Using the corner at all gives the healer LOS issues, including the "using los to help get mobs over to one side" method.
as a warrior, i stay away from those alcoves like the plague. I dont see the point in taking away the best mobility powers in the game. With all the charges at our disposal, i have never been in a position where i couldnt get to a mob before it reaches another target.
Thanks for the heads up I've hated this instance since it came into play. I have been doing it wrong, it was embarrising that could not get it right and from now on im out of the corner.
In the doorway you can keep your ranged at range and you can actually see when something is headed their way. I only worry about the healers.
Also you can move out of the mage's AoE, which makes it a lower priority AND WE GET TO DEAL WITH THE $%!#* HUNTER FIRST.
Especially as a warrior you can zip from enemy to enemy. And after the priest is gone you can send your DPS to the hunter, which is one headache less. The mage doesn't worry me between heroic throw and spell reflect. I was made to tank footmen. Only the rogue remains a nuisance. He usually is the one I try to whittle down myself ASAP.
But it's not only the tank who suffers in the alcove. Healers will have to stay out of the LOS, yet their tank is outside. Doesn't work that way. And I can't shackle. And my rogue has trouble getting behind the mobs. Sucks for shadow dance. Everybody is standing in some kind of AOE because that's the strat. That's plain stupid.
The alcove "strat" was dreamed up by the LOL AOE PWNZR generation.
I've said elsewere:
That's as much a strategy as slowliy walking towards enemy rifle men and clearing mine fields by doing the fandango.
The plan is to let the tank do all the thinking while DPS can remain in its comfy cushion of unaccountability. You'll have priests that down shackle. Hunters who don't misdirect. Rogues who won't ToT you while burning a dangerous ranged mob down. Paladins who don't fear them(yes, they are undead and yes you can get rid of them). That's a strategy for the WotLK generation of players.
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Only thing I'd add is that if my healer is a druid I vig them b/c of their hots and that the only priority kill I ever mark is the rogues due to their stun locks.
@ Mačl - you're right on point. The "normal" strat is for the droolers who love to aoe mindlessly. But this instance is so much more fun when you out think it. Charging, interveneing, stuning, silencing, fearing, shackleing, etc, you have a lot of different options to handle the 10 waves in that little room. Every class has some form of a cc/stun ability that works...but no one ever thinks to use it. And yes quite a few players have told me that asking them to cc is "too much" ...
Former healbot now a Disgruntled protection warrior.
I watched the video, Its nice, but means the warrior has to be on the ball every single pack, one mistake and its a wipe. Its the way i probably would tank Hhor had i not read tacts for the place in advance.
However your group had exetremely high dps compared to most people who go there. You guys severly overgeared the place, the mobs died as if it was on normal almost. If you did that stuff in the groups i seen it wouldnt have been a smoother run. Especially on the LK chase, you were quite far forward, on a low dps group that would have meant lK would have caught up. I seen that happen a few times where the caster is stuck and wont move even though I kicked his cast( i play rogue now), and is in the LK aoe, causing wipe as the ranged dps in my groups usually can only do about 2.5k dps.
Playing dps nopw i get to see many different ways of doing Hhor, and tbh the best way still is the los way tbh, no matter what. I had a 6ok ICC hard mode geared tank onc ein my group , but the healer was all in blues and i was the highest dps in group ( with my ilevel 200 gear :P). He ofc tried doing the altar way as that was what worked for him in the past with his overgeared dps from his guild. we wiped on 3rd pack, when healer was isntantly gibbed by something and the dps ran around like headless chickens. He gave in on the next go and we did los way, having no further issues later on.
As a a rogue i can tricks the tank and then fan of knives the mobs as they come past, making it easy mode. So if theres a rogue in your group make use of him:P
Last edited by Krays; 03-30-2010 at 05:39 AM.
I use it in the video. Try to notice the difference between when i have agro and when i don't. The plates can also be reversed for DPS/healing purposes, meaning that they turn big with spikes whenever you grab agro rather than when you don't.
Actually only the mage did truly high DPS. Both the druid and the lock were below 5k gearscore and didn't do extraordinary DPS. In fact, they only just about passed me as tank.However your group had exetremely high dps compared to most people who go there. You guys severly overgeared the place, the mobs died as if it was on normal almost.
It's true the mage had insane single target DPS and we're able to take down mobs quickly, but you're overestimating how much we overgeared the place. Part of the reason it went so well is that the tactic used is so good if executed right.
Just because the tank you had failed doesn't mean the LoS way is the best.Playing dps nopw i get to see many different ways of doing Hhor, and tbh the best way still is the los way tbh, no matter what. I had a 6ok ICC hard mode geared tank onc ein my group , but the healer was all in blues and i was the highest dps in group ( with my ilevel 200 gear :P). He ofc tried doing the altar way as that was what worked for him in the past with his overgeared dps from his guild. we wiped on 3rd pack, when healer was isntantly gibbed by something and the dps ran around like headless chickens. He gave in on the next go and we did los way, having no further issues later on.
Yes if you have a ICC hard mode geared tank, then the LoS way is good, especially if it is a paladin or a DK. For lesser geared tanks, it's not so good. Of course, a rogue using TotT like you do is going to make it better.
Last edited by Athinira; 03-30-2010 at 09:42 AM.
It's a good guide. Just remember that not all of us tanks have the mobility and threat-drop abilities like you do! Being able to get prox aggro is huge, and having the healer out of LoS of the mobs so that the ranges ones run up is fairly important. That being said, the alcove strategy only works if you mostly remain with everyone else. Running out of LoS of the healer forces them to go in LoS and defeats the purpose. Additionally, most healers end up becoming stupid or something and won't LoS the mobs, and will just stand behind you, get aggro, and do nothing about it.
I was on my Paladin healing a feral tank and I took the extra second to run out of LoS of ranged, it made a world of a difference and the run was flawless.
Here is the be all, end all, awesomest answer ever to the question of "Do I LoS in the corners or not?"
Q: Is your group competent, willing to use CC, capable of focus firing on targets in a priority order without being told every 2 seconds, and unlikely to do dumb things like run away from a tank if they get aggro?
A: Then feel free to tank in the middle.
Now, most pugs fail so miserably at those requirements that LoS is almost required with a pug. But I've tanked it both ways and found either one can work if people play smart. The LoS method is easier on atnks stress levels, but tends to be hell for healers.
Last edited by Eisen; 03-30-2010 at 05:24 PM.
If you can retrain four randoms to deal with a strategy that most of them have never seen, God bless you. I tanked in the center until everybody else got stuck on the alcoves, and then I gave up trying to be different.
Ultimately the strategy is simple. Lock down the melee and don't let them gib you if you get two or three on you at once. Let the pew-pew guys deal with the rest of them -- a mage is just food for a hungry enhancement shaman or fury warrior.
The major benefit to the alcove is that it guarantees that you will be between the mobs and your squishies. If you try to play in wide-open spaces (including the doorway), you will have your more mentally-challenged teammates running around looting or just acting like spastic idiots when the next wave spawns, and they will get themselves gibbed. You can go out in the room after the mobs spawn, if you want, but let that back-to-the-alcove instinct work for you.
"A man can learn twice as much from milking a cat as two men can from a very tall fourth man.
- Mark "Alec Baldwin" Twain
yeh thats the one of the huge problems with Hroh, the mobs drop random epic loot, and battered hilt so everyone is gonna be focused on looting that shit, unless know one needs anything but the frosties. There is barely enough time to loot when all the mobs died in once place let alone all over the room :P (they might spawn away if you wait till later:P). Think theres a way to let you roll on epics without looting, but forgotten how now.
Having healed this a few times, now, on Disc Priest, I must say that when I see a tank stay in the doorway, I breathe a sigh of relief...for at least two reasons: It's what I would do, if I were tanking it, on my Warrior, and I can actually see things, and move more freely, if I need to. The only drawback is, if the tank decides to wander too far away, in chase of a mob. Fortunately, I will usually have a shield bubble up, and Prayer of Mending, on them, giving them some time to "go wild".
I can also more easily throw a silence on a caster, or shackle a mob, and have it possibly last longer than 1 second, before being broken.
In the alcove, I start with LOS, after shielding and POMing tank...then I will run to back wall, and over to opposite wall, once the fight is joined. I can then see when a mob is coming for me, and use Fade, or kite to the tank...and, I love to Penance the daylights out of the Rogue mob-- the shifty git!
I'm not sure if I'd want to stand on top of the fountain, as healer, though...unless I knew the tank, really well! I don't like the idea of being a pinata!
-"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley
Looks like a fun, if masochist way of doing things.
Use LoS for the first 5 seconds of the fight, start next to one of the mobs that spawns just left of right of the alcove, slam them, charge another, one quick tclap and you have all the mobs on you.
Tank out in the open between the throne and the alcove. Any far-off mobs will run through you to get to the healer, you have loads of room and none of the aoes will hit the ranged/healer in the alcove.
Tanking in the middle is possible, of course, but inefficient and more likely to go wrong.
i think the doorway offers the best of both worlds u can partially los the mage and the hunter. there is more room for everyone to see what they are doing. an any mob that wants to go for your healer still has to come through you.
I recently expanded a bit and tried out to see how the "Shout to get agro" method would work when tanking in the middle, and it worked so well for me that it's now part of my standard repetoire. I just had a run in HoR on my warrior using that, and it was by far the smoothest i have done yet. The healer had 0 damage taken according to Recount on the waves themself (only taking damage from the two first bosses).
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I agree with the flaws in the los tactic. The tactic that is shown in your video is a very interesting way to do this fight, sadly for puging this instance this would not work. I am sure like most guilds there are members of the guild that will just not do this instance so in order to do it I have to pug it. Unless you get that 1% pro group it would be hard to get a pug to perform this, half the time I can’t even get pug dps to interrupt. Good video, the start is very interesting.