last 4-5 weeks of the semester and I don't know how much time I'll have to go as in depth as I'm wanting to, so hopefully it gets turned out sooner rather than later, but we'll see.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by damionrayne View Post
    The hostility does not make more people want to contribute to this community. It was unwarented and unnessecary and you could have handled that response in a better fashion then just cussing the guy out. Oh and the posted link was not irrelevant. Coming to a fals conclusion from inaccurate data is something that does infact happen. Just thought I'd put my two cents in. Since being a new registrant seems to make a me a troll according to this statement, even though I have gone to lengths to add something with the rogue theroycrafting area of this forum. I apologize that I don't have 1000 posts to my name.
    Sorry you're offended by that. As you can tell if you read it, it's NOT directed toward all new registrants, just the trolls who come in with nothing better to do than argue with 0 backup to their claims (this represents a very minute demographic). The link is irrelevant to the conversation because the originally posted data is correct, tested and true. Your 2 cents are of course welcome and being a new registrant does not make you a troll at all, again it's in the context of my post which it kind of seems like you only glanced over before jumping on me. I don't have 1000 posts either.

    Either way, I edited to target new posters less.
    Last edited by Dreadski; 04-12-2010 at 04:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by damionrayne View Post
    The hostility does not make more people want to contribute to this community. It was unwarented and unnessecary and you could have handled that response in a better fashion then just cussing the guy out. Oh and the posted link was not irrelevant. Coming to a fals conclusion from inaccurate data is something that does infact happen. Just thought I'd put my two cents in. Since being a new registrant seems to make a me a troll according to this statement, even though I have gone to lengths to add something with the rogue theroycrafting area of this forum. I apologize that I don't have 1000 posts to my name.
    Dreador is usually a lot nicer than that despite his title as destroyer of threads but I do understand the reaction since there have been a lot of "troll" posts lately and quite a few about the importance of hit and expertise. It has also been the case of many of those people claiming that many things written here about it and stamina stacking has been written by new registrants and in some cases not in such a nice way.

    I did react a bit to the post as well but can understand it

    And btw I just linked this post on my guilds forums since I feel the part about how important using your abilites properlyis, is something not everyone understands when talking about threat stats for tanks. As an example I just respecced my tank to have even less threat than before and something rediculous like 3.2k AP and still have no issues with threat. Did it to include Improved Icy Talons since we often dont have anyone bringing it in our 10 mans and has worked out well so far. And I'm not in a top raiding guild so I can promise you that threat shouldnt be an issue without the best gear either.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Me and a couple other guys are workin' on it, but I'm entering the last 4-5 weeks of the semester and I don't know how much time I'll have to go as in depth as I'm wanting to, so hopefully it gets turned out sooner rather than later, but we'll see.
    Aye I'm on the job hunt right now so between that and progression raiding my time is limited. Though I will try and start working on some stuff with you guys.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  15. #35
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    I hadn't noticed this thread until it was linked elsewhere, but now that I've seen it, I'll add my 2 cents.

    The first thing to note is that I'm an altoholic. I have lots of 80s. I have 4 tanks as well as a rogue and a hunter. In both roles, the use of misdirect and TotT (on a pull) is something that I expect/or do on a consistent basis.

    When I run the rogue with a guild (haven't for a few weeks), I will setup a TotT rotation with the other rogues, but the first will always go to the tank. With 2t10, using tricks is a net DPS increase for the rogue using it, AND the target receiving it, so after the first it should be given to another DPS (unless threat becomes an issue mid-fight).

    When I run the hunter with a guild, I always use MD on the pull. During the fight if threat seems to be an issue, I will use MD again.

    Using TotT or MD on a pull will never be a DPS loss. The possible DPS loss comes from the loss of the energy provided from 2t10 on the TotT, but is regained through being able to start DPSing at full steam immediately (as well as your fellow DPSers being able to do the same). During a fight, TotT usage is a DPS increase. MD usage during a fight is a small DPS loss (and in a movement heavier fight, will have no effect on DPS).

    Smart play from a hunter and/or a rogue will allow most tanks to effectively "forget" about threat generation.

  16. #36
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    That's a great perspective, Volador. Thanks for posting it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  17. #37
    To avoid looking like a random troll, Iíll introduce myself. Iím Winterburn and Iím a tankoholic. Well, not really, Iím just fooling around.

    Thereís a grain of truth to saying that gemming with threat stats wonít make a drastic improvement in threat output, thus, it effectively makes stamina gemming the best and only option. However, threat generation is effected by the playstyle and overall performance of the tank, and even more so for DKs, whom Blizzard hates so much that they made DKs cope with the rune system. This is a pretty valid reason to look for other stats in gear or gems.

    While expertise seems to be pretty worthless for ICC, since parry-haste is gone and pretty much every other DKís white attack is a Rune Strike, I find hit cap to be pretty attractive. With the basic opening strategy (DnD, IT, PS, Pest) it is pretty vital that all the hits land on the target, preferably without the need to wait for a GCD to reapply the missed Plague Strike and hit Blood Tap for another Pestilence if the previous one went off already.

    This is even more prominent in the middle of the fight, when you have to keep up diseases, pick up adds, watch health to pop CDs, and rain Ob/HB/FS/BS/BB all depending on procs, runes, RP, disease count downs, and current battlefield conditions. You might call me lacking, but all this does seem like a whole lot to me.

    Moreover, even though I have IceHUD displaying my runes, health, and RP right around my sorry ass and TMW among other things shows diseases on my target in huge icons right under my nose, I still manage to mess up in high stress situations. At times itís just too much to watch out for and react instantly at the same time. Every time you screw up you get even more stressed, since now you have to make up a plan to get everything back to normal without wasting GCDs and runes.

    And if itís not your only problem at the moment (letís face it, dps sometimes go over the threat meter, attacking the wrong target, and healers some times get silenced or just donít react on time, so itís not all about us tanks), guess what? If you donít do a good enough job (or a plain feat of hitting and clicking the exactly right thing at the exactly right time) at the very least your threat goes down. Or DPS dieÖ or healersÖ or yourself. All of which can make things really ugly.

    In the light of all this I would say hit cap is pretty crucial for DK tanking, and not totally worthless either for threat or survival. So the approach for gemming and gear selection should be still weighted and pretty well personal for each player and class, instead of just going ďZOMG! JUSTGEMSTAMINAEVERYWHERE!Ē

    P.S. Just a short afterword.
    If you, the hypothetical reader, believe that DKs should not by any means tank, dps or even exist or that they are so pathetic and people playing them are so dumb and hopeless that they shouldnít even be taken into account, donít waste you time arguing about it, I just wonít bite. By the way, I still remember almost same talk going on about paly tanks in BC, which makes it even more hilarious to hear stuff like that from them now. I mean, I donít let stereotypes get in the way of my better judgment and say bad thing about pallies, even though most of them are pretty lousy healersÖ
    Tam armis quam ingenio

  18. #38
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    hey i am a dk tank i have tanking icc10 man easy with low gearscore and stuff i need help heres my link and

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...arlord&gn=Boom

    here if u have advise here email this adress joshcowboys@aim.com

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by killwarlord View Post
    hey i am a dk tank i have tanking icc10 man easy with low gearscore and stuff i need help heres my link and

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...arlord&gn=Boom

    here if u have advise here email this adress joshcowboys@aim.com
    Please post a new thread in the HALP! forum if you need specific questions answered about your armory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volador View Post
    Using TotT or MD on a pull will never be a DPS loss. The possible DPS loss comes from the loss of the energy provided from 2t10 on the TotT, but is regained through being able to start DPSing at full steam immediately (as well as your fellow DPSers being able to do the same).
    It's true that a TotT on a tank will not affect DPS in any meaningful way, but just like self used Hysteria is a waste of a CD so is TotT to a tank from a DPS perspective. To maximize dps you'd put it on someone who already had high dps for the 10% buff, to keep said dps alive you use it on the tank. :P


    To answer the previous debate on EH ceiling, it does exist, just not in any meaningful way. We were past the EH ceiling for Naxx when we were in Naxx. That's why tanks were swapping out survival gear for dps trinkets etc on Patchwerk. They weren't worried about it. It was an easy fight and the EH ceiling was fairly low for them.

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