Hit for a Frost DK Tank
I couldn't tell which forum this belonged in, sorry if this is wrong.
I've been looking at a lot of gear in ICC and Frost Emblem upgrades and I'm noticing the there is not a lot of Hit. I believe this may affect my threat generation and since it is already lacking in Raids, this is quite the predicament for me.
Should I be gemming for straight Hit later on or just accept this scarcity as inevitable and continue with Stam/Dodge?
Tanks do not need hit. You need expertise, 26 at the minimum.
You should be gemming for exp/stam until you have 26, then stam. Get your avoidance from gear.
Otherwise, have at it.
Hit is important so you dont miss for a missed attack is less TPS and a missed taunt can be a potential wipe. 8% is the "hit cap" for 2H tanking and your 1H main hand if you dual wield.
With that said I would never gem for hit but I did run most of naxx on my Prot warrior with Grim Toll as a tanking trinket in order to be hit capped for more TPS.
I like to have gear I can swap in and out for different fights depending on their requirement.
Last edited by Kadira; 01-13-2010 at 01:56 AM.
Even though it is indeed true that threat will be higher when getting closer to hit cap, you should really check wether you need this threat.
For high threat encounters I normally use blood tank spec, but found frost dual wield just a little behind on threat. Especially with hunters and rogues in raid there should be no issue at all holding threat.
I normally play with just 49 hit rating having no problem at all holding threat.
Also as frost tank there's a rather big challenge in perfecting the rune and RP management together with procs of rime and killing machine that can easily outweigh the use of hit if done correctly.
For real progression raiding I think there is far more use for gear with high avoidance and high stamina, rather than hit rating.
Easy way to find the difference for youself is buying the hit trinket for triumph emblems and just see what difference it makes when you use that instead of a stamina trinket in some raid.
If you want specific advice for gearing your character, the appropriate place is the "HALP" forum. Having scanned your armory, your gear looks entry level. What applies to toons raiding ICC25 may not apply to you.
As a general point, I'd have thought that frost DKs would value hit a bit more than other tank classes because of howling blast? The ICC rep ring, the trash drop ring, the broken ram skull helm are 3 decent +hit pieces that I can think of that someone might consider using if they valued hit. I doubt gemming pure (ie. yellow) hit gems would be that smart a move in raid content, although the odd green +hit/+stam gem to meet a socket bonus might not be a bad idea.
Tanks do not need anymore hit than what they get on their gear unless they don't want to glyph for it doing hard modes. The only time taunting becomes an issue is in hard modes.
Expertise provides you the best bang for your buck. It reduces parries, dodges and(iirc) misses.
Gearing and gemming for hit will cause you to lose out on stats much more beneficial to your survival and threat generation.
For my current gear you are right, I doubt ICC is on the menu for me anytime soon. I was more asking about when and if I do get that gear, I like to be knowledgeable.
Originally Posted by swelt
I disagree with the DW Main Hand Hit Cap.
Originally Posted by Kadira
8% Hit is the Style Cap - not your Soft Cap for the Main Hand if you DW. You can still miss with your White Attacks of your Main Hand when you DW. For DW Frost Tanks Hit can be an option, to increase your TPS - but it's only one of dozen Ways to increase your TPS Output.
Hit is important for DPS Classes, not for Tanks. Taunts also use the Spell Hit Table and you can use the Taunt Glyph to decrease the Chance of a missed Taunt. Also a SP or Boomkin can help you with Misery or Improved Faerie Fire to lower the required Spell Hit Rating for a successful Taunt.
..just my 2 cents.
While it is not exactly true that missed taunts are only an issue in hard modes (think about all the fights in ICC that requires tank swaps) we DKs are blessed with Deathgrip as well if Dark Command should fail. As several have mentioned already hit is not especially important as long as you have no trouble maintaining threat (which I never have had myself as a DK with a few exceptions like very tight enrage timers). I keep a dps trinket in my bags in case I dont have any glyphs and really need the hit also.
Originally Posted by Jaeden
Expertise on the other hand is as much a survival stat as it is a threat stat so that would be more important to get up high. Most tanks (I think) only go for the soft cap 26 so while its never a bad thing to have even higher I wouldnt suggest gemming above it.
Last edited by PatrikL; 01-14-2010 at 02:23 AM.
Dont you need to HIT something in the first place to have them parry or dodge?
Originally Posted by Jaeden
And what stats would we be missing out on for survival (stam?) or threat (str?)? Or are you talking about dodge, parry, armor, resilience and defense? And if you are, don't the frost abilities Toughness, Frigid Dreadplate, and Unbreakable Armor supplement these enough to justify other gems?
And aren't our three key threat moves all spells based on spell hit (DG, DK and DnD)? Wouldn't this mean that expertise does not apply to them?
And isn't spell hit derived from hit rating? My spell hit is the same as my melee hit- just the percentages are different (428 rating; 13.05% melee and 16.32% spell) - but I'm not the tank in this gear/build either.
And what is resist (as in the mob/boss resisting my DG or DC) primarily based on? Resistence or dodge?
Well for my 2 cents i'd say as others have mentioned that there are a few scattered around icc loot pieces with nice hit and avoidance, I have at the moment got a load of hit gems in until I get the helm from deathwhisper and it has helped alot with threat gen.
Howling blast cannot be dodged as it is a spell , runestrike cannot be dodged or parried period and neither can dnd. As a frost tank these are some of your main threat abilities (without taunting) - the 3 attacks that need expertise are Blood strike , Obliterate and Frost strike.
So whilst it is helpful, if you are glyphed to apply frost fever with Howling blast then expertise is not vital - HB alone with added FF is a huge chunk of threat with a killing machine proc. Having said that im going to buy the vendor chest piece with the expertise on it to get to the dodge cap , but thats more to do with the crazy armor on it.
Hit however is important - really important , Just imagine missing taunts on stinky and or precious - ((unless u do the smart thing and blow your army to make the mortal wounds defunkt )) or Festergut or saurfang - well take your pick - whilst it is not over and can be salvaged its a bad situation. If you use the taunt glyph you miss out on other great abilities and thats just no fun ......
Get your hit to between 230 and 250 and with misery from Spriests or faire fire from druids or Heroic presence from the spacegoats its at cap.
Its important but think wisely about it - if your gear doesnt have huge amounts of it use a few split hit/stam gems - and then utilise the raid buffs.
Much love my undead bretheren
Dante (aka) Serender
Last edited by Dante; 02-18-2010 at 10:58 AM.
It's a choice, either you run around with spare glyphs or you make sure your close to the 8% for fights that really needed, i run with almost hit cap, simply because with a hit/stam gem in a yellow socket here and there and the amount of hit you get in ICC it's easy to remain as good as capped.
Plus i'm blood aswel so HS and DS spam, hit cap helps with my threat.
You can always use Death Grip to taunt instead
As far as I know, DG is still considered a spell mechanic, and can miss just as well (poorly?) as Dark Command.
Really? I was told DG never misses, but I can't be sure as I've not got that much experience taunting lvl 83 targets.
Tanks need hit VERY much...if ur not hitting, ur losing threat...plain and simple..Hit is moreImportant fortanks than any, imo...
Rime or Killing Machine are worthless if they miss...Not to mention that HB is a spell which needs 16-17% to cap...
Actually: no. At least, not if I understood what I was reading correctly.
Originally Posted by Dethjonson
From what I've read about how this stuff is computed, missing, getting parried, and getting dodged are 3 possibilities on the same attack table. It doesn't determine if you hit or miss first and then if the attack was parried or dodged. They are just 3 possibilities which are assigned number ranges on the same, single "die roll".
I think he meant that if your dark comand misses, then you can still use a deathgrip. (and hope that doesnt miss cuz if it does you're out for about 5 or 6 more secs till you can use dark command again)
Originally Posted by Zxian
But on to the topic, its really just based on how you want to gear. As you can see from all these posts everyone has different ideas of how much hit you should have. If your having threat issues, look and see if you're missing a lot of attacks. if you are, then you should probably gem for hit. Also, if you're hit is really low in general then, like above posters say, you could throw some stam/hit gems in for fights where taunts really count, i.e. festergut, saurfang, ect. Imo you should try to keep this number up with gear but i wonder worry about being under cap with all your normal tank gear.
On an off topic note, i can't wait until reforging!! let me take off some of that icky parry for some expertise, hit, dodge, def, anything....
Okay a Pally *might* be able to get away with it, as there are numerous ways for you to recover if you miss that first critical hit. A DK frost tank has to get that first hit in for initial threat. I would advise you to use things like vivid eye of Zul to get a stam bonus on yellow sockets, if you are lower on hit. 26 expertise is what you're aiming for as well.
Originally Posted by Jaeden
Not only that, but there are many mobs immune to Death Grip.
Originally Posted by Zxian