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Thread: Starved for offensive stats - What can I leave behind?

  1. #1
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    Starved for offensive stats - What can I leave behind?

    Throughout my experience in tier 10, I'm starved for hit and expertise... It seems like I can pick one or the other and gear hard toward it, but not both. I currently run a hybrid of a little bit of both, but I'd like to pick one or the other and I'm not sure which...

    Anyone able to help?

  2. #2
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    Try to maintain 26 expertise skill to reach the dodge cap.

    You do not need hit as a tank.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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    16 expertise and no threat or dps problems at all. You don't need it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    I've traditionally heard 26 expertise... but 16?

    And you're both saying to avoid hit?

  5. #5
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    Hit isn't a major issue 26 expertise is nice to get or close as. If item has hit on it great but do not gem for hit!
    So long and thanks for all this fish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tib View Post
    I've traditionally heard 26 expertise... but 16?

    And you're both saying to avoid hit?
    Expertise is a personal preference issue. I feel if you are close to 26, say withing x2 hybrid gems and the expertise food, go for it. Especially if you can place those hybrids in items with a +9 or +12 stam bonus because you get some back. Others say they do fine without it, again personal preference.

    You shouldn't avoid hit, just don't making gearing choices based on it. If it has some cool, if not don't worry. Do not gem or enchant for it.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  7. #7
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    I think they'd say hit isn't as important as long as you can still hit with taunt and have no threat issues.

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    There's the "need" level and there's the "i feel comfortable at" level. Be careful to distinguish between the two.

    I've zigzagged between numbers a lot and as a warrior tank i've found that, 18 expertise and 140 hitrating is my minimum comfort level. Below those and i start feeling very very frustrated.

    If/when i get a chance to increase any of those numbers, i go for increasing expertise though. I try to keep it at around 23-24 and cover the rest with expertise food. If the hit drops below 140, i see too many misses on my taunts, even with the glyph. Yes, i can live with it but i'd rather not, so you'll see the occasional +hit/stam gem on my gear, that's the reason.

  9. #9
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    Threat is never a issue with a good tank in a raid. And there is no reason to even worry about threat stats. 0%hit, 0xp, you can still tank just fine,

    Your' job is soak up boss damage, anything but a survival stat belongs to dps.

    And if you feel like you need a threat state because #A its a joke fight and you just want to smash face or #B you need hit to taunt "heroic Saurfang", then switch up some gear "rings, neck, weapon" are the easiest for the least amout of stats lost

    Food buff also for what ever direction you may need, +40agi/stam +40xp/stam +40hit/stam. Avoid fish feasts if you "need" a threat stat

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    16 expertise and no threat or dps problems at all. You don't need it.
    I couldnt disagree more.... whenever I am in my armor set, my hit is 80 and my expertise is 18. When I miss on an initial pull, it can cause problems. Not sure what type of group you are running with Dreador.... my guild is working on 25 LK and we have 10 man at 9/12 heroic. The team pulls pretty strong dps. For things like raging spirits, adds on Dreamwalker, adds on Deathwhisper, start of the pull for Blood Princes, and even our Pally tank gets rushed on regular 25 LK.... For me, threat components make a difference.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unger View Post
    I couldnt disagree more.... whenever I am in my armor set, my hit is 80 and my expertise is 18. When I miss on an initial pull, it can cause problems. Not sure what type of group you are running with Dreador.... my guild is working on 25 LK and we have 10 man at 9/12 heroic. The team pulls pretty strong dps. For things like raging spirits, adds on Dreamwalker, adds on Deathwhisper, start of the pull for Blood Princes, and even our Pally tank gets rushed on regular 25 LK.... For me, threat components make a difference.
    Here's a solution to your problem, any raid with a clue does not have issues with threat. Get a Tricks and an MD on the pull and you have no problems, if you do...then you have bigger problems than offensive stats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  12. #12
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    I completely agree with dreador here but its nice to not rely on tricks 100% of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    I completely agree with dreador here but its nice to not rely on tricks 100% of the time.
    Nothing wrong with using it off the pull. Rogues can just tricks eachother after that but there's no reason not to use it on the tank the first time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Here's a solution to your problem, any raid with a clue does not have issues with threat. Get a Tricks and an MD on the pull and you have no problems, if you do...then you have bigger problems than offensive stats.
    That's not completely accurate. In high end raid situations, especially if you are tanking adds that need to be picked up immediately and DPS'd down immediately, some DPS can still get lucky burst threat and beat you on it, even with a tricks or an MD, and this is coming from someone that was doing 11-12k TPS sustained before I quit during 3.3.2 with only 23 expertise and 121 hit. But that's SUSTAINED threat, if I get a few unlucky misses at the begining, the brown stuff can hit the rotating blades. We had a ret pally that could pull off constantly without even really trying. Now some dps can throttle back and prevent threat being pulled, but the more threat you can generate the more DPS the DPS can do. Threat is a job for warrior tanks, but survivability takes priority.

    The reason why people say 26 expertise for the dodge soft cap isn't JUST so that the bosses don't dodge any more. At like 25 expertise it should be a negligible about of dodge anyways. The reason is that because up to 26 expertise, expertise is TWICE as effective as hit since it knocks both dodges and parries off of the bosses' hit table, not just 1 thing (miss) like with hit. Therefore until 26 expertise, expertise is far and away the better threat stat.

    I completely agree with Unger and Fledern, it's about comfort level and what you can get away with. Maybe with some raid setups 16 expertise is okay. I was doing good with 23 expertise and 121 hit, I didn't feel like I NEEDED more and changing gear/gems around I felt was not worth the survival margin losses, especially since even with the 5% buff in ICC ~44k unbuffed and 35.6k armor unbuffed I was still getting my face smashed in my heroic Princes and had to use cooldowns very wisely to survive.

    If you need to know exactly what hit numbers you need to ensure taunt doesn't miss, then take a gander at footnote 3 in my guide in my sig. It breaks down the exact levels you need based on buffs like the spriest +3% spell hit buff and 8% from glyph of taunt.

    Also, it should be noted that on some fights threat is not going to matter at all. I would site MTing LK, Putricide, OTing Marrowgar, etc. etc. are fights that don't require you to do much threat.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    That's not completely accurate. In high end raid situations, especially if you are tanking adds that need to be picked up immediately and DPS'd down immediately, some DPS can still get lucky burst threat and beat you on it, even with a tricks or an MD, and this is coming from someone that was doing 11-12k TPS sustained before I quit during 3.3.2 with only 23 expertise and 121 hit. But that's SUSTAINED threat, if I get a few unlucky misses at the begining, the brown stuff can hit the rotating blades. We had a ret pally that could pull off constantly without even really trying. Now some dps can throttle back and prevent threat being pulled, but the more threat you can generate the more DPS the DPS can do.
    I agree, but being the batman of tanking classes I think there's plenty we can do, even in an add situation. First, there's rage. Use charge, blood and zerker rage immediately. If you've got misses or parries or dodges on your openers, use others. If we're talking adds, opening with a tclap and a cleave queued up is optimal, if both fail shockwave or C-shout. Or if you're leet, warstomp. If you're intuitive about what can happen then you are in a position to counteract it if it happens. Also, ret paladins are nubs and should pull off you and die. =)


    Threat is a job for warrior tanks, but survivability takes priority.
    Indeed, which is why I have the stance I do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  16. #16
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    Also I feel it's worth mentioning, if you run the Cataclysmic Chest and Grinning Skull Greatboots, you have 22 expertise, eat the food and you're at the dodge cap for a warrior with Vitality. You can easily use those in a "threat set", switching that chest in for your tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  17. #17
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    Why the dismissive and condescending tone by you people? Yeah uh worrying about expertise or threat automatically means you or your raid are bad. Some of us don't run in raids with rogues or hunters (I know neither of my 10 groups on my main or alt do) so I don't get the MD or TotT crutches.

    On my warrior I had dropped down to 16-ish expertise after a few early upgrades, and at times, aggro got a little shaky especially in the first 10-15 seconds off a pull or tank switch. Picked up the pants to get back into the low 20's and things felt much better and now I have the sword to put me back just above the softcap and things are peachy. If you're a warrior I'd say use whatever gear to stay at 20-ish or so, any less and I feel bad stuff can happen.

    Now if only shambling horrors would stop resisting my glyphed taunts grrrr

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sublime View Post
    Why the dismissive and condescending tone by you people? Yeah uh worrying about expertise or threat automatically means you or your raid are bad. Some of us don't run in raids with rogues or hunters (I know neither of my 10 groups on my main or alt do) so I don't get the MD or TotT crutches.

    On my warrior I had dropped down to 16-ish expertise after a few early upgrades, and at times, aggro got a little shaky especially in the first 10-15 seconds off a pull or tank switch. Picked up the pants to get back into the low 20's and things felt much better and now I have the sword to put me back just above the softcap and things are peachy. If you're a warrior I'd say use whatever gear to stay at 20-ish or so, any less and I feel bad stuff can happen.

    Now if only shambling horrors would stop resisting my glyphed taunts grrrr

    Nothing condescending. I never said you NEEDED TOT or MD to do well, but if you are having troubles then perhaps should. My last 10 man pug didn't have either class either but I had no issues at all. Currently at 20 expertise if I use the Wyrmsteak. Easily pulling at least 12k TPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sublime View Post
    condescending tone by you people?
    What do you mean YOU people?

    Edit: also one of the reasons why it might appear as exasperation is because we get a lot of the same questions over and over again, kinda grinds down on you and it's really hard to convey tone or intent over the internet, so it might seem way more condescending than it really is.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  20. #20
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    Indeed. There's even a post in General titled 'Do tanks that stack stam lack threat?'

    I like having threat stats, I hate seeing Rev/SS/Dev all get parried in a row. That said, the threat game is way too easy right now (Blizz has admitted to this) and that's even before you consider threat transfers.

    Yes, the beginning of a pull is dicey, but it always will be unless you are fully capped for hit/expertise. That's why people take different stances on how much hit/expertise you really *need*. It is a comfort thing. But it's a raid makeup thing. If you raid with a bunch of slow-wind up classes then you are more unlikely to have threat pulled off you early. If your raid bloodlusts on the pull and mages mirror image and pop trinkets, then you are much more likely to have problems (don't laugh that was my guild's early strategy for Rotface then we discovered the MI bug)...

    I dps as an Arms Warrior and an Unholy DK, they're at the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of burst threat. I've never once had a problem with my DK (diseases + pet means I do low, low threat early on). But I have tons of problems on my Arms warrior (the first MS is a near-guaranteed crit, OP is a guaranteed crit... I might proc execute which can crit and has a +threat modifier... then I'm dead).

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