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Thread: Expertise, Hit, and your Threat. What it means to all Tanks. (Current for 3.3.3)

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    Expertise, Hit, and your Threat. What it means to all Tanks. (Current for 3.3.3)

    The facts about Expertise and Hit in the current game.

    Look its not that Expertise and Hit do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

    How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
    1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
    2) Spec and Glyphs.
    3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
    4) 26 Expertise Skill.
    5) Hit rating.

    So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
    Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

    If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2.




    Please sticky and attach strobe light. If this belongs in a better forum for a sticky please move. Thank you.
    Last edited by Bodasafa; 04-09-2010 at 02:35 PM.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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    +1, I think I'm going to buckle down at some point this weekend and do my "why you do what you do" post, and I'll definitely expand on this and give more reasoning behind it, but overall this is 100% correct.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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    I just hope people read it and stop posting threads about it. At least if it gets stickied we'll have a quick reference point to "let me google that for you".
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Thanks Boda, and if you want some help Agg I can try to do what I can... but I may be tracking drums for a session all weekend, so we'll see.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa
    Look its not that Expertise and Hit do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize. (1)

    How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
    (...)
    3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD. (2)
    (...)

    So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
    Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. (3)
    (...)
    There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. (4)

    If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2. (5)
    (1) Mentioning "scale" implies "comparison". And for a comparison one needs numbers. No numbers, no conclusion(s).
    (2) The usage of external (especially TotT) or internal (Hysteria) abilities is not there to mask the tank's inability to generate enough output. When used on/by tanks, these tools only lead to a net rDPS loss.
    (3) EH is inherently a threshold metric. Past a certain encounter's EH thresholds, stacking Stamina is rightfully inappropriate.
    (4) As appealing as it may be, an ipse dixit is still a defective induction.
    (5) The threat output is also a threshold metric. Given enough threat, what tanks will want is more damage.

    Unsupported claims shouldn't be mistaken for facts.

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    ^ *buzzing noise* wrong
    1- You're making a mountain out of a molehill. You want numbers? Present some.
    2- Those abilities mentioned are to be used 1 time, on the pull. Afterward they are used properly.
    3- People keep mentioning a magic threshold for EH. Find and present the threshold or gtfo. When does one stop stacking stamina and armor?
    4- Original statement was irrelevant. As was your response.
    5- Tanks don't need anymore damage. If your raid is hitting enrage timers, the DPS classes are bad.

    All you posted are opinions, plus a wikipedia (irrelevant) link. One would hope that a new registrant hoping to argue would want to post some kind of back up for their claims, which are pretty heavy-handed and lacking any kind of evidence, where as the information in the original post is heavily tested by tanks in the best guilds in the world, and true.
    Last edited by Dreadski; 04-12-2010 at 04:22 AM. Reason: Edited to sound like less of a jerk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    ^ *buzzing noise* wrong
    1- You're making a mountain out of a molehill. You want numbers? Present some.
    2- Those abilities mentioned are to be used 1 time, on the pull. Afterward they are used properly.
    3- People keep mentioning a magic threshold for EH. Find and present the threshold or gtfo. When does one stop stacking stamina and armor?
    4- Original statement was irrelevant. As was your response.
    5- Tanks don't need anymore damage. If your raid is hitting enrage timers, the DPS classes are f*cking bad.

    Getting kind of sick of the brand new posters who come on here just to argue, and when they do such, they never have anything to back it up. All you posted are opinions, plus a wikipedia (irrelevant) link.
    Gotta agree with this.

    I run with 13 expertise and 92 hit rating. I'll swap some gear to cap taunt hit if it's a fight that needs it, but otherwise, I effectively ignore non-survival stats. I don't avoid them, but I'll only take them if they come packaged on max EH gear.

    There really isn't an "EH threshold" like there was in BC, particularly in ICC heroic. Outgearing a fight is something totally different. Doing normal mode fester? Sure, I'll swap out some survival gear and try to get a sweet World of Logs record. But that's because our whole raid outgears the encounter, not because I hit some magical threshold. There's no point where you win a ring and say "F*ck yeah, I don't have to worry about maximizing survival anymore!"

    Dead tanks are the #1 loss of raid DPS.

    EDIT: Forgot to say that I also have zero threat problems, with or without tricks/MD (although tricks/MD should be used on the pull!). Every class is given the needed tools to hold threat via glyphs/talents/abilities.

    People seem to value threat stats as though you'd miss every single attack without expertise and hit.
    Last edited by Papapaint; 04-10-2010 at 10:46 AM.

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    Also, the assumption that tricks/MD on the tank (ESPECIALLY on the pull) is a net rDPS loss is actually false. Because of the usage of those abilities, a tank can get a massive lead from the start and it allows DPS to be able to go balls to the walls DPS immediately resulting in a net rDPS INCREASE. If a tricks or MD is not used and someone gets a lucky crit and the tank gets an unlucky parry (something that CAN happen in ICC regardless of gear because there is simply not enough expertise on gear to go for the parry hard cap, it would be stupid to do) and that DPS dies, then that DPS does zero DPS for the rest of the encounter, but if an MD or tricks had happened, then the DPSer wouldn't have died, resulting again, in a net DPS increase.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Getting kind of sick of the brand new posters who come on here just to argue, and when they do such, they never have anything to back it up.
    This.

    The active community members that answer questions here day in and day out are becoming just a bit tired of the uniformed nonsense new registrants are posting. It becomes hard for us to tell if were just getting trolled or if someone is genuinely misinformed and needs help. In either case the active community members will respond discrediting these false posts so that others do not become confused about the facts.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we respect that here. But publish nonsense and we will call you on it.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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    I do think we should make a distinction between "new registrants" and trolls. Just because they are a new registrant we shouldn't automatically lump them into an "us vs. them" category and cause people to shy away from posting lest those of us that have thousands of posts descend upon them like locusts, but I do agree that it is frustrating and sometimes hard for us to tell if we're getting trolled or not. We were all new registrants at some point (minus the creators obviously) and we've all been wrong, even me =P, and I've accepted it when called out on it.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

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    By the way, New registrants may be long time readers
    As far as the thread is concerned, i have always dodged the Taunt Glyph, in order to prevent miss taunt from causing wipe i'm just using Vigilance on the current mt, buffing him shortly before i need to taunt.
    Last edited by Babibele; 04-10-2010 at 03:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babibele View Post
    By the way, New registrants may be long time readers
    As far as the thread is concerned, i have always dodged the Taunt Glyph, in order to prevent miss taunt from causing wipe i'm just using Vigilance on the current mt, buffing him shortly before i need to taunt.
    Tried that one, doesn't work great on heroic saurfang or taunting at 9 stacks on festergut. Plus many tanks hawk for the buff and click it off or macro a cancelaura into their abilities. The taunt glyph is very valuable and serves its purpose very well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I do think we should make a distinction between "new registrants" and trolls. Just because they are a new registrant we shouldn't automatically lump them into an "us vs. them" category and cause people to shy away from posting lest those of us that have thousands of posts descend upon them like locusts, but I do agree that it is frustrating and sometimes hard for us to tell if we're getting trolled or not. We were all new registrants at some point (minus the creators obviously) and we've all been wrong, even me =P, and I've accepted it when called out on it.

    Oh I agree fully, and I welcome argument and discussion. This is a message board after all, and one that is home to much theory crafting. But coming here and flat out trying to invalidate something that's proven with opinions and then not even backing up....come on. WoW forums ------> that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    I have actually been bringing this up internally withing my guild; stating that I do have a problem with threat. This does not warrant me as a bad tank though, it's just that they are outgearing me everytime Blizzard extends the ICC buff, and as DPS gets more gear. I do realize however that it in most cases it is the DPS's fault since they should back the F off if they are close to overaggroing me. Anyways, before you start writing me off as a "bad" tank or what not let me explain, and provide you with some examples.

    Lets use the list Boda posted as base. Threat is mostly a problem, for me at least, in the beginning of the fight or whenever you are tanking something that does not hit you enough (or off-tanking non-cleave bosses). Lets say I am about to pull. Since I got T10 4-piece I dont want to pop Bloodrage and waste my 2nd last stand. I will however use charge so initial rage should be sorted. Before it, or after if well timed, I will pop Shield Block to start out with a heavy hitting Shield Slam and then start spamming HS and Devastate to proc Shield Slam, whenever Revenge is up I will use that aswell. Lets say I miss any of these hits though in the very beginning of the fight, I will instantly be low on threat. My DPS don't hold back, I usually get MD and TotT but not always and sometimes mid fight I don't have that on me. Shambler tanking comes to mind where the Rogues shifted TotT to themselves and they run to our camps and silence/kill the rest of the raid (not that serious but yeah, you get the picture). Anyways, what can I do to prevent this?

    Boda suggests me using my abilities in a different manor, how exactly? Shockwave, that can now miss and goes off of spellhit - no thanks. Concussive Blow, nerfed and not so glorious anymore. Thunderclap is more of a defensive ability in my mind and I usually squeeze in that debuff later in the cycle. I guess I can stance switch before the pull and use Arms and Fury cooldowns but doing that mid-fight is risky loosing out on alot of rage. What more? Mocking Blow maybe... only thing I can think of.

    As for spec and glyphs. I know there are some threat generating glyphs out there but speaking of the importance of surviving as some of the posters above me has mentioned it's hard for me to give up shorter Last Stand and especially Sheild Wall. Replacing them with Devastate, Vigilance and Blocking glyphs is an option for going full out on threat but is that really what people do? I don't think so, and wouldn't sacrificing a few stamina points into some gear with expertise or hit help out enough for you to have the glyphs you actually want to have (at least I enjoy popping a cooldown to buy some time for healers to focus raid or another tank). I got the "threat-spec" already.

    Number three yes, If I could stick the hunters and rogues on me to always do that I guess that would do alot. But it doesn't always happen and in 10 mans you are limited to what classes you bring.

    Then we got expertise, not a whole lot of gear with it. I might get some from weapon, some from boots. Then what, T10 legs loosing my Pillars... Or Cataclysmic Chest and T10 legs, that's alot fo gear to replace just for expertise. But, I think that would actually help out alot. Hit gear is pretty easy to come by. I've tried out hit capping myself for the last couple of raids and I did notice and improvement but not really comfortably gluing bosses on me.

    Now, in the gear I was running some time ago I have basically ~50 hit and like 2 expertise. Now I got around 13 expertise and am hit capped. Using Devastate glyph and threat spec. Always Vigilancing a hunter in our raid who likes check his Recount rather than Omen.

    I don't know, might just be me but what I got used to in Ulduar and TotCG is in no way near what I am experiencing now. I want to hold mobs myself and not rely on having 3 rogues in the raid cycling TotT on me.

    If you want to noobify me and inspect me in detail here is my armory: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...r&n=Gnomaholic and here's a random log: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-de.../1/?enc=bosses

    Also, I want to clarify that tanking, for me, isn't all about numbers (threat hunting). It's about keeping the raid alive, Intercepting, saving and outsmarting the content to aid our progress. So I do sometimes use abilities that are of the sort that does not generate threat. Debuffing and running around alot at times. Sorry for the wall o' text, just wanted to try to explain where I stand in this and why it's a problem for me without me actually being a bad tank. I suck at keeping it short, mkai?

    Oh yeah, on last thing. I do apreciate people trying to clarify things of interest and helping new tanks out but I don't like posts that are pretty much FotM-ish do this and there is no other way. I mean, back you statements up and please provide at least some information of how you came to the conclusion and what other aspects you've concidered. I see to many guides being made stating truths based on other threads (sometimes old) and seeing to little real world example. To all who says "I have no problem at all with threat ever" I just doubt that... seriously, either you are stacked in number 4 and 5 in the list or have a battery of TotT/MD's or really really bad DPS.
    Last edited by Gnome; 04-10-2010 at 04:45 PM.

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    @Gnomeaholic--

    You can check my armory at http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...is&cn=Drypaint and see the gear/spec/glyphs I use on a majority of fights, although I swap out glyphs regularly. My guild is currently progressing through heroic ICC, so you can rest assured that I'm not running with "really really bad DPS." My current gear has me at 87 hit rating (which, I mentioned earlier, I swap to cap my taunt on fights that need it) and 13 expertise including talents.

    I do not have threat problems. We have one rogue who--in addition to being our top DPS--will spend his tricks on the tank any time tank threat seems to drop low.

    Shockwave is a ranged attack and does not work off of spell hit, as far as I'm aware. Thunderclap as well--someone can confirm/deny that for me if they know for sure.

    You say that you "sometimes" get MD at the start of a fight. This, to me, suggests that you're running with sub-par hunters. There is no downside to MD'ing the tank at the start of a fight. I also do LK add duty, and this is one fight where I swap gear to cap my hit, so I never miss a pickup on any of the shamblers/ghouls. I do the same thing in 10 man without a hunter or rogue to MD, tricks, or dispel enrages, meaning I'm managing cooldowns at the same time. I do vigilance the MT for unlimited taunts, but I'm not aware of any class in the game that has trouble with single target threat.

    If you have to find that you need to swap gear to maintain threat, this is your perogative. However, your #1 job as a tank is to stay alive. Many tanks--including myself--are capable of holding threat without any "threat stats" on their gear, simply because the tools given to us are strong enough, when executed properly with a cooperative raid.

    I suggest making sure that you 'always' get MD/TotT at the start of a fight, and stop complaining that you can't hold threat against DPSers who go balls to the wall and ignore your threat. Raiding involves working together, so that hunter needs to stop looking at recount. Your rogues need to stop having their TotT orgy at the start of a fight, and allow you to establish a solid aggro lead. The problems you're describing are not problems of gearing, but problems of zero cooperation from raid members.

    Best of luck in the future!

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    I don't really know. I mean you have great gear and your spec is in line. You should be more than capable of putting at at least ~12k TPS without tricks or MD anyway, the only thing you want is a solid lead off the bat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    ^ definitely what almighty said. And yes, I am pretty sure that both shockwave and tclap work off of ranged hit, not the spell hit cap.

    @Gnomeaholic Imo, the only possible trouble given your current gear setup is lack of expertise. You have very low expertise at 11, and for me, that would drop far below my personal comfort zone, but not enough to change gear around.

    I will say though that I think gaunlets of the kraken and cataclysmic chestguard are better than the 264 T10 pieces, but definitely not better than the 277 T10 pieces, and I would personally gear for those first.

    If I were you, I would change all of my 10+dodge/15+stam gems into +10 exp/+15 stam gems and hit the 9 stam socket bonus in your belt. The difference in dodge will be very small and overall negligible in raids and I think you'll get far more out of the expertise you will gain. Expertise is twice as effective as hit since it reduces both dodge and parry, you will see better threat returns from expertise than you will for parry, so if you go for something, go for expertise softcap of 26, or at least close to it and use expertise food. I would also suggest picking up the expertise boots off of VDW as soon as you can, though I realize that's up to the loot randomizer to decide =P.

    Also: Mocking blow is an extremely powerful too and is often underrated. I highly suggest reading http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...t=Mocking+Blow

    I hope this helps, also who you vigilance can help a lot. And as far as vigilancing the other tank and not using glyph of taunt? I've definitely done that when I've forgotten to empty my drool cup and don't switch glyphs for taunt fights, and frankly... it works wonders and is just as good as having a taunt glyph, imo.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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    @Gnome, I'm guessing your problem lies somewhere with your DPSers.

    Your rotation sounds fine. Your gear is identical to those who don't have your problems. And your spec I'm sure is fine. That pretty much boils the cause of your issues to something the dps are doing.

    My guess is bad hunters and rogues. Or someone is popping all their cools and unloading before you've even hit the boss and then just riding you from there.
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    Yeah well, I will do that. Pray to God I get the boots and can shift some gear out soon.

    The Vigilance thing replacing sound interesting, but it might be a bit risky on Saurfang. I've niticed it doesn't refresh asap and having a few blows to much on marked tank might be a not so hot thing. Ill try working in Mocking Blow a bit more, should get me a lead in the beginning, just need to magically get a couple of new buttons close to my wasd-keys.

    Regarding Kraken and Cataclysmic, won't go there. I might try T10 legs out soon to cap expertise and then I might aswell try chest or kraken out. But still need Emblems though.

    Anyways, just wanted to point out that it isn't as clear cut as Boda states it. I mean, different things affect threat and generalizing it to a freaking priority list just seems odd to me. I would say that expertise is still the highest priority stat for threat, then there are a numerous things you can do before stacking it to see if it helps out but if you do everything right then all you can go for is gear or possible spec/glyph changes.

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    You got some good advise in the responses above.

    I would only further add that blood rage is on a 1 min CD. You can safely use it just before the pull to fill your rage and allow you to front load your threat without issue. There should be no problems 45 sec into any fight you need that large a CD for in my opinion.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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