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Thread: Death Knights to have Dedicated Tanking Tree in Cataclysm

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by vine View Post
    Who says they are removing Dual Wield from being viable for tanking? We're yet to see the talent tree so completely writing it off at this stage is just arm waving.
    It's just incredibly unlikely. As is being able to DW DPS as Unholy. They would have to put Threat of Thassarian in the top of Frost for it to happen. And you'll notice that they put it in deep frost for a reason. They don't want everyone doing it, because then no one uses 2H weapons. Though it's sort of a tangent anyway since the real issue is not liking blood at this point.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vine View Post
    We're yet to see the talent tree so completely writing it off at this stage is just arm waving.
    Keep this line in mind for the next couple of weeks as we get the class previews. There will be lots of arm-waving going on, and lots of falling sky. Some people just don't like change, and that's the only constant in an ongoing MMO. <shrug>

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfists View Post
    The way i got it from them is they wanted to make the last talent in a tree worth while at the same time they didnt want you to put all your points in one tree.



    Actually its been a turbulent roller coaster. Naxx saw unholy as the go to spec. Ulduar saw the rise of Frost. Trial had Blood. Only till ICC can you say that there might be two choices between Blood and Frost. They could have gone either way with it. Blood just presented itself as being unique in that it worked off self healing for mitigation where frost felt more of a traditional type of tank. Not to mention at this point in the game most DK tanks are Blood.
    Ulduar and onward has been pretty much straight blood as the dominant spec, especially the gimmicky fights like Vezax with MoB/Rune Tap healing.


    And it's because they're lazy. It's because they want everything to fit into their neat "mastery" system that requires no mastery of anything. Not that there's been a whole lot of complexity going on here, but is it just going to come down to clicking icons on the desktop now?
    It's simply not possible to design 3 relevant tanking trees as it is now, and will only be made worse by the mastery system. There are already 3 clear cut tiers of tanking, Blood for progression, then Frost, then Unholy as some sort of bastardized gimmick build. This change will let them focus on PvP/DPS/Tank balance without upsetting the other 2 while they do it. It's a VERY needed and much welcome change for most people.

  4. #24
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    Seems like they are going to make tanking classes more similar than they are now. If they really go in thsi direction, it will definitely enable a better balance between the classes and might also open the door to more interesting content.

    A welcome change.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    It's simply not possible to design 3 relevant tanking trees as it is now, and will only be made worse by the mastery system. There are already 3 clear cut tiers of tanking, Blood for progression, then Frost, then Unholy as some sort of bastardized gimmick build. This change will let them focus on PvP/DPS/Tank balance without upsetting the other 2 while they do it. It's a VERY needed and much welcome change for most people.
    Hrm, let's be realistic here:
    If you wipe due to a tankdeath, and he isn't Blood, you may tell yourself with Bloodspec he would be able to survive that. Chances are, nope he wouldn't have. It's like people laughing at tanks with 2k less HP than others, thinking that this will be a realistic reason for a noticeable number of extra wipes. Just doesn't work that way.

    As someone said, before ICC the trees were kinda close-ish together. They don't have to be perfect, Prot Warrior vs Prot Paladin vs Feral Druid is far from perfect either, I'd argue the 3 DK specs are much closer to each other than that.



    With that being said, done is done and Blood's selfhealing is certainly the most interesting of the DKs styles to preserve, as it's the only unique one.

    Looking forward my main worry is exactly that: Will they dumbify the spec completely? Are they planning for the lowest intellectual common denominator between all current tanks now, making the selfhealing useless, fluffy and/or automatic? Because that would probably drive me away from it too, I enjoy the selfhealing, the challenge it presents, the rewards it offers. And I like I said in the other threat, it's the DK's "Block", there we go with extra tanking mechanics.
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  6. #26
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    It will be interesting to see if they decide to make blood presence the tanking presence also now since the current system with frost beeing it might prove a little bit confusing (and already is to some people). I tank as frost myself today and like it so not 100% happy about this decision but I certainly understand the need for it.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post
    Hrm, let's be realistic here:
    If you wipe due to a tankdeath, and he isn't Blood, you may tell yourself with Bloodspec he would be able to survive that. Chances are, nope he wouldn't have. It's like people laughing at tanks with 2k less HP than others, thinking that this will be a realistic reason for a noticeable number of extra wipes. Just doesn't work that way.

    As someone said, before ICC the trees were kinda close-ish together. They don't have to be perfect, Prot Warrior vs Prot Paladin vs Feral Druid is far from perfect either, I'd argue the 3 DK specs are much closer to each other than that.
    Quoting because this eems to be an attitude a lot of people are taking, even if you specifically don't seem to be behind it like some are, basically even if they're 'sort of' balanced (And they're not, Blood HAS been better than frost barring specific situations where Unbreakable was stronger, and unholy...yeah, we all know it's stunk), this is effort Blizz is expending to 'sort of' balance our 3 trees when in reality they can give us a much more focused tree and more well rounded skills instead of balancing 3 other tank classes and 3 specs of DK, they can just balance '4 tank classes' on their own. We don't have to worry about our talent and abilities dps ramifications, we don't have to rely on relatively boring talents like we do now (Though it's on Blizz to make new interesting ones too). I mean, if our tree can turn more into a warrior or pally prot tree we're in for a treat, instead of basically running with a DPS tree having a few support talents.

  8. #28
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    As soon as they announced passive masteries this was going to happen, the WotN buff sealed it for blood.

    This is very good news for DKs. It is very good news for everyone else who either plays with or against DKs as you can expect much better balance through the next expansion rather than the massive seesaw ride that Wrath proved to be.

  9. #29
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    Will be interesting to see the DK update later on.

    I am dual specced Frost DW for heroics and Blood for raid tanking at the moment, and I can't really say one of them is my favorite - I will probably miss the mass AoE threat from glyphed HB, but I'm not angry that they chose Blood as "the tanking tree".

    I suppose I agree with them in that, while it was definitly possible to tank in all three specs, min-maxing will always find one that is better than the others in particular circumstances.

    @PatrikL: I doubt they'll be changing around Presences (but you never know of course).

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by vine View Post
    Huh? Paladins and Warriors are itemised around two items: weapon and shield. Personally I hate DW but I can easily see two different talents included in the Blood tree: one for DW one for 2handers.
    Not two very slow tanking weapons that are not excistant at the moment unless going back to Nax with outdated stats, or stack a lot of expertise, or go to dps weapons with less HP on them then a 2 hander etc.

    Shield + Sword, isn't the same as having to find 2x tank weapons that have 'useful' tanking stats and a good speed to bring parry haste down to the same level as a 2H dk or a warrior etc.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Not two very slow tanking weapons that are not excistant at the moment unless going back to Nax with outdated stats, or stack a lot of expertise, or go to dps weapons with less HP on them then a 2 hander etc.

    Shield + Sword, isn't the same as having to find 2x tank weapons that have 'useful' tanking stats and a good speed to bring parry haste down to the same level as a 2H dk or a warrior etc.
    1) You don't need two tanking weapons. There are no tanking 2-handers either. The real itemization loss would be a shield's armor, but Frost Presence is designed with that in mind.
    2.) Parry haste: Still irrelevant.

    It's being sold as a good thing for "Death Knights" whereas it's only a good thing for those already specced as Blood. It's a very bad thing for the rest of them. Contrary to some people's excessively aggressive opinions, I'm not a failure as a tank because I'm Frost.

    What I want to know is this: What's going to happen to Holy priests? Disc is clearly superior, right? Why do they need two healing trees?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYanger View Post
    Quoting because this eems to be an attitude a lot of people are taking, even if you specifically don't seem to be behind it like some are, basically even if they're 'sort of' balanced (And they're not, Blood HAS been better than frost barring specific situations where Unbreakable was stronger, and unholy...yeah, we all know it's stunk), this is effort Blizz is expending to 'sort of' balance our 3 trees when in reality they can give us a much more focused tree and more well rounded skills instead of balancing 3 other tank classes and 3 specs of DK, they can just balance '4 tank classes' on their own. We don't have to worry about our talent and abilities dps ramifications, we don't have to rely on relatively boring talents like we do now (Though it's on Blizz to make new interesting ones too). I mean, if our tree can turn more into a warrior or pally prot tree we're in for a treat, instead of basically running with a DPS tree having a few support talents.
    But why have all those tanking classes at all if we just wan't a homogenized way of looking at things? If you could never see the fun prospect of playing a class where your role did not depend on what tree you speced in to, but rather what choices you made in that tree, or the fact that you never where particular forced to run as "X/Y/Z" for tanking, "A/B/C" for DPS, and "L/I/F" for PvP, but you could actually chose the role you wanted, and the tree and utilities you wanted.

    Sure the 3 specs are not 100% balanced in between, but if your Blood tank argument is to hold up anywhere, then why oh why even have more than one single tank class, there is ALWAYS going to be the better one, and since it is of such grave important that you choose the very best one for the job, then I ask you this, WHY ever even tank as a Death knight?.

    At the end of the day we could just bring the thinking of Vanilla back.

    DPS: Mage, Rouge, Warlock, Hunter
    Healer: Shaman, Druid, Paladin, Priest
    Tank: Warrior

    And then place the Death Knight in one of those rows, heck it would be easier to balance, it would limit our need to actually "Think", the road is already paved for us.
    All that said, I am very disappointed in this direction, I had hoped that they would allow for more diversity in other classes as well... But I understand the complications of it in a time where resources has become limited and on top of the mastery/talent system which they will get wrong countless times before any chance of getting it right, EVEN with role centric tress...

    But I guess that is me for liking the Skill system of E.g. EVE more than any other MMO system I know of, the only flaw in that system is that it is theoretically "Capable", meaning at some point you would have theoretically All skills at max...
    And before you say "Then go play EVE", keep in mind I only used there skill system as a reference, the rest mostly sux in that game.
    In the end, as more and more disappointing stuff is revealed, and I have yet to hear about any what so ever interesting stuff about the next expansion, then it might just be the final push needed for leaving Wow.

  13. #33
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    This doesn't really affect me personally but I can bet there's going to be a lot of Blood dps or Frost tanks that aren't very disappointed. When I do tank I preferred going Frost over Blood but it didn't happen often. I know some people that love playing Blood dps and wouldn't think of doing anything else.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rude View Post
    1) You don't need two tanking weapons. There are no tanking 2-handers either. The real itemization loss would be a shield's armor, but Frost Presence is designed with that in mind.
    2.) Parry haste: Still irrelevant.

    It's being sold as a good thing for "Death Knights" whereas it's only a good thing for those already specced as Blood. It's a very bad thing for the rest of them. Contrary to some people's excessively aggressive opinions, I'm not a failure as a tank because I'm Frost.

    What I want to know is this: What's going to happen to Holy priests? Disc is clearly superior, right? Why do they need two healing trees?
    Parry haste can't be completely neglected otherwise you wouldn't run around with barely any expertise, even if it is turned of for most bosses but let's remove that arguement completely, as i don't feel like looking up what the full current status is in ICC and derail this thread.,
    Then still while there aren't 2h tank weapon, 2h's are beter budgeted to fit a tank as already has been in the past (feral druids) and 2hands still have more stamina combined then 2x 1handers.

    Those who geared for dw tanking can't admit that it was easier and didn't came with a stamina turn in and then i'm not even talking about the heavy talent point investment mandatory to make dw viable.

    It isn't only a good thing for just blood, please read or re-read the entire post, as you have to look at the entire picture. Due to turning it towards one tank tree it can be balanced beter and dps talents which are currently useless for us, will make us trade in talents we don't use for things as an AP debuff. Which if i'm not mistaken has been asked for for some time.

    It will also reduce the 'impression' of dk's being a subpar tank due to not having a tank tree and will most likely overal be a buff to DK tanks in general.

    And last but not least it will most likely stop the rollercoaster balance between tank specs and dps specs where one had to be nerfed and the other sadly got nerfed with it aswel.

    The flip side of the coin would also be that dw dps would be completely removed, which currently is still a more played spec then dw tank.
    Then you also have to count in that they told us, plate dpsers with some minor modifications can still tank instances just not raids.


    The comparison between disc and holy and frost and blood tank is just odd, as disc and holy are 2 healing specs but both with their own healing purpose in a raid. Raid vs tank healing.
    While one can argue that frost is a bit beter on aoe packs i've yet to experiece any major difference or between or issues while aoe tanking as blood, as for single target tanking, zero difference in survivability, as for raid utility blood has more then frost. (raid heal, ap buff, single dps buff)

    Also i browsed over this thread and haven't seen anyone tell you it's 'fail' to be a frost tank, it's okay to dislike change but this isn't a bad thing at all for DK tanks.

  15. #35
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    As long as the developers have a concrete plan in mind, I would be happy. WotLK seemed like a bunch of ideas tossed around the water cooler. Mostly novel ideas poorly thought out. Hence the constant changes to the trees... mostly the Frost tree.

    I tank Blood now mostly because I had to. Frost was gutted for a while, thus I had to move on or risk being side-lined. Never really went back to it even though I started out as Frost on XP day. Call it a bad divorce that makes me once bitten, twice shy. At this juncture, it's all about stamina anyways. Whichever tree affords the most stamina is the tanking tree. That would be Blood. Got nothing against Frost, but I'm sick of being gutted and that tree is always prime for being gutted.

  16. #36
    Now given some time to digest the information, I suppose it's not quite so horrible that Blood has been chosen as the tank tree. I'll hold back on declaring Death Knight tanking "Ruined FOREVER" until the full scope of the changes have been released, which will be tomorrow. I'm still going to maintain a large amount of skepticism about it all, and I'm expecting blood to get a complete overhaul which is despertately needs as a tanking tree. If it were not for the fact that most tanks use blood simply because it has more health and more recently a useful buff to Will of the Necropolis.... well, things could've been quite different. What if frost was built as a 2h tree, with more health? Wasn't it originally planned as the tanking tree anyhow? I suppose it came down to choosing between a more traditional tanking spec (frost) and something rather unique (blood), and the idea of a unique tanking tree seems to be the only sensible reason.

    But yes, Blood needs an overhaul. The tanking skills are split between all three trees, cumulating some of Frost's benefits which it currently has will help out Blood immensely. Those being some extra mitagation, though it should be expected that Blood Presence to become the new tanking presence as well. But Blood is currently built as a DPS tree if anything else. Dark Conviction, Bloody Vengeance, Abomination's Might, Blood Gorged (this last one is important, the tree's "passive" damage bonus condition should probably still be there but attached to something else). All DPS talents, and most aren't that useful for tanking (Abom's might seems to be the only one which really helps tanks, low-ish crit rate and constantly fluctuating health limits the usefulness of many of those talents). The lacking AoE damage/threat is also very well known. It's one of the reasons Frost is so useful & superior for tanking anything outside of raid bosses (which seems to be the only area Blood has ANY advantage in for tanking right now). Another key issue, which may be my playstyle preferrence more than anything, is the fact Blood is not that fun to play. The very idea of spamming Heart Strike is just not fun, no "oomph" to it and no variance. Frost tanking has the option to mix things up a bit. A lot of things need to be addressed, but assuming they are.... things might not be so bad. With healing not being a matter of getting up so quickly in Cata, Blood makes some more sense. Vampiric Blood becomes more valuable as a cooldown, and the steady stream of self-healing will be nice as well.

    Just to speculate a bit, there is a fairly quick (or at least clear) solution to the lacking AoE threat for Blood. Quite simply, a new AoE spell named Blood Nova. Taken directly from the Deathbringer Saurfang encounter, it's actually very similiar functionally to Howling Blast. Both require a target, which gets hit by it and everything around them. Assuming that Blood will get a different condition for Blood Gorged (though likely subject to a name change), like applying a disease, it makes sense for Blood Nova to apply it. Exactly how a glyphed Howling Blast works right now for Frost Tanking. A band-aid solution of sorts, or pre-planned and hinted at?


    The solutions to Blood's spammy-ness.... well, I'm not sure. But they'll have to solve that somehow. If not, my DK tank will almost certainly be shelved -- permanently.

    That's another reason why Frost is still a popular tank spec, it's more fun. A subjective thing as always, but it's also what keeps a lot of Prot Warriors going too. Being "the best" tank class or spec keeps some people happy, but not all. A lot of people like Frost over Blood simply because it's more fun. IF blood can be made more fun to play as a tank spec, rather than your typical meatshield with the perk of self-healing? That will probably quell a lot of the complaints. If not, don't be suprised if a LOT of DK tanks end up leaving the class. I have a prot warrior myself, about on par gear-wise as my warrior. A crossroads, choosing which to work on more with.... so these changes are rather important. Frost tanking right now is fun, blood tanking is not. Prot warriors are also fun.... whomever ends up the most fun, wins.

    So all that's left to do is wait for the full announcement from Blizz, and maybe waiting until we try it out for ourselves.
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  17. #37
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    With a bit of talent-tree rehashing they can keep DW tanking viable as long as the essential talents for it aren't deep into the frost tree.
    Like someone noticed, given that the presence used for tanking is frost i do find it a bit surprising that blood was chosen for tanking, oh well.

    Not much else i can say with the information i have at hand right now - all i can do is wait to see how the DK talent trees will look exactly. I do however understand people who have been playing blood DPS and like the straight-forwards rotation of it (and dislike DW frost burst/proc'y style or UH dot/pet style) being concerned; as well as frost tanks being concerned about how theirs snap aggro/mitigation-oriented/DW build will be "merged" into a tree that is focused more on larger health pools and more self-heals.
    The core DK playstyle won't change much in the end though, it will just lose a bit of variety in favour of better development of role.

  18. #38
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    I'm very upset with this change, and tired of Blizzard being lazy. I don't rib on them often, I don't sit there and QQ. I'm quite justified in saying that they're simply giving up. I won't be able to DW Tank in Cata most likely, thus my Blog post. No more DK Tanking for me come Cata, it simply won't be fun anymore.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baervar View Post
    With a bit of talent-tree rehashing they can keep DW tanking viable as long as the essential talents for it aren't deep into the frost tree.
    Like someone noticed, given that the presence used for tanking is frost i do find it a bit surprising that blood was chosen for tanking, oh well.
    Yes, they could do that, but they likely won't. All of the posts from Blizzard developers have suggested that they intend to make Frost a DW Tree and Blood a 2-hander tree. There were some posts that suggested they wanted 2-hand to be a viable option for Frost, but nothing to suggest that Blood would ever support DW. GC's post in that thread was likely a response to appease people like me who are upset that they will no longer be able to DW Tank. Whether or not they care enough about what we want in the class to make those changes is to be seen, but I highly doubt it.

    When WotLK came out, Frost was often misconstrued as the "Tank" spec, mostly because of Frost Presence and the fact that it was, arguably, the best Tank spec for DKs until Blizzard fixed Blood. Frost should be the tank tree come Cata, but it won't be because Blood Tanking is already balanced towards their new vision. They'll have far less work to do to make the Blood tree the "Tank" tree than Frost. Like I said, it's laziness. I love Blizzard, I really do, but there's no way that they can justify a lot of their recent choices, especially this one about DKs, as anything other than laziness.

  20. #40
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    I'm a little bummed we lose some versatility, even though they were sub-optimal I still enjoyed tinkering with specs. I might have to do a Frost or Unholy build one last time just for ICC10 this week as a final farewell
    This probably needed to happen, and a LOT of people were predicting this before it got posted. The Mastery changes need a single tree to balance tanking due to the passive benefits, and this should solve the problem of swinging from Hero to Zero every patch.
    This makes the DK announcement later this week a bit more interesting for sure.

    People are getting way too bent out of shape about "losing my fav dps/tank spec", you have no idea how the class is going to play in Cataclysm. Within this expansion alone the DK has morphed completely from play styles. You might be sad about losing something you like now, but to say you "hate" the changes coming with out even seeing them is a bit short sighted.

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