Revenge bypassing Shield slam on priority?

[Eisen]

As an aside, when I was running heroics last night, several times I noticed Revenge Double Proccing Sword and Board. I wonder if each hit has an individual chance to proc it, increasing SnB uptime significantly.

Good lord if that were true....That's sick. Really sick.

Tonight's a raid night so I'll have a chance to really test it myself.

[Muffin Man]

Well, my thought process is that any time you Revenge while SS is not on cooldown you are effectivly increasing your average time between SS by wasting potential SnB procs. SS has a 6s CD, revenge 5s, but SnB effectively reduces SS's CD to what I'd estimate to be an average of around 3s. While Rev does more damage per use, SS is used more often, using your Festergut numbers, more frequent Shield slams generate more DPS than Rev on CD. That leads me to believe that ensuring your Shield Slams come as frequently as possible would generate the highest DPS. I just kinda need a way to prove it.

Not proof here... but comparing to the accepted Arms rotation might be helpful.

Revenge is like MS (they both even have a 5 sec cd!). And SS is like Execute (in that other abiliites can proc it).

For arms warriors, it's better to MS -> Execute even wasting the chance that Execute can proc itself (which SS can't do). This was true even when Execute did more damage than MS (MS scales better, and I think ICC gear puts MS ahead of Execute now damage wise).

But then again Execute isn't available to use as often as SS so it's not a perfect example (neither as a proc nor as a regular ability).

[Darmaul]

For 25 mans it is still my general philosophy that TPS > DPS, even if you're not really having threat issues, the marginal DPS gain is probably pretty small..

I actually was looking at this and my conclusion was exactly the opposite. Specifically that the marginal TPS gain is probably pretty small. Where's your breakpoint? If they made Shield slam do 100 damage and 10,000 threat would you still pick it over Revenge doing 9800 dmg and 9950 threat?

Keep in mind that Revenge scales on Attack Power and Shield Slam scales on Shield Block value with a cap on block value. Based on current itemization (i.e. huge dearth of block value in T10 gear), Revenge is going to continually increase in damage and threat as you get better gear and Shield Slam may remain relatively static as the block value from extra strength is offset by lack of block value on gear or as you approach the block value cap.

The difference in threat (using above calculations) appears to be about 700. The difference in damage is 1662. So twice as much damage done as you'd gain in threat. To me, that *is* an interesting choice... if your dps are threat limited by a very small amount (very very small).

I'll be prioritizing Shield slam as my first "opener" ability and whenever Shield Block is up, but Revenge will get priority all other times.


I'll also note that when comparing damage of Shield Slam and Revenge using "theorycrafting" you need to take into account that Shield Slam will have 15% higher crit rate due to Critical Block talent.

[DnQuxiti]

I'll be prioritizing Shield slam as my first "opener" ability and whenever Shield Block is up, but Revenge will get priority all other times.

Here is where I am kind of stuck. I originally thought this would make the most sense when going for DPS, but I am not 100% sure that missing SnB procs is a good idea. Not only from the difference between SS and Devastate, but also from the fact that More use of SnB means I can get closer to my ideal 100% HS uptime.

[Inaara]

I was just looking over my parses for last night and it appears that Revenge was severly out performing SS.

Revenge average: 5286.8 = 5407.8 threat
Shield Slam average: 2942.5 = 4826.25 threat

Revenge crit average: 10647 = 10768 threat
Shield Slam crit average 6662.8 = 9662.64 threat

[Linedan]

As an aside, when I was running heroics last night, several times I noticed Revenge Double Proccing Sword and Board. I wonder if each hit has an individual chance to proc it, increasing SnB uptime significantly.

I was seeing double SnB proc messages last night as well while tanking multiple mobs, but I thought it was a potential problem with Mik's Scrolling Battle Text. I'll see if I see any single SnB messages in addition to double messages tonight.

[Raysere]

I was just looking over my parses for last night and it appears that Revenge was severly out performing SS.

Revenge average: 5286.8 = 5407.8 threat
Shield Slam average: 2942.5 = 4826.25 threat

Revenge crit average: 10647 = 10768 threat
Shield Slam crit average 6662.8 = 9662.64 threat

SS should crit almost twice as often though, which should even out the averages a little. The spreadsheet numbers I posted this morning are looking fairly accurate after all. Revenge is clearly ahead on damage and very close on threat. It seems a little too good a buff if you ask me...

[Inaara]

SS should crit almost twice as often though, which should even out the averages a little. The spreadsheet numbers I posted this morning are looking fairly accurate after all. Revenge is clearly ahead on damage and very close on threat. It seems a little too good a buff if you ask me...

Agreed, pretty OP. Can't wait to see my DPS in heroics with UA build lol. Gonna make some deeps cry tonight!

[Darmaul]

Here is where I am kind of stuck. I originally thought this would make the most sense when going for DPS, but I am not 100% sure that missing SnB procs is a good idea. Not only from the difference between SS and Devastate, but also from the fact that More use of SnB means I can get closer to my ideal 100% HS uptime.

I'm missing something here. What does more use of SnB have to do with 100% HS uptime? Are you saying the limiting factor on keeping HS up 100% is the rage you have to spend on non-SnB Shield Slams?

Because for me, I've found the limiting factor on keeping HS up 100% is activating the ability ever 1.7 seconds.

Since Revenge itself is a *very* low rage cost ability, I find it hard to believe that using it would reduce your rage significantly. And if 100% HS uptime is really your top priority, consider getting Glyph of Revenge and macro HS to your Revenge ability.

[Raysere]

Agreed, pretty OP. Can't wait to see my DPS in heroics with UA build lol. Gonna make some deeps cry tonight!

I tried UA earlier but losing warbringer in Heroics is just ugh. Then again, i tried it for half a VH, and trying to get a charge off before you enter combat one some of the portals just doesnt work. I tanked XT for weekly as UA, but since I basically did nothing for 60% of the time due to heart phase chaining I didn't really get any useful data on damage output. My threat was pretty nuts though, guessing I had a 3 or 4x threat lead on the DPS after the first 30 seconds or so. Itching to go beat up some tank and spank boss so I can see what it can really do.

[Inaara]

Dare I try it on festergut next week? lol..... maybe just patchwork.

[DnQuxiti]

Non SnB shield slams, as well as extra devastates, clearly not revenge. While 1 hit puts you at full rage, many of the bosses in ICC like to stop and do other things before they turn their attention back to beating on you. How I handle my ability use going into those can help cover the gap. Even aside from rage though, my main point was determining whether or not the actual damage is better doing it one way or the other. The Heroic strike thing was more of an aside.

[Bodasafa]

Before all this patch I had basically only used revenge in a limited rage situation.

I macro'd Dev+ HS and spammed it until SS was off CD from S&B or on its own.

Now I have come full circle back to what I was doing. I will macro Rev + HS. Spam Dev and that macro to work S&B procs and mix in SS on its own CD.

[Dreador]

Before all this patch I had basically only used revenge in a limited rage situation.

I macro'd Dev+ HS and spammed it until SS was off CD from S&B or on its own.

Now I have come full circle back to what I was doing. I will macro Rev + HS. Spam Dev and that macro to work S&B procs and mix in SS on its own CD.

I would run out of rage in seconds. Do you have separate binds as well for when you have avoidance streams?

[Bodasafa]

I would run out of rage in seconds. Do you have separate binds as well for when you have avoidance streams?

The first one I hardly ever got rage starved with the Dev+ HS, even in heroics. Of course I had 3/3 Puncture, 3/3 Imp HS, and 3/3 Focused Rage.

The second one you have to be a bit more careful with since you won't have a spec like that to support it with needing 2/2 Imp Revenge. I'm probably going to max out 5/5 Shield Spec, to encourage more Revenge procs and only have 2/3 Focused Rage. I won't have Puncture at all.

Realistically I just nail the macro when revenge is lit up, and again when everything is on CD and I'm flush with rage to let out the HS's.

I see less Heroic Striking happening now that revenge is back and your managing 2 procs, SS and Rev. So macroing it ensures your firing a few off to spend some of that excess rage without even thinking about it.

[Bodasafa]

I should also note that in ICC due to CotT, your less likely to have avoidance streaks, plus we all are gearing for EH. Really the only time the macros are an issue is if your not getting hit. In that case separate binds would be beneficial. Festergut comes to mind for when your not actually tanking him for example.

[Aggathon]

I actually was looking at this and my conclusion was exactly the opposite. Specifically that the marginal TPS gain is probably pretty small. Where's your breakpoint? If they made Shield slam do 100 damage and 10,000 threat would you still pick it over Revenge doing 9800 dmg and 9950 threat?

First off, that's an extreme example that doesn't really reflect reality. Secondly, with the discussion of SnB procs, the more procs you use the higher your TPS margin will be, so for every revenge you prioritize over a shield slam, you're not only losing the shield slam threat but the loss of additional shield slam threat margins as the fight progresses over time. In the current damage/mechanics yes, I choose shield slam over revenge any day, even if revenge is ~ 33% more damage per execution, however you also have to realize that since both are on cooldowns there's probably not going to be a lot of overlap as far as priority goes and it probably wouldn't matter that much if SnB didn't exist, but it does.

I see your point, but in my opinion DPS is not a tank's job, you wouldn't ask a warlock to mix in searing pain into their rotation to do more threat just because they can, in my mind the dichotomy is that clear. No one in a 25 man raid cares what the warrior did in DPS, all they care about is that the DPS had enough of a threat margin to safely go balls to the wall on the boss without having to worry about threat, just 1 less thing they could accidentally tunnel vision on.

The priority to me goes:
Survivability >> Threat >> DPS (for those non-math people >> means significantly greater than).

Now as a pre-empt, some people may call me out and say "but aren't you the one that says threat is like "I don't have to outrun the bear I just have to outrun you."" Yes, that is absolutely true as far as GEARING goes, but doing Job #2 (Threat) is all about rotation, and if you can optimize your rotation to do the threat job better, why wouldn't you?

Even at 9-10k TPS I still had dpsers that could ride my tail at high end levels, the more threat you do, the more dps everyone else can do, and that DPS increase is > yours. Every time a rogue or a hunter has to vanish, fd, TotT, or MD (or warlock soul shatter, or mage go invis, etc. etc.) is a time where damage is being lost. I'm willing to bet 1 mage spell critting is more overall damage done than the damage gained by changing your rotation, heh.

[Sirloinsteak]

The first one I hardly ever got rage starved with the Dev+ HS, even in heroics. Of course I had 3/3 Puncture, 3/3 Imp HS, and 3/3 Focused Rage.

The second one you have to be a bit more careful with since you won't have a spec like that to support it with needing 2/2 Imp Revenge. I'm probably going to max out 5/5 Shield Spec, to encourage more Revenge procs and only have 2/3 Focused Rage. I won't have Puncture at all.

Realistically I just nail the macro when revenge is lit up, and again when everything is on CD and I'm flush with rage to let out the HS's.

I see less Heroic Striking happening now that revenge is back and your managing 2 procs, SS and Rev. So macroing it ensures your firing a few off to spend some of that excess rage without even thinking about it.

i still used the dev bound to HS method last night and just hit rev and ss whenever they came up ... i seems to be pulling 9k-12k threat most of the night

[Darmaul]

Now as a pre-empt, some people may call me out and say "but aren't you the one that says threat is like "I don't have to outrun the bear I just have to outrun you."" Yes, that is absolutely true as far as GEARING goes, but doing Job #2 (Threat) is all about rotation, and if you can optimize your rotation to do the threat job better, why wouldn't you?

Even at 9-10k TPS I still had dpsers that could ride my tail at high end levels, the more threat you do, the more dps everyone else can do, and that DPS increase is > yours. Every time a rogue or a hunter has to vanish, fd, TotT, or MD (or warlock soul shatter, or mage go invis, etc. etc.) is a time where damage is being lost.

First, I'm not 100% convinced that at raid buffed levels of T10 gear that Revenge actually *is* less threat than shield slam. Especially when you add in things that increase your AP & damage (Enrage, ToTT, +armor procs w/ ATT, etc) that scale well with Revenge and less so with Shield Slam. I think the actual final comparison is way way closer in threat than it will ever appear to be on a dummy. I've got a WoL parse from my run that I'm examining, but it's hard to tell looking at totals which SS's were done with Shield Block up or was the revenge done while an armor procs / AP buffs were on.

Second, I totally agree with you that priority is Survivability, Threat, then damage. I would even agree if you said that until you have a 200k threat lead then SS should be prioritized. However, once you have sufficient total threat that DPS will never catch up, then eeking out a tiny bit of extra tps instead of doing damage is wasted energy. It's like dumping a cup of water into the ocean to make sure it stays full. If you're DPS are threat limited then absolutely, you need to focus on threat. But bosses don't die 'cause you did threat. They die 'cause you enabled the raid to do damage and did damage yourself.

Last night on PP we had a wipe with 88k HP left when the raid damage just blew everyone up. Looking at the parse I saw the warrior tank did 79 total shield slams and 3 revenges. If he'd changed up his priorities and done 40 Shield Slams and 44 revenges at 2k more damage each, *that* would have been the 88k needed. (though I'm NOT blaming the tank, it was dps's fault, he did his number 1 and number 2 job.)


I'll also agree that the tank should be self sufficient on threat. Relying on md / tricks on anything except the initial pull is gimping your raid. But I'd love to see Blizz continue the model that tanks can make a choice between increasing threat or increasing damage. That's an interesting choice and THAT will help define what's a good tank vs. bad tank. Just this single change obviously wouldn't be enough, but hopefully they'll continue this trend. Give tanks some high damage, damage=threat abilities to choose vs. moderate damage and high threat abilities.

Make it so a good tank is holding aggro and doing 2-3k dps and a GREAT tank is holding aggro and doing 4.5-6k dps.

[Aggathon]

I can agree with that. I guess something that also sticks in my craw is that blizzard doesn't seem to be running these numbers themselves and subsequently aren't balancing it right. It's one thing to balance between classes, but they seem to be failing to balance abilities within classes now.

"Hrmm... shield slam is too OP in PvP, let's buff devastate damage and nerf sbv scaling but increase the threat on shield slam!"
"Okay, now devastate is better than revenge and tanks aren't using it, let's buff it! What's a good number... ummm... 50%?"
"Hey guys... I think we just made revenge better than shield slam"
"crap..."