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Thread: Paly tanks and Hit cap

  1. #1
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    Paly tanks and Hit cap

    I have heard this go both ways...Should a paladin tank bother with getting hit cap?

    I ask because the people who are telling me not worry about it are telling me to basically only gem for stamina and so I'm at a loss as to which is the correct course of action.

  2. #2
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    Take what you can get on your gear, but don't go out of your way to gem or enchant for it. Not being hit capped isn't going to have a large impact on your threat and it's more important to gem for survival first.

  3. #3
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    i assume by enchant you also mean the titanium weapon chain as well so i should probably seek out a new weapon chant

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    It depends what you're doing. I'll admit that I use the Titanium Weapon Chain on my Paladin tank but it's just an alt that runs heroic 5 mans currently and until I get a 245+ weapon I don't feel like spending gold for something better. There's also 20 hit to gloves, but I'm sure most would agree that +18 stam armor kit is better for tanking unless you're an Engineer. Icewalker is not even worth discussing because stamina to boots is the only tank enchant.

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    Currently using the Armsman Enchant on my gloves...is that not correct? and mats are not an issue for me so il probably go ahead and get something not hit focused now

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    I can't answer that for sure, and there's probably several threads between Tankspot and the WoW forums on the Armsman vs. 18 stam debate that could provide better information. From what I've read on the topic most tanks are in favor of the 18 stam but it seems to be personal preference. I would say that the 18 stam wins over 10 parry, but the 2% threat is more difficult to measure. If threat is rarely an issue then choose the 18 stam.

  7. #7
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    Well i appreciate the help man

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    Tuskarr's Vitality is hands down the best boot enchant for a tank. +15 Stamina & Movement Speed Increase.

    +240 Armor to gloves (or +885 engineer if you have it) or +18 Stamina are the best glove options.

    Weapon, go blood draining when you have a quality one your going to keep for a bit.

    For hit just take what you get on your gear through the natural course of upgrades, do not gem, enchant, or make gearing choices based on + hit.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=Bodasafa;397255]Weapon, go blood draining when you have a quality one your going to keep for a bit.[QUOTE]

    I would go for mongoose, As palladins gain more from actuel agi then some other classes (ex. Warrior). Further more blood draining is only really usefull in spike damage fights so if your not having troubles with those fights i would either recommend Blade Ward (the parry increase is great and it does damage on parry as well) or mongoose if you like to go for some more dodge avoidance. I would pressume your on ICC fights at the moment so the -20% dodge is a pain and it applys before DR so you would be just a bit better off with the mongoose enchant then the parry enchant (if your really low on parry (ex. 19% or such) then i would say Blade ward over mongoose).

    Though getting caps is never wrong, But in ICC i think its smart to go for stammina, but if your fine with your healers you could go for some more avoidance
    There is no "ctrl" on Fluxx his keyboard... Fluxx is always in control.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluxx View Post
    I would go for mongoose, As palladins gain more from actuel agi then some other classes (ex. Warrior). Further more blood draining is only really usefull in spike damage fights so if your not having troubles with those fights i would either recommend Blade Ward (the parry increase is great and it does damage on parry as well) or mongoose if you like to go for some more dodge avoidance. I would pressume your on ICC fights at the moment so the -20% dodge is a pain and it applys before DR so you would be just a bit better off with the mongoose enchant then the parry enchant (if your really low on parry (ex. 19% or such) then i would say Blade ward over mongoose). Though getting caps is never wrong, But in ICC i think its smart to go for stammina, but if your fine with your healers you could go for some more avoidance
    I'm sorry I don't want to spark another Avoidance vs. EH argument but... This information is incorrect.

    Chill of the Throne is applied after Diminishing Returns. The only reason Mongoose is even a viable choice is due to the Armor you gain from it, not the Dodge.

    What I should have said is "Weapon, go for Blood Draining or Mongoose when you have a quality one your going to keep for a bit"

    Bladeward is not an enchant, its a waste of enchanting mats. There is absolutely no situation in ICC 10 or 25 where this is a better enchant over Mongoose or Blood Draining.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  11. #11
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    Here's an option, Go for Glyph of Righteous Defence to increase the chance your Hand of Reckoning and Righteous Defence work successfully by 8%, so you taunts are effectivly hit capped, which mean you can stack a heap load of stamina, wack a Shifting Dreadstone in a red socket (10 Agility % 15 Stamina) to activate the meta gem Austere Earthsiege Diamond (32 Stamina and 2% increased armor value from items). That with Mongoose on top is a very efficiant set up imo, i use it and never have any trouble with aggro or avoidence with any encounter.
    Hope this helps

  12. #12
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    I find that enchanting ur weapon with the enchant accuracy helps, Especially when u have your 264 libram which stack on sheild of the righteous and if u have no hit it wont stack so easily

  13. #13
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    Stamina vs Dodge

    Another heateed debate on my server is how pallys should socket their gear recently i have stacked the 30 stam gems and 1 red +20 dodge gem to activate my meta gem but there is a debate about dodge to stam pallys wat has worked the best for u guys?

  14. #14
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    Main weapon enchants should be Mongoose, Accuracy, Blade Ward, and Blood Draining. Obviously each has their flavor and preference. I tend to use Mongoose and Accuracy, but currently I'm testing out Blood Draining so myself and Guild master can see how well it possibly works.

    Hit rating is not something you necessarily want to go out of your way for, as bling said take what hit rating your gear gives you and use that, but dont' hestitate to save other pieces of gear that have hit for the times you really do need it. I believe Expertise has shown quite a bit of value recently with most paladin skills being parry/dodge able. You should mostly gem for stamina. However in some cases where there is a high socket bonus, or the single socket is a red socket. It does not hurt to gem with the 10 agi/15 stam dreadstone.

    Another option, probably not mentioned ever is to use the +20 agility enchant on the gloves. Again there are comparable and better enchants than this out there.

    To Boda: where did you find the +240 Bonus armor to gloves? I'm blind and cannot find where this is at.
    Last edited by Tazlex; 04-03-2010 at 10:58 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgtbelf View Post
    Another heateed debate on my server is how pallys should socket their gear recently i have stacked the 30 stam gems and 1 red +20 dodge gem to activate my meta gem but there is a debate about dodge to stam pallys wat has worked the best for u guys?
    Not really much of a heated debate, Health will always trump dodge as far as gems go. Why you say because dodge only effects physical hits and is random and health is a constant. That solid dodge gem should be a hybrid of stam with either dodge or agi (we benefit more from agi than all other tanks except druids). Anyone who is trying to make up for lost dodge due to radiance is fighting an up hill battle since diminishing returns is in effect so you are working from a DR of 20% from the get go. There just is no way you can reach complete coverage without having insufficient HP.

    General rule of thumb: when in doubt socket stamina

  16. #16
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    Okay let me clear up the air here on a lot of things. There is some misinformation, misleading information, and some really good advice here in this thread:

    Weapon enchant: For paladins, the uptime of Mongoose is extremely high due to SoV and pallies also get more dodge from agi than warriors do. Therefore overall, Mongoose is better avoidance for pallies than blade warding and it gives crit and most importantly 240 armor. This is good. HAVING SAID THAT, I am a huge proponent of blood draining more and more. Blood draining is a 2k smart heal when you need it, period. That is the only EH enchant out there and it would have to be reduced to something like 14% efficiency to be EQUAL to Mongoose in terms of EH. For progression, enchant blood draining, hands down it's the best in my opinion, however I wouldn't scoff at a pally using mongoose. IMO Accuracy has no place on a tank's weapon unless they're having some serious threat issues (which they shouldn't be) or are just tanking 5 man heroics and EHP doesn't matter that much so they only need threat.

    AGI vs Dodge: For paladins, you will get more bang for your buck from AGI than from dodge. AGi gives something like 93% the amount of dodge that dodge rating does point for point for paladins, and gives you armor and a little crit. Gem 10agi/15stam in any red socket with a +9 stam bonus or better that only requires 1 red gem. This is a great way to activate your meta, you shouldn't gem straight agi or straight dodge, use hybrid gems.

    Avoidance vs. EH: This is beating a dead horse, no one's really be arguing this debate, but I'm going to quash it right now before it spirals into that again like it always does. Gem/gear/enchant for stam and armor. Stam stam stamity stam stam stam. /signed Stam Czar

    Hit Rating (the original question). You shouldn't need any hit rating for threat reasons. If you do then you're doing something wrong spec/rotation wise. The only thing you need hit for is to ensure taunts don't miss on fights where it is necessary. There is a table at the bottom of my guide (foot note 3, link in sig) that gives a breakdown of the hit levels you need with various buffs to ensure your taunts don't miss. Remember, taunt is based off of SPELL HIT, not melee hit. The 8% glyph is huge and really that + whatever you have innately on gear SHOULD be enough, if not then just use your other taunt.

    Expertise: Paladins can use glyph of SoV (I think that's the right one) and get +10 expertise, so getting to the soft cap of 26 should be no problem and there's really no reason to do anything else.

    Enchant overview:
    Gloves: 18 stam or 240 armor, don't enchant anything else, these are both leatherworking kits
    Weapon: Blood draining or if you just REALLY REALLY LOVE green lightening, then mongoose.
    Boots: 22 stam for paladins, not Tuskarr's Vitality, prot pallies generally spec into PoJ and the enchant runspeed does not stack and isn't as good

    Otherwise: what bod said.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  17. #17
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    Aggathon is right on the money for progression tanking.

    If you're not in ICC (or are just doing the first wing of it), then you would probably be better served by gemming to 9 stam socket bonuses and using the Hodir enchant. EH is still your first priority, but you're not in a situation where you need to wring out every last drop of it. A great resource is http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic - Digren's Maintankalevels (from Maintankadin), which will help you figure out how to gem and enchant your gear for the content you're doing. As always, there is no one-size-fits-all strategy for tank gearing, you should adjust according to your situation.

    Hit is not something you should worry too much about as a prot pally. Maybe get a little bit of it if you're a fresh 80 and having threat issues, but otherwise don't really seek it out.

  18. #18
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    I see Digren finally re-did his guides so they're not completely effing retarded now, that makes me happy. I still think he vastly overvalues 22/23 agi to cloak though and significantly undervalues 225 armor to cloak. Other than that it looks like his re-vamped gemming/enchanting guide is actually very solid now (I was VERY unhappy with his previous one). Edit: bleh, looks like he still advocates 20 def to shield over 18 stam to shield, boo hiss, at least he finally got 275 HP to chest correct, that one REALLY bothered me and I saw several pallies walking around with 10 stats based directly from his previous enchanting "guide."
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Okay let me clear up the air here on a lot of things. There is some misinformation, misleading information, and some really good advice here in this thread:

    Weapon enchant: For paladins, the uptime of Mongoose is extremely high due to SoV and pallies also get more dodge from agi than warriors do. Therefore overall, Mongoose is better avoidance for pallies than blade warding and it gives crit and most importantly 240 armor. This is good. HAVING SAID THAT, I am a huge proponent of blood draining more and more. Blood draining is a 2k smart heal when you need it, period. That is the only EH enchant out there and it would have to be reduced to something like 14% efficiency to be EQUAL to Mongoose in terms of EH. For progression, enchant blood draining, hands down it's the best in my opinion, however I wouldn't scoff at a pally using mongoose. IMO Accuracy has no place on a tank's weapon unless they're having some serious threat issues (which they shouldn't be) or are just tanking 5 man heroics and EHP doesn't matter that much so they only need threat.

    AGI vs Dodge: For paladins, you will get more bang for your buck from AGI than from dodge. AGi gives something like 93% the amount of dodge that dodge rating does point for point for paladins, and gives you armor and a little crit. Gem 10agi/15stam in any red socket with a +9 stam bonus or better that only requires 1 red gem. This is a great way to activate your meta, you shouldn't gem straight agi or straight dodge, use hybrid gems.

    Avoidance vs. EH: This is beating a dead horse, no one's really be arguing this debate, but I'm going to quash it right now before it spirals into that again like it always does. Gem/gear/enchant for stam and armor. Stam stam stamity stam stam stam. /signed Stam Czar

    Hit Rating (the original question). You shouldn't need any hit rating for threat reasons. If you do then you're doing something wrong spec/rotation wise. The only thing you need hit for is to ensure taunts don't miss on fights where it is necessary. There is a table at the bottom of my guide (foot note 3, link in sig) that gives a breakdown of the hit levels you need with various buffs to ensure your taunts don't miss. Remember, taunt is based off of SPELL HIT, not melee hit. The 8% glyph is huge and really that + whatever you have innately on gear SHOULD be enough, if not then just use your other taunt.

    Expertise: Paladins can use glyph of SoV (I think that's the right one) and get +10 expertise, so getting to the soft cap of 26 should be no problem and there's really no reason to do anything else.

    Enchant overview:
    Gloves: 18 stam or 240 armor, don't enchant anything else, these are both leatherworking kits
    Weapon: Blood draining or if you just REALLY REALLY LOVE green lightening, then mongoose.
    Boots: 22 stam for paladins, not Tuskarr's Vitality, prot pallies generally spec into PoJ and the enchant runspeed does not stack and isn't as good

    Otherwise: what bod said.



    THANK YOU VERY MUCH! No offense to anyone in the thread at all. the last few days have been hell trying to dig through all the debates to get some GOOD, SOLID Information.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intervention View Post
    THANK YOU VERY MUCH! No offense to anyone in the thread at all. the last few days have been hell trying to dig through all the debates to get some GOOD, SOLID Information.
    Ya, things have gotten muddled recently and unless you were a part of the debates/discussions sometimes it's hard to find exactly what you're looking for. I'm considering revamping my guide to include more information like this so that the information is in a more centralized location.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

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