DK tank with aoe threat problems
Ok so im a death knight tank and this is my first lvl 80. as i leveled i tanked all the dungeons and heroics of dungeons, at first i was a sloppy tank but after i while i was doing really well, i can tank any heroics without a problem, except the H HoR which i can do but there are usually a few rogue adds.
so my problem is threat, and in particular threat in raids were im the OT i just can't seem to keep adds under control
i have good single target threat, i use this blood spec http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...Vedron&group=1
for aoe threat though, i really have a problem. i use this frost DW spec http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...Vedron&group=1
i use DW cause everywhere i read people are saying it generates more threat then 2h, i use 2 nighttime's when in frost or a tyrannical beheader in blood spec
this is my gear set up http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...maul&cn=Vedron, and at first i though my bad threat was because i had bad gear but now i think i have decent gear,
im def caped, hit capped and expertise caped and when in frost presence have around 40k hp
but whenever i OT in raids i always seem to loose add threat reallt quick or just don't pick everything up properly, in particular when i try to MT ICC trash runs i can't control the mobs at all,
my rotation for frost looks like this
DnD, Howling blast, BS,
BS, Obliterate, Obliterate, Obliterate, FS (RP dump)
i hit BS everything i get a blood rune and hit howling blast instead of OB whenever i get KM proc and when i get rime proc
but still it seems like i can't control my the mobs, im don't know what im doing wrong
should i change to a 2h weap for my frost spec? is my rotation bad? i don't really understand when 3.3.3 means for me, is there something i should change because of it? when i was doing the heroics instances i loved my dk cause i could span agrro and hold it from every mob in the instance, but i seems that whenever i have geared dps in the group i can't hold the mobs agrros well at all.
i use the omem addon, is there another addon tanks should use to help with aoe threat control?
like i said this is my first lvl 80 so there is still alot i don't know about this game,
thanks in advance
AOE threat is tricky and generally takes more planning than single target. It takes a lot of practice to really get the hang of it. I'm a 2hand frost and I generally fill pally or aoe threat roles when I tank a raid; and I dare say that I have become pretty good at it. (I'm not sure how 2 hand frost stacks up against dw frost; I think that, like most aspects of tanking, it depends on the player and their playing style.) You were in a pvp set at the time that I looked at your gear so I have no opinions on it.
I don't know anything about blood tanking so I'll stick to your questions about frost specs and aoe threat.
1) I would change glyph of disease out in favor of glyph of howling blast. Being able to single blast all your targets with frost fever really helps with aoe threat. I would also consider changing your glyph of runestrike out for glyph of icy touch (or whichever boosts frost fever damage). You have 2 tanking specs (blood for 1 target, frost for multi targets). As awesome as glyph of runestrike is, I think that its more of a single target ability. The damage from the glyph of icy touch is modest at best but will definitely go toward aoe threat.
2) You might consider dropping the icy talons talents. They're somewhat expensive. I would definitely put more points into black ice or bladed armor whatever you do. For an interesting discussion on imp icy talons, see http://pwnwear.com/2010/01/02/on-imp...ee-haste-buff/ (in general, I would also just start reading pwnwear regularly---it has helped my tanking more than i can justly describe.)
3) You might consider trying a 2 disease method. My rotation is DND-IT-PS-Pest-RT-BB. Toss HB's and BB's whenever you can after this. 2 diseases will make your BB do more threat.
4) You might consider trying tidy plates and threat plates---they let you see which adds you have aggro on and distinguish them from the ones which you don't.
5) I'm still trying to figure out what 3.3 means for frost, but what I have found is that IT now hits really hard threat-wise, which means that I can use it to regain aggro on a loose add instead of taunting and then doing my diseases.
6) If you're running pugs, then you are always going to be somewhat certain to lose and add or two (unless you are blessed with an awesome group). Be somewhat proactive about this and try to plan ahead. Mark one of the adds with a skull and another with an X so that you can predict where dps ought to be focusing. Also, you can sometimes tell which add might be a problem on a pull. e.g. the adds on the emalon encounter. There are 4 arranged in a square around the boss. When I do this pull, I run to the left and grab the aggro of the adds while the other tank grabs the boss. I'll drop dnd more or less where the closest on the left side is. As I run to that area, the adds will all come to that area, but the back right add normally doesn't make it there before the dps and heals start up so there is generally a good chance that I will lose that one. So what I normally do is put that add as my focus so that i can easily click and taunt/it before he even has a chance to cause any mischief. Anyway, that example is just an example about how you can anticipate loose adds.
I hope you find this helpful.
Anothing thing to consider is that it's nigh-impossible to keep aggro against multiple mobs that get single-target focus from different DPS.
The best thing to do is to agree that people burn down specific mobs first (the spiders, the casters), so you know what mobs get the most dps attention, and giving you a head start on all the other mobs at least. If you make clear certain mobs are to die first, any dps pulling aggro on other mobs are screwing up, and you shouldn't blame yourself for it.
Originally Posted by Kahmal
What they mean is that DW Frost generates more single target threat than 2H Frost. But not more AoE threat. You have to sacrifice several key AoE talents to get a decent DW build.
Originally Posted by Vedrin
For example, you don't have Bladed Armor which is one of the required threat talents for any build, be it single-target MT or AoE OT. I estimate you have about 26k armor in Frost Presence, and you currently have 2840 AP. 5/5 Bladed Armor would increase your AP by 726 in FP, which is almost a 30% increase for you. Huge.
AP buffs everything - autoattacks, Strikes, Spells, even diseases, the latter two being your AoE abilities. It buffs DnD (highest AoE threat modifier), Howling Blast (have you ever seen HB crit for 5k+ on multiple mobs around you?), and diseases.
Also, use Glyph of Howling Blast for AoE tanking, and Glyph of Disease for single-target. Spreading diseases without GoHB just takes too long, and DPS tend to forget to wait. For AoE tanking you only need FF (see Glacier Rot, Tundra Stalker - they only require FF not BP) anyway.
My advice, don't bother DW tanking till you get geared enough and just want to have some fun. It's much easier to make an effective 2H spec. I'd wager if you change to a spec like this, you won't have AoE threat problems anymore. If you really need Improved Icy Talons for your raid, then use this (though you lose Killing Machine which is a significant AoE threat talent combined w/ HB).
See the guide in my sig for more detailed explanations why (it says 5mans, but is applicable to AoE tanking in raids too).
Last edited by Kurtosis; 03-28-2010 at 10:16 PM.
So you've been given advice for frost, as an experienced blood tank let me take my turn. BLOOD CAN GENERATE AOE THREAT VERY VERY WELL, if you do it right. With the the blood spec your blood boil, not death and decay is your main threat generator. I usually only drop dnd at the beginning of a fight, maybe twice if 3 or more mobs are alive and it and the runes are off cd, BUT diseases and blood boil have priority. My aoe rotation goes something like this DND>IT>PS>PEST>BT>BB>DS>RP burn>BB>BB>refresh diseases, at this point you should have enough threat that you can just single target tank any mob that the dps is catching up on. If you have the t10 2set bonus, DND will make mobs stick to you like glue IF you follow this rotation, just drop it again as soon as its off cd. Also if there are less than 3 targets up, HS replaces blood boil, just make sure you position so your cleave can hit the other mob and you'll easily hold both, if the off-target is getting pulled, just put diseases up on one target, pest, then switch and put your heartstrikes on the other target. If you make a rotation mistake and don't have any runes up for pestilance and BT is down, that is when you use empower rune weapon. Don't worry about the 5 minute cd, it will probably be up the for the boss and you probably won't need it. I've out-threated every type of tank on aoe pulls in ICC 10 and 25 this way. In heroics...I'm the hatertank that uses the policy of you pull it you tank it lolz.
Straight up freaking awesome. Threat plates make working out who you have agro with easy mode.
Originally Posted by Evilcabell
Thanks a lot for the advice guys, you have given me a lot to think about.
I have changed my frost spec now to incorporate the bladed Armour and black ice talents and have switched to a 2h weapon,
So now im just testing out both the HB single disease rotation and the IT, PS, Pest rotation, trying to see which one works better for me
Thanks again for the advice, very helpful
After 3.3.3, I switched to a DW build, and I am really glad I found this thread. I will be going back to my 2H AOE build from pre-3.3.3, because I am having the same issues the OP had.
I have been useing a dw frost spec for my tanking for a while now i do just fine on 5 mans and raids i mean as long as dps give me a couple mins to splash the mobs and blood boil i hold agro pretty good. thinking switching to a blood spec but want to keep dw going http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...dtimmy&group=1 is my tank spec i use blood to dps with a 2hd