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Thread: Death Knights to have Dedicated Tanking Tree in Cataclysm

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post
    Yeah, this is a good point, and kinda scary (my other character is a druid).

    Following their logic for DKs suggests something dire coming for druids. Druids currently have 4 separate specs in only 3 trees; DKs currently have 6 separate specs in 3 trees, but Cata will collapse those to just 3 specs. If mastery doesn't let you keep both DPS and Tank in one tree, then what becomes of the feral Druid bear/cat schism?

    One radical solution would be to move the feral cat talents into the balance tree, essentially giving balance the option to either melee dps as cat or range dps as boomkin. This probably presents just as many new problems, though, since one is physical/melee/rogue-style/energy-based while the other is magical/ranged/caster-style/mana-based. However, it would give a clean separation of DPS/Tank/Healing masteries (ala the DK solution). I know it seems crazy to even think this way, but I'm grasping at straws because I just don't see how they can really fix the Druid issue along the same lines as they are for DKs. Yet if they don't address the same issue for Druids, then their arguments about needing to make this change for DKs gets a lot weaker.
    The worst part about mixing cat/bal talents inside the same tree is.... Mastery.

    What would the mastery bonus be?
    Mastery according to them is supposed to be "special things the tree has some renown". Warriors critical blocking, shamans getting overload, most of the things are quite "special" to the tree.

    I wonder what will be the mastery bonus for DKs, but with niches this should make their job quite easier.
    And for druids... I don't really see a mastery that would fit both cat and boomkin and yet not be just some generic dps buff (like enh shaman got - though I realize being a melee hitting class that gets to throw lots of spells could be their "trademark", yet I wouldn't consider this mastery as fun as most of the others)

    Let's just see what they bring to masteries to cats/bears...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    If you wan't to state that DK trees are: ( DPS/Tanking/PvP ) / ( DPS/Tanking/PvP ) / ( DPS/Tanking/PvP )
    Thus lets call that each three has 3 purposes, then at least have the curtsey to not claim that all other class trees is Single Purpose...
    For sticks and stones lets keep PvP out of the picture, because I don't nessesarily agree that all DK tress is and should be PvP viable...
    But also because that Mixing PvP into the Equation makes alot of Trees Dual Purpose, certainly the Paladin Holy tree is both seen in PvE and PvE, Various DPS specs is seen in PvP as well as PvE (Druids, Shamans).
    EVEN Tank speced warriors is now seen in PvP.

    But beyond that point and back to include PvP, yes there is only a single other class that have a Tri-purpose tree beyond the Death Knight...
    And that is the Druid Feral tree... Feral goes for Tanking, DPS and PvP... As someone pointed out (and I actually never thought about that when I looked at Mastery to be a proper (bad but proper) reason)... What might they do with the mastery system on this one?...
    Or maybe the Question will be, is it the Cat or the Bear that they will remove?
    You might not agree with that statement but each tree has been adjusted due to PVP imbalances. The diffrence between the Pallie and the DK in this regard is that each of the Pallie's trees are defined for PVE (holy, prot, dps) while people PVP as dps as a DK but a tweak in survival or damage will have a direct effect on the tanking aspect of that spec. As far as comparing DKs to feral druids, you have to keep in mind that when a druid shapeshifts to a bear he has certain moves that can only be used by a bear and vice versa for cats. Keeping damage and threat is somewhat easier since these moves have their own formula. As for DKs you are just switching presences not spell bars so once again we see a heavy influence of prot to dps.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by enricobr View Post
    The worst part about mixing cat/bal talents inside the same tree is.... Mastery.

    What would the mastery bonus be?
    Mastery according to them is supposed to be "special things the tree has some renown". Warriors critical blocking, shamans getting overload, most of the things are quite "special" to the tree.

    I wonder what will be the mastery bonus for DKs, but with niches this should make their job quite easier.
    And for druids... I don't really see a mastery that would fit both cat and boomkin and yet not be just some generic dps buff (like enh shaman got - though I realize being a melee hitting class that gets to throw lots of spells could be their "trademark", yet I wouldn't consider this mastery as fun as most of the others)

    Let's just see what they bring to masteries to cats/bears...
    It could be:
    damage done
    melee haste
    shapeshifting - wherein the druid gets faster shifting times, mana cost to shift, etc. is minimized, etc.

    That said, they said every tank will get vengence and that dpsers wouldn't have access to it... so again, do they get two mastery sets? Do they just take tanking away from bears?

  4. #64
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    likely the masteries will look something like:

    1) bleed damage increase
    2) Bear: Vengeance / Cat: ArP/AP/AGI scaling somehow
    3) <cool ability>

    But who knows!

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  5. #65
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    Why are we talking about Ferals in the DK thread?? Bad Kaz!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post
    I'm also worried about my DPS spec now. I really like both Blood and Frost, but I don't care for Unholy right now. Mainly, I just don't think pet management is much fun. I also really prefer 2h for DPS, but it sounds like they are going to force me to go Unholy if I want to keep doing 2h DPS, which is totally uncool. Unless they change a lot about the way the specs play currently, I'm going to be very sad.

    I guess I'll have to start trying to collect some decent one-handers just in case I get forced into that box. Meh.
    Looks like they've gotten a bunch of similar responses on this very topic. The preview claims they will try to make 2h viable for Frost DPS so we don't get forced to choose between dw and pet management. Much relieved to see this. I hope they pull it off.

  7. #67
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    Feral (Cat)
    Melee Damage
    Melee Critical Damage
    Bleed Damage

    Feral (Bear)
    Damage Reduction
    Vengeance
    Savage Defense

    I don't know why they couldn't have done similar for DKs. Make it presence based. Hell, maybe even give blood and unholy similar or even the same bonuses and simply focus on the dps/tank split.

  8. #68
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    Because frost presence in PVP would have to much potential would be my guess



  9. #69
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    Like druids shifting myriad forms?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    [/B]I don't know why they couldn't have done similar for DKs. Make it presence based. Hell, maybe even give blood and unholy similar or even the same bonuses and simply focus on the dps/tank split.
    The mechanics are completely different in every way.
    Frost and Blood have the same ability set and the ability to switch on a global. Having 3 tank trees would mean that all 3 specs would have to be balanced around the specs having access to DPS talents and tank talents.
    I understand flavor, but people are writing off something that is a monumentous task and frankly probably outright impossible as Blizzard's laziness, when it simply isn't the case.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    Like druids shifting myriad forms?
    It would be the equivalent of cat druids getting bear form armor, innate damage reductions, and whatever nice tanking bonuses cataclysm will bring (like Vengeance), while still having access to all of their abilities, just with a reduced damage cost.

    Basically, not the same thing.

  12. #72
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    Satorri said something on this topic tonight during the podcast that made a lot of sense, I forget what it was because I was to busy reading the druid previews, but I remember he said it. Maybe he remembers.

    Anyway, this is the best thing they could have possibly done for DK tanks. Did anyone honestly tank as true unholy since ... well forever, that was not a gimmick spec for something like council steelbreaker last? So the difference between frost and blood tanks, you only tanked as frost if you like the feel and flavor of frost, the rotations, what do they get howling blast instead of bloodboil? frost strike instead of rune strike? In the end, this completely removes the need for rune strike because the abilities you use while tanking WILL ONLY BE FOR TANKING so they will finally be able to balance DK threat properly, you will get better cooldowns instead of having your tanking cooldowns in 3 different trees, and absorption is pretty amazing depending on how it finally ends up.

    O, and you will not be changed every single patch because 2 specs work for tanking and only 1 for DPS but then next patch you have 2 DPS trees and 1/2 a tanking tree. Trying to balance 6 specs for a single class is just unreasonable to expect of them and that more than "this class is a brand new class this expansion" is part of the reason DKs were changed so much.



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    It would be the equivalent of cat druids getting bear form armor, innate damage reductions, and whatever nice tanking bonuses cataclysm will bring (like Vengeance), while still having access to all of their abilities, just with a reduced damage cost.

    Basically, not the same thing.
    Except for having to spec into those abilities as they (and DKs) do today.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    Except for having to spec into those abilities as they (and DKs) do today.
    I really don't understand your argument? Balancing 3 specs filled with talents will be much harder, if not impossible, than balancing druids with 1 spec that has abilities that work completely differently in 2 different forms. It's a totally different scenario.
    It COULD have been done, but it would be much like it is today, where there is still really one dominant tanking spec and fringes that tank as frost, and no one that tanks as unholy. Why not at least get the benefits other tanks do of being balanced around tank abilities that are solely for tanking?
    Don't be petty because you are getting an overhaul, be glad you are getting balance.

  15. #75
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    And probably a more easily maintained balance.

    The ease that comes with having a tanking tree leaves plenty of room for pure function. We get all the tank love, focused and not diluted. I'll miss having 3 trees to tank in as much as the next DK, but I won't be sad for the improved support that this change will bring.

    Sunny side.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #76
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    I'm not being petty. I'm actually a bit surprised to see that sort of name calling here frankly.

    The reason blood is dominant today is because EH is dominant today. If blizz and the encounter design team specifically can finally move away from the boss design that FORCES that emphasis as they say they hope to then you'd see less fringe specs as fringe specs. Do I think they'll actually achieve that? Not especially. The only times EH really ran into question was in Sunwell (you can check out Satrina's related blog entry for that time capsule) and early LK when tanks dallied with weaving in dps gear for some fights in the latter portion of the first tier of content. Recent comments from GC regarding threat vs. survivability don't give me much hope.

    Edge, you said: "Why not at least get the benefits other tanks do of being balanced around tank abilities that are solely for tanking?" That's the real issue. Things like Unbreakable Armor aren't designed as pure tank abilities. They can easily change those sorts of talents to help move their trees into a place that resembles the druid's feral tree.

    Yes, the allows for greater focus. Yes, that's a great thing. I'm not disputing that. What's being sacrificed is a flexibility and playstyle options NO OTHER tanking class has had the pleasure of enjoying. Nor will they ever since the effort was simply deemed too high.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    Edge, you said: "Why not at least get the benefits other tanks do of being balanced around tank abilities that are solely for tanking?" That's the real issue. Things like Unbreakable Armor aren't designed as pure tank abilities. They can easily change those sorts of talents to help move their trees into a place that resembles the druid's feral tree.
    That is not what he is talking about, he is talking about what I am talking about. I know nothing about DK rotations but here is my limited knowledge giving examples:

    A blood tank uses heartstrike strike a and strike b, a blood DPS uses heartstrike strike a and strike b

    a frost tank uses frost strike strike a and strike b, a frost DPS uses frost strike strike a and strike b

    an unholy tank uses strikes a b and c, an unholy dps uses strikes a b and c

    A fury warrior uses WW slam and bloodthirst, a warrior tank uses shield slam revenge and devastate

    ret paladins use crusader strike and divine storm, prot pallies use shield and hammer and whatever

    Cat druids uses rake rip and shred, bear druids use swipe lacerate and FF

    See the pattern?

    The only precedent they might have if the example I left off of druids, cats get Mangle(cat) and bears get Mangle(bear), but that is the only cross-over. Do you really want EVERY SINGLE DK ability to say Heart Strike(blood presence) Heart Strike(frost presence)?

    Yes, the allows for greater focus. Yes, that's a great thing. I'm not disputing that. What's being sacrificed is a flexibility and playstyle options NO OTHER tanking class has had the pleasure of enjoying. Nor will they ever since the effort was simply deemed too high.
    I will repeat:

    O, and you will not be changed every single patch because 2 specs work for tanking and only 1 for DPS but then next patch you have 2 DPS trees and 1/2 a tanking tree. Trying to balance 6 specs for a single class is just unreasonable to expect of them and that more than "this class is a brand new class this expansion" is part of the reason DKs were changed so much.
    This change is to add stability to the class, every extra second that a developer must waste to balance 6 different DK specs is that much less time they have to design interesting dungeons and raids. Like they have been saying in almost every preview, we do not want to add a lot of new art for a specific class because then the entire game as a whole will not look as good as it can and models will be recycled over and over. And also like they have been saying, we do not want to add abilities just for the sake of abilities when we already have classes that do not use even a 1/3 of there abilities because they are not balanced properly.

    Blizzard already wasted so much time trying to balance DKs every single patch that it took away from the game as a whole, so yes in a way it is being petty.
    Last edited by Darksend; 04-11-2010 at 11:18 AM.



  18. #78
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    To the best of my knowledge and barring scourge strike, the strikes haven't been the focus of much of the roller coaster ride the DKs have seen (or much of the dev distraction). Yes, it's an aberrant pattern but frankly so what? Again, the biggest yoinking around has been centered on the cooldowns, sta and armor modifiers, etc.

    Listen, what we're losing by the change to 1 tree tanking for the dk for the tanking community as a whole is substantial:
    - DKs largely weren't predicated on +threat modifiers for their abilities (for the longest time). That's already started eroding over time. Come Cataclysm, they'll be like the rest of us: hemmed in by how much genuine damage they can do because of threat modifiers. Will GC's deference of the threat game factor in here? Maybe. Will Vengeance help? Hopefully. Time will tell.
    - DKs afforded people the opportunity to enjoy different play styles when tanking. Want something more traditional and rotation-y? Go blood. Want something more dynamic and priority-y? Go frost. People go blood today because of the efficiency of going blood, not because it's fun. Were other tanks ever going to get that sort of flexibility? Not likely. But at least while the Grand DK Experiment was around, Blizz at least loosely talked about it.

    DKs were an innovative design. Something new to the mmo oeuvre as a whole. Now that's all on the trash heap of history.

    Anyway, it's clear I'm the outlier here. And I'm glad people like Satorri are doing the stiff upper lip / silver lining thing. I'm just trying to point out the design concerns while the rest of you are focused on the resource concerns. I'll simmerdownnow.

  19. #79
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    Frost tanking really isn't much different than Blood tanking, especially with the Rime changes. Strikes have definitely been an issue with DK tanking remaining viable... SS v DS v Obliterate, nerfing HS cleave for DPS changes which in turn reduced DK secondary threat a great deal, RS being an "On next attack" and "After dodge/parry" ability that is universally available to DK's instead of an instant strike / flat RP / flat CD ability in the tanking tree...
    IBF changes, cooldown changes, a lot of balancing, has been done due to PvP concerns and DPS concerns also, and EVERY small change made to DKs effects the tanking game as a whole.
    All of the issues the DK class has can be boiled down to Blizzard attempting 3 viable trees. RP costs on tanking abilities and Rune Costs on tanking cooldowns? 3 trees, mixed together.
    I won't harp on the issue anymore, but there's a reason the DK was "unique"... because it was logistically a nightmare that would never, ever end without this change.

  20. #80
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    I'm confused why the about face from frost to blood, though from a mechanics perspective the self healing abilities do seem to scream "Ima tank!". Though it's not the iconic DK tree, well as some of my friends say at least. Most say Frost is.

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