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Thread: Death Knights to have Dedicated Tanking Tree in Cataclysm

  1. #41
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    Simple logic dictates that if they wish to make Blood the "Tanking" tree, that their optimal Blood tree will play something like Blood does now, with some significant differences, but still modeled around the current. I am bored when I tank as Blood, I am never bored when I tank as Frost. There's no logical conclusion that can be drawn that they will take everything that was fun about Frost tanking and transfer it to Blood. If they wanted to do that, then they would make Frost the Tank tree and move all of the Blood Tanking stuff to Frost. It's that simple.

  2. #42
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    I'll be interested to see what changes they have in store for Frost and Unholy with their current tank talents. With Blood being the only tanking tree I'm curious if you'll see Blood/Frost or Blood/UH sub-specs, or will all your talents be put into Blood. I imagine that there will still be sub-specs that contain talents to help boost threat, but stuff like Anticipation and Toughness will most likely be incorporated into Blood or will go away. Also how do you think they will rebalance the current Presences? Simply swap Blood/Frost around, or revamp them? I would personally like to see the 15% damage just added into our class somehow and give Frost and Unholy unique abilities such as what Unholy currently has. I'm pretty sure they will redo Unholy Presence as well because they've said that haste will affect the CD on Runes so leaving it wouldn't make much sense.

  3. #43
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    From everything they've suggested, after maxing out your points for Mastery in the Tank tree, the only incentive to stay in the Tank tree is to pick up fun Tanking talents. Things such as Anticipation and Toughness, in theory, should go away completely, because they're "must-have" talents. You wouldn't tank without them, so, presumably, they'd be built into Mastery. The reason you would put points in Frost or Unholy after reaching the Mastery cap would be to add some flavor from those specs to your own, things like raid buffs to increase your raid utlity (think icy talons) or shorter CDs on things like DnD (as it currently is in Unholy) so that you can use it more often. There would be no incentive to split your points and short-change yourself in the Blood tree to go deep into Frost or Unholy for something like DWing or better Pets (not just permanent ones).

  4. #44
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    I can definitely see why they need to do this. Should make it a lot easier to keep things balanced. Hopefully this will mean a lot less ping-ponging between OP and nerfbat. Maybe it will even make for more fun with interesting talent choices. Very curious to see more details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loremaster Roht View Post
    ...That's another reason why Frost is still a popular tank spec, it's more fun. A subjective thing as always, but it's also what keeps a lot of Prot Warriors going too. Being "the best" tank class or spec keeps some people happy, but not all. A lot of people like Frost over Blood simply because it's more fun. IF blood can be made more fun to play as a tank spec, rather than your typical meatshield with the perk of self-healing? That will probably quell a lot of the complaints. If not, don't be suprised if a LOT of DK tanks end up leaving the class.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    Simple logic dictates that if they wish to make Blood the "Tanking" tree, that their optimal Blood tree will play something like Blood does now, with some significant differences, but still modeled around the current. I am bored when I tank as Blood, I am never bored when I tank as Frost. There's no logical conclusion that can be drawn that they will take everything that was fun about Frost tanking and transfer it to Blood....
    I have to say I strongly agree with this concern. I recently switched from Frost tanking to Blood tanking. I definitely feel much more viable now as a Blood tank, which is nice, but it's a LOT less fun than Frost tanking was. Sad but true.

    I'm also worried about my DPS spec now. I really like both Blood and Frost, but I don't care for Unholy right now. Mainly, I just don't think pet management is much fun. I also really prefer 2h for DPS, but it sounds like they are going to force me to go Unholy if I want to keep doing 2h DPS, which is totally uncool. Unless they change a lot about the way the specs play currently, I'm going to be very sad.

    I guess I'll have to start trying to collect some decent one-handers just in case I get forced into that box. Meh.

  5. #45
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    The DK was supposed to be a "hero" class. Something unique.
    Now.... it is being reduced to the mundane. It is becoming one with the masses.

    Let's not kid ourselves.... the change is going to be a COMPLETE overhaul of the class.

    Think about it. What is the "tank presence"? Frost presence. So, for starters, we're going to be seeing the presences being flipped around. How many different talents in each tree reflect tanking? Are these going to be translated over to blood..... or just simply lost to the DK forever? What new talents are going to replace these, as there will be a large void left to fill. The dps talents, how will they mesh in? Will new ones be incorporated into blood, or will some merge? Spells/talents like Howling Blast..... what will happen to these?

    This is a MUCH bigger change than what any other class is going to be experiencing. And what I find almost comical about it, is this:

    "It started to feel unfair to the other tank classes that we had to spend so much effort tweaking three types of DK tanks, and it even started to feel unfair to the DK that we couldn’t focus their tanking experience. " http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

    So, Blizzard is performing an overhaul to a class because of how it was "unfair" to the other classes?
    Do they realize the effort that will be required in 1) changing all the trees to reduce to one tank tree and 2) all of the work they will have to do to simply get that one tree balanced out AFTER they've pretty much started over with the class?

    As for their statement that it was "unfair" to the DK, how is this proposed change going to be "fair"? You're now taking a class that felt subpar compared to the other tank classes, buttoning it down to now one spec, and overhauling the whole class.

  6. #46
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    I'm glad that others enjoy Frost Tanking as much as I do, hopefully DW Frost Tanking at that. If more people do enjoy it, then there's at least a decent chance that Blizzard will try to preserve it in some form. If very few people actually enjoy DW Frost tanking more than Blood, then it would be rather selfish of me to expect that they would do anything to try and keep it around. Blizzard does listen to their customers, but the concerns of a small handful don't generally outweigh the numbers. Sometimes they do, but that's often more in favor of nerfs than in class-changing turn-around mechanics changes.

  7. #47
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    The change, as a whole, will probably be better for DKs. With one spec to focus on, DKs should be able to be more evened out, and have a nicer array of defensive capabilities. There's no argument there. No one should be QQing about nerfs or any of that. Many, maybe most, DKs should be excited about these changes. I understand that DK tanking will likely be stronger as a result of this. But I know that DK Tanking could have been stronger with the preservation of the various Tanking flavors that exist now.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 04-07-2010 at 01:18 PM. Reason: lets not turn this into blizz hates us, blizz loves x class

  8. #48
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    I largely agree with Lulia. And for everyone saying masteries are the issue then how are they going to address it for the druid feral tree? Same issue exists there. If you can solve it in one place, you can solve it in 4 (or more).

  9. #49
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    no touchy my post stinky orc! /shakes fist!
    Last edited by Krenian; 04-07-2010 at 04:51 PM. Reason: ohay Kazey!

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post
    Hopefully this will mean a lot less ping-ponging between OP and nerfbat. Maybe it will even make for more fun with interesting talent choices. Very curious to see more details.
    The scary thing is though that if for some reason they mess it up or it lags behind the other tank classes there's no alternate spec to fall back on. The good thing is that it will (hopefully) allow them to adjust DK tanks better and faster than trying to balance 2 or even 3 talent trees. They haven't always been fast to react on adjusting classes that obviously needed to be buffed or nerfed based on what the majority of the community felt was necessary. Yes, sometimes there's "QQ buff my class" when it isn't necessary, but there has been times when there were obvious issues that went ignored for a long time.

  11. #51
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    I think the delay on paladins honestly is more around nerfs than anything else. Blizz has been pretty vocal that they think pally aoe tanking needs to take a hit, that ret is too easy to master, and that holy doesn't have enough depth.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    ...And for everyone saying masteries are the issue then how are they going to address it for the druid feral tree? Same issue exists there. If you can solve it in one place, you can solve it in 4 (or more).
    Yeah, this is a good point, and kinda scary (my other character is a druid).

    Following their logic for DKs suggests something dire coming for druids. Druids currently have 4 separate specs in only 3 trees; DKs currently have 6 separate specs in 3 trees, but Cata will collapse those to just 3 specs. If mastery doesn't let you keep both DPS and Tank in one tree, then what becomes of the feral Druid bear/cat schism?

    One radical solution would be to move the feral cat talents into the balance tree, essentially giving balance the option to either melee dps as cat or range dps as boomkin. This probably presents just as many new problems, though, since one is physical/melee/rogue-style/energy-based while the other is magical/ranged/caster-style/mana-based. However, it would give a clean separation of DPS/Tank/Healing masteries (ala the DK solution). I know it seems crazy to even think this way, but I'm grasping at straws because I just don't see how they can really fix the Druid issue along the same lines as they are for DKs. Yet if they don't address the same issue for Druids, then their arguments about needing to make this change for DKs gets a lot weaker.

  13. #53
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    Lets keep this on point, if you want to discuss DKs which are the topic on hand, then go for it, explain yourself your concerns your joys etc. Lets not turn this into something it's not. What blizzard does internally for their development couldn't possibly be fathomed by the likes of us, and we shouldn't for 1 moment, think that they are playing favorites for or against any class.

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  14. #54
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    I think a lot of people forget that DKs will be the only 1H dual wield strength class. Compared to rogues, shaman, and hunters for agi 1 handers. If we use the same paradigm of dual wield strictly for frost then we have an issue. One spec from one class will need a specific weapon that no one else cares about. So they either make a talent for frost to convert agi to strength in their talent or make dual wield accessible to the other DK specs. Just cause theres a defined tank spec doesnt mean that the play styles have to become rigid. Using WoLK as a map that you piece these new ideas into will only leave you confused and often times disappointed.

  15. #55
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    I'm going to miss my blood DPS

  16. #56
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    There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread.
    First - parry haste only exists in ICC on lady Deathwhisper and Sindragosa. Nothing more. Dual Wielding causing parry gibs died in Ulduar.

    Second - Blood isn't more "spammy" than Frost. Even if they weren't going to make this change in Cata, Frosts superior TPS is due mainly because of it's immense boosts to Icy Touch damage and frost damage in general. You are still using an ability every global, only sub heart strike for blood strike, obliterate for death strike, and change the death rune combo. If anything it's MORE "spammy" due to a higher RP generation and higher use of RS.

    In all likelihood they will add new abilities to blood that are tanking based... thus removing the complaint that Blood is too passive to play.

    Third - It isn't legit to compare this to Holy versus Discipline. Other classes that are hybrid are setup in a pretty standard fashion, either DPS tree / DPS tree / Tanking Tree, Heal / Heal / DPS, DPS / DPS / PvP DPS... etc. Each tree has a specialized role. Death Knights had/have a problem though in that they are DPS/Tanking/PvP / DPS/Tanking/PvP / DPS/Tanking/PvP... it isn't about the talent path, it's about how bloated each tree really is.
    Blizzard isn't being lazy here, they are being realistic.

  17. #57
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    Third - It isn't legit to compare this to Holy versus Discipline. Other classes that are hybrid are setup in a pretty standard fashion, either DPS tree / DPS tree / Tanking Tree, Heal / Heal / DPS, DPS / DPS / PvP DPS... etc. Each tree has a specialized role. Death Knights had/have a problem though in that they are DPS/Tanking/PvP / DPS/Tanking/PvP / DPS/Tanking/PvP... it isn't about the talent path, it's about how bloated each tree really is.
    Blizzard isn't being lazy here, they are being realistic.
    QFT. Hopefully this will stop the roller coaster.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Third - It isn't legit to compare this to Holy versus Discipline. Other classes that are hybrid are setup in a pretty standard fashion, either DPS tree / DPS tree / Tanking Tree, Heal / Heal / DPS, DPS / DPS / PvP DPS... etc. Each tree has a specialized role. Death Knights had/have a problem though in that they are DPS/Tanking/PvP / DPS/Tanking/PvP / DPS/Tanking/PvP... it isn't about the talent path, it's about how bloated each tree really is.
    Blizzard isn't being lazy here, they are being realistic.
    If you wan't to state that DK trees are: ( DPS/Tanking/PvP ) / ( DPS/Tanking/PvP ) / ( DPS/Tanking/PvP )
    Thus lets call that each three has 3 purposes, then at least have the curtsey to not claim that all other class trees is Single Purpose...
    For sticks and stones lets keep PvP out of the picture, because I don't nessesarily agree that all DK tress is and should be PvP viable...
    But also because that Mixing PvP into the Equation makes alot of Trees Dual Purpose, certainly the Paladin Holy tree is both seen in PvE and PvE, Various DPS specs is seen in PvP as well as PvE (Druids, Shamans).
    EVEN Tank speced warriors is now seen in PvP.

    But beyond that point and back to include PvP, yes there is only a single other class that have a Tri-purpose tree beyond the Death Knight...
    And that is the Druid Feral tree... Feral goes for Tanking, DPS and PvP... As someone pointed out (and I actually never thought about that when I looked at Mastery to be a proper (bad but proper) reason)... What might they do with the mastery system on this one?...
    Or maybe the Question will be, is it the Cat or the Bear that they will remove?

  19. #59
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    Well, disappointed that Frost isn't the tank spec anymore. Although I do love Frost DPS, so it's nice I'll be able to continue doing that. Overall I think this will be a good change for the DK class, and I'm very curious to see what the new talent trees look like and playing around with them.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by bling581 View Post
    The scary thing is though that if for some reason they mess it up or it lags behind the other tank classes there's no alternate spec to fall back on. The good thing is that it will (hopefully) allow them to adjust DK tanks better and faster than trying to balance 2 or even 3 talent trees. They haven't always been fast to react on adjusting classes that obviously needed to be buffed or nerfed based on what the majority of the community felt was necessary. Yes, sometimes there's "QQ buff my class" when it isn't necessary, but there has been times when there were obvious issues that went ignored for a long time.
    First line hits a big point.

    At this point, just feels a little isty bit like WotLK was just a real-time "beta" for the DK.

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