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Thread: Balanced Dispel Mechanics Among Healers in Cataclysm

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    Balanced Dispel Mechanics Among Healers in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarhym
    [Blizzard]We wanted to introduce some of the changes to dispel mechanics coming in Cataclysm. Our goals were to make dispelling a little less trivial to do in PvP, and to make sure there is more equity in dispel capabilities among healers in both PvP and PvE. [/Blizzard]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarhym
    [Blizzard]Within the system, there are currently five types of dispellable (or curable) buffs and debuffs: curse, disease, poison, defensive magic, and offensive magic. An example of defensive magic dispelling would be using a dispel to free a polymorphed ally, while offensive magic dispelling would be utilizing a dispel ability to strip away an enemyís buff or heal-over-time (HoT) spell. The main distinction between these two types is in whether or not you can target an enemy with your dispel.

    In Cataclysm each healing class will be getting three out of the five types of dispels, with one of these always being a defensive dispel magic. This design makes sure that finding a healer with the ability to remove magic isnít restrictive in building teams for Arenas or rated Battlegrounds. It also allows the encounter designers to assume, when designing dungeon or raid fights, that every group can dispel magic.

    In addition, we're making the opportunity cost (what the player could have accomplished with different actions) for dispelling a bit steeper. We think the cost is too low for three reasons: 1) The actual mana cost is low. 2) You never waste a dispel. If you try to dispel a debuff that isnít there then the dispel just wonít go off. 3) We have spells that remove debuffs with minimal input on the part of the player. In Cataclysm we are raising the mana costs, making it possible to waste mana by casting a dispel when there is nothing to dispel, and removing Cleansing Totem, Abolish Disease, and Abolish Poison from the game. With these changes in mind, we are working to plan dungeon and raid encounters where dispels arenít in constant demand or spammed in order to be successful, though some need for dispels will still be a part of the design.

    As previously mentioned, we are providing three dispel capabilities to all healing classes as follows:
    • Druids will be able to dispel defensive magic, curses, and poison.
    • Paladins will be able to dispel defensive magic, diseases, and poison.
    • Priests will be able to dispel defensive magic, offensive magic, and disease.
    • Shaman will be able to dispel defensive magic, offensive magic, and curses.

    There is some trade-off that is being made in making these changes and we wanted to expand on this further.
    • Protection and Retribution paladins will lose their current ability to dispel magic.
    • All shaman will lose dispel disease and dispel poison in exchange for Restoration gaining dispel magic.
    • Restoration shaman, Restoration druids, and Holy paladins will need to talent into their defensive magic dispels.
    • Shadow priests wonít be able to remove disease in Shadowform.
    • Mage, hunter, and warlock will retain their current dispel mechanics.
    • Body and Soul remains the same, and basically any dispel mechanic not mentioned above is currently planned to remain as it is.
    • When possible, weíd like to combine dispels into a single action. For example, the druid ability to dispel curses and poisons might be a single spell with a Restoration talent that also allows it to dispel magic. This part of the design isnít finalized, however.

    As with all of our Cataclysm previews, keep in mind that any of these decisions could change when weíre in beta. [/Blizzard]
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...38610691&sid=1

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    Looks like a step in the right direction towards making healing less spammy and more about mana management. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if some clever add-on creators cooked something up that ensured you didn't cast dispels on targets with nothing to dispel.

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    In Cataclysm we are raising the mana costs, making it possible to waste mana by casting a dispel when there is nothing to dispel, and removing Cleansing Totem, Abolish Disease, and Abolish Poison from the game. With these changes in mind, we are working to plan dungeon and raid encounters where dispels aren’t in constant demand or spammed in order to be successful, though some need for dispels will still be a part of the design.
    Wow, those are huge.

    Protection and Retribution paladins will lose their current ability to dispel magic.
    This one just seems wrong. A good ret paladin in a PVE setting can make such a difference by doing the little things such as dispells and freedoms. I really do not like this change at all, removes to much utility from a class that is already to easy to play.

    When possible, we’d like to combine dispels into a single action. For example, the druid ability to dispel curses and poisons might be a single spell with a Restoration talent that also allows it to dispel magic. This part of the design isn’t finalized, however.
    Good, paladins have had the monopoly on this for to long.



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    Here is the communicative problem with these posts: All the information given is out of context without full disclosure of other changes. For example, ret and prot paladins loose the ability to dispel magic. This, by itself, seems like a crippling change. However, when you consider the myriad of other changes that could be done for these specs, it may seem like a good trade-off (i.e.- an interrupt).

    Though I'm not a huge PvPer, I can see some frustration with the concept of "tactical" dispelling when your target has 5+ debuffs that you have to cycle through to remove the one you wish to get rid of. Without major changes to other class mechanics, stack-able debuffs will be too expensive to remove.

    From a PvE perspective, it has little real impact for healers, if they follow up with the encounter changes they proposed. It could also lead to some interesting encounter designs, where dispelling is the primary job of healers over healing.

    My biggest contention from a design perspective is "forcing" healers into speccing for their dispels and thus removing the ability for certain specs to dispel. This is clearly a PvP change and removes PvE utility from hybrid specs, while "pure" DPS classes retain their dispel mechanics. A compromise would be to have all dispels have a short cooldown, while the "healing" tree provides a removal of said cooldown. Of course, priests are the special snowflake that have two healing trees, hence the clunky "fix" for shadow priests.

    I hope this is revisited in beta, as their caveat suggests. I understand the idea behind their proposal, I just am not able to truly give a full opinion until I am privy to the entire body of changes for those specs/classes affected.
    Last edited by Spiritus; 04-05-2010 at 08:01 PM.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    This one just seems wrong. A good ret paladin in a PVE setting can make such a difference by doing the little things such as dispells and freedoms. I really do not like this change at all, removes to much utility from a class that is already to easy to play.
    Agreed. I've always felt that self-cleansing was one of the unique aspects I have as a pally tank.


    Such a change will also be rough at low levels, where healers may no be "properly" specced while using the LFD tool. Unless the dispel talents are on row one, which could defeat the purpose if some end-game specs have the points to spare to grab it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post
    Such a change will also be rough at low levels, where healers may no be "properly" specced while using the LFD tool. Unless the dispel talents are on row one, which could defeat the purpose if some end-game specs have the points to spare to grab it.
    Interesting point, I had not thought of that. Perhaps they will retool lower level encounters?



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    That's what we have to assume. Or the application of debuffs is getting redesigned entirely, as well. Rarer, use for specific purposes, or something like that.

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    I do realize that we've only had a few glimpses of the planned changes for Cataclysm, but I do have one concern from reading this regarding Retribution. I do need to be clear that it is not a whine and that a solution or change might be around that we're not aware of. With Prot and Ret Paladins no longer being able to dispel magic, won't this create an even worse situation in PvP with some classes being able to kite the paladin around?
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    Yeah, its such a glaring problem that I can only assume that they have something else planned to address this. Or, conversely, they could be balancing everything around having a healer, which kinda lines up with their "don't balance around 1v1 or 2v2" kick. It would be exceptionally frustrating as a ret paladin to fight several classes w/o a dispel 1v1, and would supposedly provide a bigger drawback for 2v2 "burst" teams.

    Either way, there just really isn't enough information out about Cata changes to know for sure.



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    Not sure if it's that big of a deal currently with low level instances. Quite often in these instances you're a class that can't deal with some nasty debuff. Like the curses in Shadow Fang Keep and you don't have say a druid or mage. Or some of those lengthy diseases which are annoying, and you lack a priest, paladin or shammy.

    These changes are interesting and make me very curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruisedOoze View Post
    Not sure if it's that big of a deal currently with low level instances. Quite often in these instances you're a class that can't deal with some nasty debuff. Like the curses in Shadow Fang Keep and you don't have say a druid or mage. Or some of those lengthy diseases which are annoying, and you lack a priest, paladin or shammy.

    These changes are interesting and make me very curious.
    Honestly, I can't think of a place besides Shadowfang Keep off hand where dispels would really matter much (probably because it is late for me). Then keep in mind SFK is being re-tooled to be a heroic so it becomes less of a issue.

  12. #12
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    Well as a prot pally I can tell you already 2 raid bosses where it will be quite enoying to not be able to dispell magic: Steelbreaker's Fusion Punch and the Frostbolt of Deathwhisper. Specially since we have only 1 reliable interrupt every 45 seconds.

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    Shaman will be able to dispel defensive magic, offensive magic, and curses.
    At first glance, I'm an unhappy shammy. I liked being able to dispel poisons and diseases.

    I'm hoping that an inability to dispel these won't be crippling in cata. As it is right now, not being able to dispel one of these schools is either trivial or AMG WE'RE GUNNA DIE CUZ I CANT DISPEL, depending on the encounter. Being able to dispel curses doesn't come up nearly as often as poison or diseases, at least in PvE.

    They say they're going to make it so dispels aren't as critical, I hope they don't mean they're just going to make the need less frequent, but when needed, will still be semi-catastrophic if you can't dispel a certain type of debuff.

    This design makes sure that finding a healer with the ability to remove magic isn’t restrictive in building teams for Arenas or rated Battlegrounds. It also allows the encounter designers to assume, when designing dungeon or raid fights, that every group can dispel magic.
    I must be missing something here. If they're going to make magic dispelling more commonly needed in cata, that's one thing, but I can't think of many boss fights in WotLK where no magic dispelling = wipe. Yet they've worded it in such a way that it sounds like they're implying this was somehow crippling or a major stumbling block in raid comps and encounter design. I'm not seeing it.

    Again, am I missing something here?

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    I'm not sure I like it either that they're removing the ability to dispel for non-healer hybrids. Sometimes there's a lot going on during a boss encounter and it helps the healers out a lot if the dps can help cleanse/dispel. If they're increasing the cost to dispel I hope they balance the amount of dispelling required. Not that trash matters much, but in ICC there's some trash that put out curses and promptly reapply it as soon as it's removed or shortly after. I can think of 5 mans where this might be a problem also. I recently did HoR on my Prot Paladin and was the only one that could dispel some of the magic debuffs the bosses did.

    I didn't see it mentioned that Feral/Balance Druids would be losing the ability to decurse or cleanse poison, only that they would need to spec into the Resto tree to gain the ability to dispel defensive magic. I would think the change would be the same as Paladins and Shamans though and they would lose it.

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    With these changes in mind, we are working to plan dungeon and raid encounters where dispels aren’t in constant demand or spammed in order to be successful, though some need for dispels will still be a part of the design.
    I guess I missed that part, but to me that could still be open to interpretation. There's a difference between dispelling being necessary to complete the encounter (LK comes to mind) and just making it more difficult if you can't afford to dispel everything. There could still be encounters where a lot of debuffs are going out and you have to choose between the cost of dispelling it or letting it go and dealing with the possible consequences. I have some mixed feeling on that idea but it might work in our favor if healers don't feel like they're required to dispel everything that's being thrown out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    At first glance, I'm an unhappy shammy. I liked being able to dispel poisons and diseases.

    I'm hoping that an inability to dispel these won't be crippling in cata. As it is right now, not being able to dispel one of these schools is either trivial or AMG WE'RE GUNNA DIE CUZ I CANT DISPEL, depending on the encounter. Being able to dispel curses doesn't come up nearly as often as poison or diseases, at least in PvE.

    They say they're going to make it so dispels aren't as critical, I hope they don't mean they're just going to make the need less frequent, but when needed, will still be semi-catastrophic if you can't dispel a certain type of debuff.



    I must be missing something here. If they're going to make magic dispelling more commonly needed in cata, that's one thing, but I can't think of many boss fights in WotLK where no magic dispelling = wipe. Yet they've worded it in such a way that it sounds like they're implying this was somehow crippling or a major stumbling block in raid comps and encounter design. I'm not seeing it.

    Again, am I missing something here?
    For the same reason all the tanking classes are more or less even in LK. Blizzard does not want to force a guild to have 1 of every tank class so they don't design encounters that way. Although even for a 10 man raid I find it hard to believe you would not have at least 1 dispel. I am thinking something like noth in 60-naxx is where they were headed with that line of though (obviously that was a curse but same idea)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    For the same reason all the tanking classes are more or less even in LK. Blizzard does not want to force a guild to have 1 of every tank class so they don't design encounters that way. Although even for a 10 man raid I find it hard to believe you would not have at least 1 dispel. I am thinking something like noth in 60-naxx is where they were headed with that line of though (obviously that was a curse but same idea)
    It's very doable, all druid and shaman healers = no defensive magic dispel. All priest and paladin heals (and obviously no mages or druids period) = no curse dispel. In a 10 man, it is especially apparent as you only bring in 2-3 healers at most. A balanced 10 man will probably not see this problem, but I've rarely, if ever, ran a balanced 10 man.

    On a side note, I wonder what they are planning to do about Mass Dispel? I'd imagine increase the mana cost (ugh) so we can't just spam it.

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    Sounds to me like all dispells that are necessary to encounters will be magic and that curses, poisons, and diseases will be dispells that are optional to make encounters easier, but not required.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliena View Post

    Originally Posted by Zarhym

    Mage, hunter, and warlock will retain their current dispel mechanics.
    I expect warriors' shield slam to fall into this category. From what I see on the offcial forums thread, the question has been asked, but not answered yet.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Zarhym
    If we didn’t mention a specific dispel mechanic (like Shield Slam), then you can assume it probably isn’t changing, at least for now. A lot may change in beta.

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