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Thread: Starved for offensive stats - What can I leave behind?

  1. #21
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    I run with 13 expertise. The closest I come to gearing offensive stats is being hit-capped on taunt-sensitive fights, like saurfang heroic, lich king tanking (RAGING SPIRITS FFFFF), dreakwalker, putricide, festergut, sindragosa, and even on those fights, I only have to swap one piece of gear and eat hit food to be capped.

    Offensive stats were more relevant in naxx, when our devestate/revenge weren't quite as strong as they are now. Luckily, we've got tons of threat at our disposal, and very few fights in ICC require fast threat ramp-ups. BQL is the closest, and even that fight doesn't give me issues with or without tricks.

    Keep in mind that most fights have other stuff for people to do. Switching to bone spikes, dpsing slimes, running away from shit, running towards shit, it's all basically free threat time for you.

  2. #22
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    Yeah I dont think my raid is bad. We are 6/12 heroic 25 and 10/12 heroic 10. And we still have bosses up this week.

    Initial threat is an issue. You have to be able to keep adds for specific fights. Princes is a great example... people are going to go nuts and charge generally runs you right past the boss. Getting raging spirits for LK is another example. Having the ability to climb the threat meter as a warrior for Heroic Lady Deathwhisper is another. Missing and getting parried there is terrible when you have to get to 2nd place and you dont have a ton of rage. Adds on Dreamwalker.... they have to be BURST down... but you have to pick up 2-3 at once. You simply cant afford to miss. In MANY of these situations, you cannot count on a misdirect or a ToTT.

    Saying threat is only an issue for bad raids is pretty short sighted. Threat, like any other component in the game, must be managed. If the game was all Festergut fights, your analysis might be correct. But its not.... and there is a place for threat stats for tanks.

    As a matter of fact, what kind of raid dps DOESNT put some kind of pressure on tanks? If you have guys destroying meters (like in my guild), you better be thinking about threat.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unger View Post
    .

    As a matter of fact, what kind of raid dps DOESNT put some kind of pressure on tanks? If you have guys destroying meters (like in my guild), you better be thinking about threat.
    The point is if your threat is bad to begin with more stats will do very little for you. Threat is about rotation and talents. Having 26 expertise is up to preference. You're on heroic 25 man? Look at the threat stats for tanks in Paragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  4. #24
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    I just logged into Xav's character to make a point. He is, like most warrior tanks, in 4 piece T10. He has mostly armor pieces.... but instead of the typical Pillars of Might, he has the Leggards of Lost Hope on (heroic). One of the best warrior tanks in the entire world has actually geared for hit. He is at 307 hit and 16 expertise.

    Listen, youre trying to make a point.... but you're just wrong. If you want hit for taunts or for threat, the fact is the same. Tanks adjust their gear for the specific fight to min/max the event and give themselves the best chance to win. I dont know for sure.... but I am willing to bet that most end game tanks working on heroic 25s (and even 10s) have 7-8 sets of gear. At least one of those sets will be for threat. The reason why is for the exact reason the OP asked for help. To ensure that they dont have a miss/dodge/parry at the beginning of any fight. We also need taunts to land.

    Your response to the original poster was that he shouldnt have to worry about it. Then you responded to my comment that any raid that needs this isnt a good raid. I submit to you that neither of these comments is accurate. There is a place in this game for tanks to have to concern themselves with threat. Perhaps not like they used to in TBC, but a tricks/MD isnt always available. I have mages and rogues in my gulid that can rip off of anyone.....

    I took a look at your characters achievements and it doesnt appear that you are tanking in heroics. That means that you are probably not having to hold off dps that is capable of heroics. I suggest that you be open to the possibility that threat mechanics should not be ignored and that there is a time and place for them, just like everything else.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  5. #25
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    Even though I am now retired, I did step in to tank H-Blood Princes and that's a pretty bad example imo. The beginning threat a little bit sure, but TotT should make up for that.

    Xav is probably going for hit since he's using the 5/15/51 spec for survival for progression and thusly doesn't have impale/dw, but I am kind of confused since he's using glyph of taunt and with just glyph you only need 237 hit and melee hit cap is 264, so he's way over both caps.

    Maybe he just has glyph of taunt in atm but wants to be taunt capped if he drops it for another glyph for something else.

    You really can't look at 1 specific tank and say "oh I'm gonna do what he does" because it can vary per encounter and he could be trying various combinations to kill H-LK25.

    Also all 277 tanks should go for the 4 set, that has nothing to do with hit, or threat, or whatever. Why he's using those legs is kind of confusing unless he just wants the increased stam for the spell damage in the LK fight... actually... I bet that's what he's doing, those have more stam than pillars of might by 32. Add in the modifiers for the ICC buff and do the EHP calcs for magical damage and I bet those legs are better.

    It's my official conclusion that Xav is stacking stam for H-LK25 and has nothing to do with hit levels.
    If he wants to come prove me wrong, then by all means, but based on his setup there's absolutely not reason to wear those legs for hit because even with out them he's over the taunt hit cap and almost to the melee hit cap just because of the hit levels that come on ICC25 gear.

    Edit: also my guild is 10/12 hardmode and we got US 8th putricide? Does that make me more credible than you? (hint: experience is sometimes a bad argument)
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  6. #26
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    Im not trying to say that you need to have all world experience to contribute.... but heroic dps is definitely another animal than regular dps. If youre downing BQ on heroic, your people bring it hard.

    My point with Xav wasnt that he was stacking hit for anything other than he is adjusting to specific fights. We should all do that.... including threat mechanics.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  7. #27
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    Ya, but he's not doing it for threat mechanics, in fact his gearing suggests that he is doing the exact opposite and he is gearing for as much survivability as possible even if the gear that gives him the most stam pushes him way over the hit cap. He's actually doing EXACTLY what we're advocating.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  8. #28
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    Could you please explain your reasoning here? How are the Leggards better for survival? The Pillars have the exact same stam, slightly better avoidance and a crap ton more armor..... The trade off for the armor is the hit.... so Im not sure how youre saying this is better survivability.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  9. #29
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    B/C LK is predominantly a magic damage fight. And the T10 4piece is based off total hp, which also favors stamina stacking.

    We were just discussing this in the shoutbox since I was curious too =p.

    Edit: there's the comparison Legguards have more stamina btw: http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=50612;49904
    Last edited by Muffin Man; 04-08-2010 at 02:00 PM.

  10. #30
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    There is no more stamina on the Leggards than on the Pillars, is there? Did they change the stats on the Leggards?

    In any event, BQ is not a good example of a fight that threat is an issue. Its primarily a tank and spank and there is a mechanic that removes threat from your best dps quickly into the fight. The fights where threat can be an issue are:

    - Heroic Dreamwalker
    - Heroic Deathwhisper
    - Heroic Princes
    - Regular LK raging spirits (havent seen heroic so I dont know)

    The thread is about an OP that wanted to boost his threat in exchange for some survival. On most of the fights I just names, its completely appropriate to make that kind of a sacrifice in exchange for more threat (maybe not Princes). The theory that Aggathon and Dreador are espousing is that you shouldnt care about threat mechanics for tanking. I disagree with this. There is a time and place for threat gearing and a good tank will know when to do it.

    Edit: ooo they buffed the stamina on the Leggards..... the one I used on wowhead must be old.... I used this link.... http://www.wowhead.com/item=49964. These are the non heroic ones. My bad.
    Last edited by Unger; 04-08-2010 at 02:12 PM.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  11. #31
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    You should work on your reading comprehension a little bit.

    1) Xav is using the 277 Legguards which have more stam than pillars of might.

    2) We are saying that given the current state of warrior threat mechanics, not much, if any, threat stats are really needed.

    3) I specifically was saying that it depends on "comfort levels" and what you and your DPS are capable of doing in terms of TPS

    4) If you're "doing it right" only minimal threat stats should be necessary to maintain high TPS, this is due to current mechanics especially with the 3.3.2 changes to devastate and 3.3.3 changes to revenge

    5) I was contesting the contention that Xav is stacking threat stats, and in fact the fight in question that I was talking about (and why Xav is gearing the way he is) is H-LK25, not BQL.

    6) Even if you want to make those arguments, it is REALLY clear that Xav isn't going for threat since he is using the 5/15/51 spec which doesn't even have impale/deep wounds, 2 of the best threat talents that are some of the basis for why threat stats aren't really needed.

    7) I am also advocating knowledge of fights and mechanics because while the 277 legs have more stam than pillars of might, they are not overal more EHP against PHYISCAL damage, however based on his setup, he is probably solo tanking H-LK25 (other tanks are probably getting the adds) and with his setup he wouldn't need outside cooldowns. Since he has access to 4pc 277 T10 the 4 piece also benefits from stacking raw stam instead of armor as well. To drive this point home further, against magic damage using the TheckHD EHP calculation the ICC buff becomes even more beneficial when considering the ratio of armor to stam since stam gives more HPs so you get to add more HP to the magical side of the equation.

    8) All this comes from the knowledge of why, which admittedly often gets left out, but people need to learn to THINK FOR THEMSELVES and use their knowledge of tanking mechanics to make the appropriate decision. In fact, unless you are doing the exact same content and exact same strat as a high end tank, you shouldn't look at their armories and make assumptions. I HATE that, especially since highly specialized fights like H-Anub25 or H-LK25 require vastly different gearsets from the norm and the average joe that comes to these forums won't be on that fight for a long time, so doling out advice based on that is, well... ill-advised.

    I really need to write a freaking "why you do what you do" post or something.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  12. #32
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    I will agree that after further review, the comparison to Xav was not a good one. However, I dont believe that invalidates the argument.

    1) Agreed

    2) While this comment is interesting, the OP was asking for the best ways to increase his threat stats. Its not an unreasonable question and it deserved better than "dont worry about it"

    3) While you may have been saying this, this is not what the other tanks in this thread have said. Some have said you need expertise only and need no hit. Others have said you should completely disregard threat mechanics. The OP asked for ways to trade threat mechanics for survival mechanics. This, in and of itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. There is a time and place for this.

    4) If youre running to grab an abom on Heroic Dreamwalker and you see an archmage across the room, you cant charge the archmage because the abom could debuff the dps that are set up between you and the Zombie. You taunt it, heroic throw to get some threat up, and hope it makes it to you without some mage blowing it up. FYI, on heroic, the archmages, zombies, aboms and skeletons all hit for enough to kill dps if its not tanked (unlike regular). The abom is about to go down, so you know youre going to have worms and you need to make sure your tclap and shockwave are ready to go right when they pop. If you think this is an unusual event for a tank on this fight, youre lucky. It happens to me all the time.

    5) I concede this point

    6) Again, I concede this.

    7) On a side note, If he is tanking LK, he likely wouldnt have to worry much about the adds and therefore, would not have to worry about snap aggro.

    8) Thinking for himself was exactly what the original OP was doing before he was summarily drowned out by the people in this thread who told him that he shouldnt need threat items and if he does, he is bad. He recognized that he was under expertise dodge cap, under hit cap and asked a question. Seeking out smart people to get advice isnt a bad thing.... or is it?

    My reading comprehension is fine though. A shame it had to go there....
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  13. #33
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    And we GAVE him those responses, read Boda's post or my first long one, I broke it down for him and even agreed with you to an extent initially.
    I just logged into Xav's character to make a point. He is, like most warrior tanks, in 4 piece T10. He has mostly armor pieces.... but instead of the typical Pillars of Might, he has the Leggards of Lost Hope on (heroic). One of the best warrior tanks in the entire world has actually geared for hit. He is at 307 hit and 16 expertise.

    Listen, youre trying to make a point.... but you're just wrong.
    ^ This is what pissed me off, especially since you make several contentions and assertions that are flat out wrong, which you conceded in your last post, and then try to say that WE are wrong for it. Giving opinions is fine and I agreed with your comfort level, but you are giving inaccurate information to someone, and that is something that bothers me, especially when you are taking the person and the gear out of context.

    Edit: and especially when there are tons of other posts on the subject matter and I explained WHY people are saying expertise:
    The reason why people say 26 expertise for the dodge soft cap isn't JUST so that the bosses don't dodge any more. At like 25 expertise it should be a negligible about of dodge anyways. The reason is that because up to 26 expertise, expertise is TWICE as effective as hit since it knocks both dodges and parries off of the bosses' hit table, not just 1 thing (miss) like with hit. Therefore until 26 expertise, expertise is far and away the better threat stat.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unger View Post
    Im not trying to say that you need to have all world experience to contribute.... but heroic dps is definitely another animal than regular dps. If youre downing BQ on heroic, your people bring it hard.

    My point with Xav wasnt that he was stacking hit for anything other than he is adjusting to specific fights. We should all do that.... including threat mechanics.

    So, curious, how much DPS are your DPS players putting out? Mine are hitting 13k on normal fights like fester or saurfang even, that's the midrange, the higher ones are getting numbers like 15 or more. 16 expertise skill on my toon and zero (0) issues with threat.
    Last edited by Dreadski; 04-08-2010 at 02:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  15. #35
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    Well on BQL they don't do any threat after bitten... just sayin'.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Well on BQL they don't do any threat after bitten... just sayin'.
    Bad example, either way this thread started out pretty pointless and has turned into something even more pointless.....we're arguing shit that's been hashed out already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  17. #37
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    Well be pissed off then. I made ONE contention that is likely incorrect about Xav's gear. We have no way of really knowing, but I agree that you are likely correct.

    The mistake I made was that I tried to illustrate my point using Xav's makeup. This, in no way, invalidated the argument that threat gear is, at times, necessary. The point I was taking issue with was NOT yours. It was Dreador's, who stated that raids are bad if you have threat issues. Well, if that's true, my guild is bad then. But we are also pretty deep into heroic 25s and 10s, so we might want to re-examine that.

    If someone is saying that threat is just not an issue, they are wrong. I absolutely stand by that. Please do not take the one issue of Xav's gear and completely invalidate my argument. I conceded one point. That likely Xav's choice was not about threat. That doesnt mean that all tanks should ignore threat and that does not meant that my point should be lost.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  18. #38
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    Is this your armor Unger? http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...tmane&cn=Unger

    Because frankly Dreador's right, the DPS, even if doing 13k dps, really shouldn't be riding your butt much past the first 10 or 15 seconds or ever if you have 1 or 2 MDs or TotT. It is really easy to pump out 12k+ threat even without many threat stats, and warriors have a utility belt that batman would be proud of to ensure they can get snap threat or at least get a fixate until they do have threat.

    If you want I would be more than happy to move this to PMs to help you out with this. (Although hint: it could be because you only have 12 expertise, even less than dreador and have some interesting gemming choices that you could change to make up for that if you are having issues).
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  19. #39
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    Actually we should go further and address the issue you brought up. Speculation about another good tanks choices lead us to knowledge. Either we figure out why they chose what they did, or we could be led to discover that their logic is flawed in some way. Part of going through this is challenging each others assumptions (and our own) and trying our best to beat the events that Blizzard has set in front of us.

    The BEST part of this type of community is the ability to share ideas and logic and strategies in ways that could never have been done before we had these resources. We might disagree on whether or not threat gear has a place for an end game tank.... we might disagree on the stacking of armor or stamina. Enchants differ.... procs change, gear evolves and then Blizzard puts another set of challenges in front of us.

    However, your comment about "reading comprehension" represents the worst of this type of community. This is a comment that you likely would not have said to someone in person, but because of the anonymity of the internet, its ok to be disrespectful to other people. You see this in a MUCH more dramatic fashion on the wow forums or in /2 for dalaran. The worst of our human nature comes out in this environment.... and it spoils the gains of the technology. I said I disagreed with the assessment that threat didnt matter. For that matter, I said Dreador was "wrong"

    Not only does your comment feed into elitism on forums, it also discourages other people from speaking up for fear of "pissing someone off" in a forum, as though these hallowed halls should be monitored like the interior of the Pentagon or perhaps Fort Knox.

    So in the end, you win..... Xav wasnt wearing that because he needed threat. You have successfully defended your electronic "turf". I just cant help but wonder if Tankspot won....
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  20. #40
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    LOL, yes that is me. Im pretty pleased with my choices on my gems. However, I will send you a PM
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

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