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Thread: Expertise and endgame ICC 25 heroic tanking....

  1. #21
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    The only thing that annoys me atm is seing a dodge on my attacks. i'm using pillars + t10 chest and have had bad luck on Valithria and her boots so i'm on 7 expertise pre-foodbuff and tbh it hasn't been a problem at all. Haste gibbing is practically none-existant now and we - warriors - are dishing out so much threat that a few avoided attacks makes little to no difference. I haven't even specced vigilance for the past 2 months and everyone in the raid are happy with my threat, its abit rediculous.

  2. #22
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    I've only got 10 rocking 4 piece t 10 and pillars of might. In fact, none of my gear has expertise at all...I've only got a few guardian's gems in for socket bonuses and the six from spec.

    TPS is not really an issue, and really the only time I would value more expertise (given tps being a non-issue and parry haste being disabled) is early on in the pull because an initial dodge/parry (or even miss, based off hit) can lead to an insta pull off of you. Still, to totally eliminate this chance you'd need to be hit capped and expertise capped for parry, which certainly isn't practical.

    Additonally, with the exception of Heroic LDW all the bosses are susceptible to taunt...I'm in the habit of throwing a taunt on the boss as I charge in Shield Slam. It's off GCD, and while it may also miss it gives me an additional buffer period as it'll give me a second gcd with which to hit a big move if my initial SS doesn't land.

    I'm actually considering ditching the 3 or 4 guardian's dreadstones I have and going back to the agi/stam I was rocking in t9, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable doing that.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snitsky View Post
    I've only got 10 rocking 4 piece t 10 and pillars of might. In fact, none of my gear has expertise at all...I've only got a few guardian's gems in for socket bonuses and the six from spec.

    TPS is not really an issue, and really the only time I would value more expertise (given tps being a non-issue and parry haste being disabled) is early on in the pull because an initial dodge/parry (or even miss, based off hit) can lead to an insta pull off of you. Still, to totally eliminate this chance you'd need to be hit capped and expertise capped for parry, which certainly isn't practical.

    Additonally, with the exception of Heroic LDW all the bosses are susceptible to taunt...I'm in the habit of throwing a taunt on the boss as I charge in Shield Slam. It's off GCD, and while it may also miss it gives me an additional buffer period as it'll give me a second gcd with which to hit a big move if my initial SS doesn't land.

    I'm actually considering ditching the 3 or 4 guardian's dreadstones I have and going back to the agi/stam I was rocking in t9, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable doing that.
    I have taunt macro'd to charge, have since WOTLK came out, works wonders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  4. #24
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    Expertise is awesome. Problem is, there's like zero expertise in a BiS setup and it's usually not worth losing other survival stats to really try and push for the softcap. Most tanks don't have problems with threat on bosses because they get MDs/Tricks at the start. Realistically tho, you won't ALWAYS have tricks or an MD. Expertise really shines on fights like dreamwalker or when you're trying to get a quick pickup on raging spirits on lich king. If you're looking up the top tanks on the armory right now tho, you probably won't see much expertise. Heroic lich king hits WAY too hard to really swap gear around to get more expertise. There is only one situation in ICC where softcapping expertise is absolutely vital imo, and that's if you are the offtank for p1 heroic lich king as a bear or warrior. You can't afford for your shockwave or bash to get dodged when the shambler enrages. It's very possible that a dodged shockwave will instantly result in your death from a 80-100k melee hit.

    I'm running with 10 expertise now and I really hate it. The only way I can get more is if the damn boots off dreamwalker drop (I have a feeling I won't see them till cataclysm tho...) or if I swap pillars of might for the t10 legs. I'm tankin heroic LK 25 atm, so there's no way I'm swappin the legs just yet.
    Last edited by Dragaan; 04-07-2010 at 03:19 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    I have taunt macro'd to charge, have since WOTLK came out, works wonders.
    o.O

    That means you need 2 charges on your bar. 1 with taunt and 1 w/o? I'd be afraid I'd hit the wrong one while offtanking on a fight like lich king, lol.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragaan View Post
    o.O

    That means you need 2 charges on your bar. 1 with taunt and 1 w/o? I'd be afraid I'd hit the wrong one while offtanking on a fight like lich king, lol.
    Enter the Naga. I have 17 buttons on my mouse. There's a macro for charge/intercept/taunt. One for all aspects of warbringer in one. One for arms pvp charge in battle/intercept in zerker.... Vene made a long blog post of all the many possibilities that warbringer had to offer in a macro No worries mate.


    EDIT: Also to the point about dreamwalker adds, never any issues picking them up, it all boiled down to clever usage of abilities, throws, charges/intercepts and taunts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  7. #27
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    Shockwave can't be dodged or parried.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naka View Post
    Shockwave can't be dodged or parried.
    It's true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragaan View Post
    Expertise is awesome. Problem is, there's like zero expertise in a BiS setup and it's usually not worth losing other survival stats to really try and push for the softcap.
    The same for plate DPS and it's not such a big issue pushing for softcap in favor of damage output. My character has 2 pieces of gear with expertise and it is only enough to get me 16 expertise (T10.5 legs and badge cloak). I mean, I miss maybe once or twice in a boss fight in 25 man, so it's not a huge deal when your overall DPS and damage is above what is required to down bosses with short enrage timers. I have been of the opinion for a long time that there is too much damn hit rating based gear and not enough expertise based gear. Unless you are in a guild capable of downing heroic Lich King, there is no way in hell you are going to get near expertise capped if you are a class that uses a two handed weapon (DK tank or plate DPS) and it certainly isn't worth capping unless you know you can survive big monster hits.

    Blizz needs to take hit rating off gear and give us more expertise. I am so damn far over hit cap as DPS main spec and far over it in tanking gear it is ridiculous.


    The measure of a life is the measure of love and respect. So hard to earn, so easily burned - Neil Peart

  10. #30
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    I have 22 expertise(probably 30 if put 10 drops his H sword and I get my grinning H boots) because that's what my gear has atm I don't go out of my way to get any more. parry gibs only matter on sindra 25-h, that thing hits like 35k+ along with instant cleave.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    The same for plate DPS and it's not such a big issue pushing for softcap in favor of damage output. My character has 2 pieces of gear with expertise and it is only enough to get me 16 expertise (T10.5 legs and badge cloak). I mean, I miss maybe once or twice in a boss fight in 25 man, so it's not a huge deal when your overall DPS and damage is above what is required to down bosses with short enrage timers. I have been of the opinion for a long time that there is too much damn hit rating based gear and not enough expertise based gear. Unless you are in a guild capable of downing heroic Lich King, there is no way in hell you are going to get near expertise capped if you are a class that uses a two handed weapon (DK tank or plate DPS) and it certainly isn't worth capping unless you know you can survive big monster hits.

    Blizz needs to take hit rating off gear and give us more expertise. I am so damn far over hit cap as DPS main spec and far over it in tanking gear it is ridiculous.
    I don't know about you, but my fury set is basically perfectly balanced at just one expertise over dodge cap, like 30 hit rating over main hand cap (with precision) and is still itemized well enough to put me at 90 percent ArP (with gems) without DBW.

  12. #32
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    Didn't we JUST have another thread about this?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Didn't we JUST have another thread about this?
    Why yes we did. Apparently this topic is another one that qualifies for a strobe light sticky. Since I lack a strobe light........


    Look its not that hit and expertise do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

    How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):

    1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
    2) Spec and Glyphs.
    3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
    4) 26 Expertise Skill.
    5) Hit rating.

    Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. Most tanks including myself tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in ICC with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

    If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1.

    /thread
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    I have 22 expertise(probably 30 if put 10 drops his H sword and I get my grinning H boots) because that's what my gear has atm I don't go out of my way to get any more. parry gibs only matter on sindra 25-h, that thing hits like 35k+ along with instant cleave.
    I'm 99 percent certain she doesn't parry haste. All hard hitting bosses since the end of TBC have had that turned off, and though I've seen people say she does, reviewing our logs from HM last night I can't find any evidence of parry hastes. She does cleave, sometimes within 10ths of a second of a melee swing, but her melee swings seem to be 2 seconds apart throughout all of our attempts.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Didn't we JUST have another thread about this?
    Actually 3 different threads in 3 different subforums that all started about the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snitsky View Post
    I'm 99 percent certain she doesn't parry haste. All hard hitting bosses since the end of TBC have had that turned off, and though I've seen people say she does, reviewing our logs from HM last night I can't find any evidence of parry hastes. She does cleave, sometimes within 10ths of a second of a melee swing, but her melee swings seem to be 2 seconds apart throughout all of our attempts.
    Also, the bosses in ICC hit faster than they did in any other instance just as a principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snitsky View Post
    I don't know about you, but my fury set is basically perfectly balanced at just one expertise over dodge cap, like 30 hit rating over main hand cap (with precision) and is still itemized well enough to put me at 90 percent ArP (with gems) without DBW.
    If the Retribution tree had a talent similar to the Deflection talent in the Protection tree for paladin's where you get some expertise for putting point in it then all would be well and I wouldn't have to worry about not being near cap. I believe Death Knights and Feral Druids have a talent similar to that it too if I recall correctly which gives them expertise, not a lot but it's something. I don't understand why DPS trees don't have them as well. You also have to take into account that with Fury you are using two weapons that are two handed, odds are one could have expertise while the other one doesn't. And really there aren't many items that are worth getting as a regular ICC raider to hit the soft cap without nerfing some damage output.


    The measure of a life is the measure of love and respect. So hard to earn, so easily burned - Neil Peart

  18. #38
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    nvm
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Actually 3 different threads in 3 different subforums that all started about the same time.
    We've also managed two get 2 of them closed!

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragaan View Post
    Expertise is awesome. Problem is, there's like zero expertise in a BiS setup and it's usually not worth losing other survival stats to really try and push for the softcap. Most tanks don't have problems with threat on bosses because they get MDs/Tricks at the start. Realistically tho, you won't ALWAYS have tricks or an MD. Expertise really shines on fights like dreamwalker or when you're trying to get a quick pickup on raging spirits on lich king. If you're looking up the top tanks on the armory right now tho, you probably won't see much expertise. Heroic lich king hits WAY too hard to really swap gear around to get more expertise. There is only one situation in ICC where softcapping expertise is absolutely vital imo, and that's if you are the offtank for p1 heroic lich king as a bear or warrior. You can't afford for your shockwave or bash to get dodged when the shambler enrages. It's very possible that a dodged shockwave will instantly result in your death from a 80-100k melee hit.

    I'm running with 10 expertise now and I really hate it. The only way I can get more is if the damn boots off dreamwalker drop (I have a feeling I won't see them till cataclysm tho...) or if I swap pillars of might for the t10 legs. I'm tankin heroic LK 25 atm, so there's no way I'm swappin the legs just yet.
    ^ Unger agrees with this! That is all!
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

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