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Thread: The Effectiveness of Effective Health

  1. #1
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    cbf

    ez
    Last edited by Strongbeans; 04-07-2010 at 08:37 AM. Reason: cbf

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    First!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  3. #3
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    I appreciate the sentiment, but there are a couple little tweaks to be added.

    Effective Health can be applied to any sort of damage but you have to make sure you only apply the proper sorts of damage reduction.

    Health is compounded with Stance/Buff damage reductions and Armor against physical damage.
    Health is compounded with Stance/Buff damage reductions and Resistance against magical damage.

    The model is a single metric for survival with an accent on 100% reliable, predictable, and unalterable. The reason Avoidance is excluded is because it is a hit or miss value, literally. When it hits it is worth 100% damage reduction, and when it misses it is worth 0% reduction. You can generalize that in a large enough sample size it will average out that 1% avoidance will be the same as 1% damage reduction, but on the microsample, or any small situation, short time span, or specific exchange you cannot be sure it will play a specific effect. Because of that you cannot include it in this specific metric. I do agree though that people foolishly equate this function to mean that avoidance is a poor value, or not worth your attention.

    There isn't a problem with only looking at physical damage concerns as that will, in the vast majority of encounters, represent 70-100% of the damage taken, and you don't have much by way of tools to counter the other portion (in fights where it is a larger portion you start seeing tanks using some resistance gear), beyond the standard issue talents (most class/specs get 6% magic damage reduction, DKs get some other toys with Frost and Unholy).

    There also isn't a problem with time-to-live, so long as you appreciate the specification that it is how long you can survive without heals. It is a meaningful metric, not the whole picture. If you are going into a tank busting fight it can be meaningful that you have a 2.8 sec time to live because that means if there is a off-timing on heals there is still time for a reactionary big-bomb heal to save you.

    I do like your rules, I need to re-read and digest them a bit. =)
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    Now, you take a look at the guilds that are killing LK HEROIC 25 man (that would be Paragon) and the other guilds that are on heroic 25 man LK (Premo, Ensidia, ETC.) and go ask them. Now thank you for posting, and starting a new argument of EH vs avoidance...can't wait for the lock, you are wrong on so many levels. Threat is ignored? No one's ignoring threat, well maybe in your guild you're needing to have the hunters feign...okay.

    Another point I want to pick apart is what you said about stam-stacking tanks being manasinks....since when in the entire expansion are healers going oom? I'll tell you when, world first Yogg0, world first 25 tribute to insanity, etc. When they do not overgear the encounter. That's about it.

    For your suggestions:
    1- what's the arbitrary number you have in mind? You can't make this argument without providing the magic number.
    2- okay, that's why Blizz does not allow you to put miscolored gems in sockets. I'm terribly sorry I missed the 4 parry rating gem bonus.
    3- trust me, the healers don't notice. the best healers don't notice, and if YOUR healers are telling you they noticed, they are lying. healing a tank in a raid environment is done proactively, not reactively, canceling heals and hoping the tank avoids is a horrible idea, the heals should be landing constantly whether damage is taken or not. and in this case, all the extra avoidance is STILL a mana sink, and is only contributing to overhealing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  5. #5
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    I'll respond to this later but...


    I can already tell this is going to end TERRIBLY.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  6. #6
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    Some bosses hit harder than others. You gear so that you can survive two hits from one boss, then the next boss hits 1% harder and you can no longer survive 2 hits. There is always another boss...
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

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    Also if you're in Tanks for Hire (that's your character name on your post, right?) your cheesed gems and enchants are not totally going along with your statements here. You gained a total of 50 extra defense rating and 6 expertise skill...hardly worth losing all that health over such a tiny amount. And Armsman to gloves, how horrible is your threat that you need to increase it 2%? Not to mention the 10 parry rating which is doing a whole lot of nothing. And corpse tongue coin = awesome, to vendor. You go on and on about maxing your item levels yet you're using a shield enchant from burning crusade!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  8. #8
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    Agg, I don't think you'll get the chance. This is gonna be locked down fast.

    OP - Please try not to start EH vs. Avoidance arguments... even if it wasn't your intent.
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    Look I'm not trying to be mean, it comes somewhat naturally. The hard fact of the matter is you aren't experienced enough to make these arguments, it's not fact, it's theory and unsubstantiated theory to boot. A little more research would do you wonders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  10. #10
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    I imagine a post like this could survive if it didn't include the phrase, "you're wrong." But that is somewhat inevitable.


    Would definitely need a moratorium on "you're dumb."
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #11
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    I think the bigger issue is this:

    "stack stam to the extreme" strategy when making gearing/equipment choices.
    Followed by:

    Assumptions:

    The only damage taken by the tank is physical, and
    The boss’s damage is all connecting - the tanks legs are broken and they cannot dodge. Their weapons are warped and can no longer parry, and
    There is no healing taken by the tank in question - healers are off dancing elsewhere, instead of doing their job, OR
    The damage is taken in one large burst of damage.
    Which basically contradicts itself.

    Stacking Stam to the extreme on a Magic based fight is the best way to survive it unless you have rediculously high magic reduction. He basically argues against stacking stam for magic based fights. O.o

    I think the biggest problem here is that the post seems to not grasp what exactly EH is, and that leads to the misconception that you "stack stam". As we have explained numerous times before, Stam is NOT the only factor in the EH equation.

    Not many tanks properly understand the consequences of how they implement it in terms of ease of healing - stamina stacking makes you harder to heal in longer fights as you become a manasink.

    Not many understand that EH should vary dependant on classes because of class-specific abilities which are always on, yet are not included in its calculation (frost presence/defensive stance RF/Argent Defender/Will of the Necropolis).

    Over emphasis on stamina leading to "dead points" being placed on your character. Dead points are points which are counted in the budget towards your item level, but do not actually serve a purpose. This effectively lowers the item level of a piece as you aren't using all that is budgeted towards the piece.
    Excessive hit on casters is seen as bad as it will not be used. Similarly for tanks, if you never go below 20k hp, why do you have all of that there? Spend these points elsewhere so you are getting more effective use out of your gear.
    This just doesn't make sense. If you are getting hit for about 17k damage every second by the LK WITH 70% damage reduction, why in the name of everything that is WoW would you want to reduce your health/armor? How does having the health to take those hits make healing you harder? It doesn't. It makes it easier.
    Last edited by MellvarTank; 04-07-2010 at 08:01 AM. Reason: edited for clarity/completeness
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  12. #12
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    Very nice of you to "educate" us here... There are however a few flaws in your arguments. Apart from the mana issue not beeing an actual issue as mentioned above stacking stamina is more or less the only way to help against non physical attacks.

    You say that if you never go below 20khp then use the stats for something else instead. Apart from content you massively overgear like doing the easier heroics in full ICC gear there will always be situations when you are low on health. I'm not claiming that they happen all the time (even though they arent uncommon on some bosses) but if it even one single time per raid leads to you getting killed because you had chosen to get 5% extra dodge instead of the 7k hp that would have saved you I think its reason enough to rethink.
    You compare this to dps having too much hit rating but its not the same thing. They should gear so that their average damage is the highest but us tanks cant gear for the average suvivability. We must gear for the extreme cases as long as mana isnt an issue. A dead tank in most fights, leads to a wipe.

    Hasnt this been discussed enough times already? I mean there is no one stopping you from doing it another way if you want to is there. I like my stamina and intend to keep it as long as the healers dont go oom and if you like your what-ever-it-is then keep it as long as it works

    Edit: Spelling
    Last edited by PatrikL; 04-07-2010 at 08:00 AM.

  13. #13
    this thread popped up on my google reader (cool feature, it updates every time someone posts a new thread, and you can read the initial post but not any replies) and I was like oooohhh I gotta get over there to see all the replies :P


    My 2 cents? it boils down to the same two statements that get made over and over on these threads:

    1) If you're in a progression fight, stack EH (and obviously if you have a piece of gear a red and blue socket, and there's a 12 stam socket bonus then put a expertise/stam gem in already! - in other words, use common sense)

    2) If you overgear the content, wear whatever you want because it really doesn't matter. We killed ICC bosses with 15k hp less than we have now - so technically I could drop all that HP and put on some avoidance gear or dps pieces if I really wanted to. Heck, I wear my thunderfury for at least half of ICC now, because it's farm content and we've got insane dps with the buff now. The fact that I can hold aggro just fine with my thunderfury shows you how much you really need to gear for threat in order to hold threat (i.e. you don't).
    "Stop trying to hit me and hit me!"

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  14. #14
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    Let's try this.
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...21&pageNo=2#37
    Running out of mana doesn't have to be, and won't be, the only reason you fail an encounter. But it is a point of failure that we don't have today
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...99&pageNo=3#41
    I would assert in the current game that threat is almost never an issue.
    Now. Try again. That's the reality of today's progression tank game.
    In the past, there have been times and places for high avoidance sets. And, there are places for high threat sets. But not in progression, not now.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I can already tell this is going to end TERRIBLY.
    it is getting there very quickly...
    -Jimmy

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  16. #16
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    Responses by the "knowledgeable" at the time generally leads to the rapid decline of new modes of thinking. Once again the crowd at TS disappoints. See you when you have 70k.
    Wait, you came here.... posted bad info, then trash the posters who are telling you where you went wrong in your thinking?

    Go back to the WoW forums, I smell troll.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    Once again the crowd at TS disappoints.
    once again? did you have a previous account here or something? because your account hasn't been created for more than a week...
    "Stop trying to hit me and hit me!"

    ~ Morpheus

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    amidoinitrite?
    -Jimmy

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    Over emphasis on stamina leading to "dead points" being placed on your character. Dead points are points which are counted in the budget towards your item level, but do not actually serve a purpose. This effectively lowers the item level of a piece as you aren't using all that is budgeted towards the piece.
    Adding more stamina is never a bad thing and is not considered "dead points" by any means. In any situation all you are doing is adding a larger buffer for your healers to work with, thus increasing the margin for error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    Rule 1: Addressed in a basic fashion. Many tanks lack situational awareness and/or the ability pay attention to what goes on in the raid outside their own little tankbox. They focus on the single target in front of them while ignoring the 6 adds passing by to swat a dps or a tank. Single target they deal with simply enough.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with effective health as does much of your post, I won't quote every part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    Rule 3: Threat is largely being ignored by the masses who think that because their hunters can feign/misdirect and their rogues can tricks them and/or vanish, that they are doing a fine job on threat. Every tricks wasted on you is a dpser losing dps. Every time a hunter feigns they waste a cooldown and possibly then some. Similar situation for mages casting invis and warlocks shattering. Truly exceptional dps do have to do this and they should not have to if you do your job well as a tank.
    Threat is not being ignored. Threat is merely trivialized due to tanks understanding how to play their class with proper support from other classes. Read more below in another response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    Rule 4: Ignored by the majority. Overzealous belief in the wrong tenements of effective health means that surviving can be done, though the duration of survival can be somewhat limited.
    Emphasis on the stacking of health to increase the amount of damage you can take before dying, but does not reduce the amount of damage you will take. The issues with stacking avoidance was that spiky damage was hard to heal, the issue with stam stacking is that healers who run out of mana healing you present the very situation expressed by effective health instead of prevent a situation where healers run out of mana.
    No healers that are properly geared for the content you are doing are going to "run dry" on mana, it quite simply does not happen in Wrath, regardless of how the tank gears. Additionally while it is true that Stamina does not "reduce" the damage you take armor does and ARMOR IS A MAJOR COMPONENT OF EFFECTIVE HEALTH.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    2: Minimise Deadpointing.
    Look at what you are using and what you are not using. If you sit at 50k hp and you never get below 20k hp, drop 10k hp in gems/trinkets and place those points elsewhere that will be used - you can regem it later if you need that health back. Spend the item points increasing your threat or decreasing your damage taken. Your raiding team will thank you for it.
    There is absolutely no point in "spending itemization points" on threat. Your threat first and foremost for any tank class comes from properly using your abilities, followed shortly by spec and glyphs. Near the bottom comes Expertise at 26 skill and in dead last Hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    3: Don't avoid avoidance.
    Spikes in damage were caused by tanks stacking avoidance without considering a means to flatly reduce the amount of damage they were taking in any one hit, just trying to avoid as much as possible. With all the +armor on items, avoidance will no longer appear to be too much of a hindrance on healing and the extra few % you get will be noticed and appreciated by your healers. If you aren't going to die in 2 hits, then the spikes of damage aren't going to kill you anymore. Things have changed with Ulduar because blizzard actually saw what was happening and compensated accordingly.
    No tank that understood the current theory crafting information was stacking avoidance in this expansion, that's a fact. There were a "few" fights in which avoidance was more beneficial than EH and good tanks swapped out gear accordingly (mostly though trinkets, necks, and rings). No tank worth their salt was gemming and enchanting for pure avoidance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    Remember: Effective health is only effective if the health is used.
    As a tank please list a situation in which your health is not used? This is a very confusing statement.

    Overall it seems as though you are jumping on the bandwagon that , "I will not follow the masses and stack stam, I am special". Not stacking stam does not make a tank special, it merely shows they are uninformed about the current excepted facts in the tanking community.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strongbeans View Post
    I didn't say stack avoid over hp. I just said stack other stuff over hp you don't use.

    And the magic arbitrary number changes depending on what content you are doing. I don't think that number would change between marrowgar and sindragosa though (non-heroic).
    I think what he's going for here is, if you're doing farm content, and you never drop below 10k health, it's safe enough to drop 5k health, that does nothing for you, for other stats.

    And sure. (duh) When we do trash (or trash bosses) we wear more hit / expertise / dps gear etc. We've been farming content like that for as long as we've been farming content. (5 years). And while I certainly feel it's valuable to do more damage and kill trash quicker, it's farm content. We'll kill it no matter what I do. So it's not that important for all of us to talk about. But that's not how you gear up your primary set for the progression - oh gosh he hits hard- fights. Because threat and oom healers aren't an issue.

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