how important are shield to a pally tank?
Ive got the shield from reg HoR
im wondering if i should try and farm one from ToC10/25 or something before i commit to tanking Icc(off tank for now) as far as other gear upgrades go where is a tank cape higher than 219? i havent found one except from emblems others capes i seem to sacrifice a stat for a different one. i'm planning on buying the frost one but i do not know if i should swap Icks thumb for the skeleton key first since its a huge upgrade or go for the cape..
Also since there is a 20% reduction in dodge should i change dodge gems to parry/block gems to emphasize that more in Icc?
Thanks in advance
I'm wondering the first part of the question myself. As for the rest:
The badge cloak is AMAZING. It's a beautiful piece. Personally i'd get that first but ick's is a horrible trinket. I'd go with the Glyph + Black Heart trinkets and get the cape, then farm for the Key.
As for gemming, the way to defeat the 20% dodge debuff is to get more dodge, not change to inferior gemming. But seek that dodge/parry on gear not gemslots. You should have minimal to no dod/stam gems anyway - you only need 1 to activate your meta and the rest is 99% better off with a full stam gem in place.
A shield? Yes its totally worth farming ToC for an upgrade, its not only a stat stick but offers more armor and block beside they look cool
Gems, lots of info floating around on gems, never gem parry! If you are looking to add to a red slot to hit your meta bonus, I'd go with the AGI/STAM in the red. It offers dodge, armor and crit. The rest, I'd go with pure stam.
The badge cape is an amazing upgrade for just about anyone.
1. Badge cloak = cool, but it's not anywhere near the upgrade the chest or hands are going from 245s to the emblem 264s. The cloak is/near BiS, but that doesn't make it the top priority to get. Look at your gear, but I'm guessing the Belt, Chest, and Glove emblem pieces (or Tier pieces if you're going that way) will offer you more armor, more stamina, and more stats than the cloak.
Remember, BiS =/= best available upgrade.
2. Gem Sta unless you have a +9 or better sta bonus per hybrid, then go with +agi/+sta for Reds. Don't know what you'd use for yellows.
You're not going to make up the avoidance you lost. You're just not. Trying to chase it will lead to bad gear decisions. Instead focus on armor/sta so each hit hits for less and for a smaller portion of your HP pool. ICC is designed so the tanks take more hits, gearing choices should be made with this in mind.
As long as you have 20.01% or greater dodge, dodge will still give you more bang for your buck than parry... Even with the -20%, as long as you have more to start with than the debuff takes away, Dodge will be the best avoidance stat when choosing between dodge/parry/block.
People get too caught up in the debuff hitting dodge and think that dodge must suck in ICC. No. If dodge is > Parry/block per point out of ICC, it doesn't lose this advantage in ICC. They just limit the amount of it you have.
I disagree. The badge cloak is one of the best upgrades for frost emblems. His cloak upgrade is much better than the upgrade from i245 to i264. In addition, it's much cheaper.
Originally Posted by Loganisis
You mentioned chest and hands i264. Well, to upgrade the chest you would need 95 emblems and a Mark. That is no easy task. Also, the 95 emblem Cata Chest is a very remarkable chest for just badges. In addition, spending 60 emblems and a mark to get your gloves is not a great idea because you can get the 60 emblem Kraken gloves and/or get the glove drop from VOA25.
Get the Cloak or Belt 1st. Then move on to the trinket.
The cloak, over a 219 cloak, gives you something like 500 armor and 30 sta (less armor and more sta if you were still using the 213 Naxx cloak with 500 armor). Cataclysmic over White Knight gives something like 1300 armor and 50 sta if I recall correctly. Chest wins. Chest wins.
Originally Posted by Trademark
(belt and hands are roughly the same benefit or more than the chest is you have been unlucky with drops and only have the 232 and 226 emblem hands/belt) Those three (Chest, Hands, Waist) offer more armor and sta than the cloak upgrade unless you've got lucky with 25m ToC drops, and the chest unless you've got HM drops.
That's pretty much the end of the discussion - Cata, Kraken, and Vergis are worth roughly 2x what the cloak is worth in terms of upgraded Armor/Sta.
The only time that doesn't end the discussion is if the player already has better than Triumph items in those slots. Then the cloak may offer a better upgrade. But without an armory link, and the fact that the question about upgrading is coming in April after frosts were introduced in December, and he's asking about a shield before entering into ICC leads me to believe that he's most likely sporting triumph gear.
The cost is irrelvent - you're going to end up needing the same amount of emblems, if you get all emblem gear, whichever way you go. The difference between 60 and 95 is roughly 1 week (7x2 =14, weekly =5 for a total 19/35, 1st wing + valkier at ICC10 and ICC25 = 9each for another 18 for 37/35). It's pretty easy to get into a pug for 10 or 25 and get through the first wing of ICC - it's Rot/Fester where the pugs fall apart.
So getting the more expensive chest first you 'lose' a week with the benefits of the cloak, but since Cataclysmic over White Knight is almost 2x as good as the benefits of the emblem cloak over the 213/219 cloaks the following weeks needed to gain the emblems for the gloves, belt, and then cloak are that much easier.
The cloak is a great upgrade. But it's not nearly as a good of an upgrade as chest/hands/belts in most situations now. Maybe at the beginning when the guys getting the upgrades were the guys that had completed ToC25 HM the cloak was the best option. But the cloak is not the best option now.
I was referencing the Kraken gloves - I default to emblem because as a warrior 2 of the Tier Chest/Gloves/Legs are "get them last" items, and then for sanctification only.
Anyone that says "Well just get them from the drop" is either A) Incredibly lucky with drops or B) far better than the average player who's looking for frost upgrade advice right now because they've been near/at end patch content every time and have seen VoA25 a dozen times.
Emblems = sure thing. Drops = RNG - as a tank you should know which one is prefrred Its why sta/armor are preferred over dodge/parry.
For your more casual player, drops are not guaranteed. If they were, I'd have NES and a hilt. I've not even seen either. I will never consider drops in my gearing plan. Never (okay not never, just to the point that only upgrades are drops).
Last edited by Loganisis; 04-08-2010 at 10:04 AM.
Oh, and sorry, back to the title question - I tanked up to Fester/Rot with Skull of Ruin. The ToC shield would be very nice, but is not required for at least the first wing of ICC if you have other appropriate gear. Maybe the need is greater for a Pally, but I don't think so since our Pally was running with Arilya's Sheildbreaker in ICC and is doing better than I. He sure as hell wants neverending winter though
Here is the comparison between the i219 and the cloak.
Originally Posted by Loganisis
It's simply more than the "500 armor and 30 sta" you suggested. It's 65 stam (30 from the socket), 31 str, 582 armor, 14 defense, 17 dodge, at the loss of 27 parry.
Here is the comparison between the BofWK and the Cata Chestguard.
You'll see that you will gain expertise (threat) and defense (dodge/parry), while losing Dodge and Parry. You will gain 39 stam, 20 str and 1344 armor. In comparison with the other comparison, you will gain ~700 armor while losing 26 stam.
Is the edge as clear cut as you say it is? I don't think so. Personally, I think spending 60 badges on the cloak if you're rocking the i219 cloak or i213 cloak is a better choice because it is ~37% cheaper too. An upgrade now is better than an upgrade a few weeks from now
Those other stat gains, they are not very signficant when you look at the big picture rather than the specific itemization choices. The big increase in def counteracts some of the loss of dodge/parry, so you're 'losing' roughly 1 to 1.5 avoids per every 100 swings while gaining 500 armor for the that swing that you're no longer avoiding, plus 500 armor for the other 70 or so swings that the small amount of lost avoidance wouldn't have impacted.
Look at it this way - you're getting hit by 20 hits out of 100 more often in ICC than outside - dodge/parry is nice, but extra damage reduction on those 20 hits (or 21/21.5 if you count the opportunity cost of Cata versus White Knight) outweighs those 'other' stats.
So it's almost purely an armor versus sta question, and the 762 armor vs 41 sta. Cata's sta equivlent is in the 60s. Cata is better.
Again, the cost is irrelevent. You're going to be upgrading both. So you reach the finish line at the same time. The question is which one gets you there with fewer wipes. Cata costs more, but gives you more EH. Cata wins. It really is something like a week plus a little (depending on when your 'week' starts) to get cata over the cloak. If you do the first wing of ICC, VoA, dailies, and the weekly, it will take you roughly 4 weeks to get them both if you have 0 Frosties to start (if you don't run them all, then the time it takes will be expanded linearlly, so 3 weeks is a good enough gauge. It doesn't matter what you run, the opportunity cost is the same.
If you go for the cloak, you'll have the cloak in the middle of week 2. Cata 2.5 weeks later.
If you go for Cata, you'll have it early in third week, the cloak nearly 2 weeks later.
The week or so that you have the cloak before you'd have cata means you're giving up 2 weeks of having the greater benefits of Cata before you end up with both. It's essentially 3 weeks of a comparitively lesser upgrade or 2 weeks of the greater upgrade, before you have both upgrades. Given that the first wing of ICC has become fairly routine, you don't really need either upgrade to accomplish this in 4 weeks, but Cata would make it smoother, on balance.
That being said - if you have stock gear, I still think the order would be Kraken, Cata/Vergis, then re-evaluate.
I don't want you to think I'm trivilzing avoidance. Avoidance is still very useful, but baseline, there's already going to be 20 extra hits out of 100 (on average) in ICC rather than outside of it. Armor/Sta gains are more important than that 20 becoming 21. Over the course of a boss fight, that 1 extra hit could result in a wipe, of course the lack of extra EH could also.
It might end up just being a personal choice, but I see benefits of Cata to be clearly better than the cloak and the cost to be a non-issue. If there were more gear fights like FL or Magaloys, that might be different, but for ICC I see at least 3 upgrades (and possibly the trinket) that are more valuable than the cloak if you don't already have drops that are better than emblem gear from ICC or ToGC - which if you're just starting to upgrade frosties, you are unlikely to have.
I disagree completely. As long as you don't *have* to have a compartively smaller upgrade now, getting the better upgrade first (even if it takes a little longer) will make it easier to get all upgrades later.
Originally Posted by Trademark
Cata makes it easier than the cloak and I'll trade 2 weeks with cata for 3 weeks with the cloak in most cases. The only time I wouldn't is if your guild is *this* close to getting down fester/rot and the cloak will help you this week. If the cloak makes a difference in that case, I would - but if you're just starting ICC, that's not the case.
I do think cost matters. I do agree with gearing based on EH, but I don't think it's good to ignore costs and avoidance completely.
I simply had to reply because you were giving misinformation about the amount of armor and stamina (and avoidance) upgrade on the cloak. I included the comparison links, so anyone can have a look and decide for themselves.
Yes, farm TOC as well, but that shield should not bar you from going into ICC. A good one drops off the 3rd encounter in there anyway.
Originally Posted by Tengenstein
True- and completely unintentional, thats what happens when you delete the excel file you had set up to look at all the itemization differences between options - you have to rely on your memory, which isn't always accurate.
Originally Posted by Trademark
As for the cost - I guess it's just a personal preference thing. I'd prefer to have 1X for 2W than .8X for 3W when you have 1.8x at 4W. If the timeframe were longer, like it was back in December where your casual player didn't have realistic access to ICC to now when most players who put some effort into it can run ICC25 first wing, the time difference isn't that much, so going with the better upgrade that might take a slight bit longer makes more sense to me.
I don't have a pally but I have a warrior alt and have been stuck with the Maly10 shield for about a year now. I have done ToC10/25 so many times my eyes bleed and havn't gotten either shield. That being said I have tanked ICC 10 through blood princes including putricide and ICC25 through rotface and done fine. A shield is a very important item but if your other gear is up to par don't worry about going into ICC with a ilvl 219 shield.
I tanked ICC 10 first wing on my pally with the 219 cloak and the 219 HoR shield (and rock'in the blue Essence of Gossamer) and I had no issues. Frankly, I think the emblem cloak is a first tank upgrade followed by the belt then the trinket. Also, Neverending Winter drops almost every time off the the Gunship battle so you'll upgrade the Splintered Citadel door quickly.
The fact that you still have a queue time for doing normal HoR has deterred me from running it though I will have to get the shield eventually. I think Blizzard made a mistake not putting in another badge shield upgrade which is really overdue.
Logan, fair enough. I can see what you're saying, and it sort of just comes down to preference. The chestguard does has the best stats (it is aptly named, because it will last you until the next exp). Personally, my upgrade path was to hit all the 60 badge upgrades before I moved on to the 95 ones. Cloak > Belt > Trinket > Gloves > Shoulders > Chest > Helm > Libram.
Bling, I agree. I was lucky enough to get the shield out of HoR, but there was no way I was going to continue to try for the i219 cloak in there. I was also lucky enough to get the shield off Gunship rather quickly, but I was terribly obsessed with only having the i219 shield...it just looked really ugly in comparison. I would have been really happy if they added a i232 shield in the H ICC 5 mans or through badges. But, I think some of that is intentional by Blizzard (carrot on the stick).