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Thread: The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Making Warcraft Too Easy?

  1. #41
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    I would agree with you Darksend that their needs to be an item for every slot on normal/heroic for 10 and 25. However I think they could do one better by making the items unique, as in not a replica with an extra socket and a hair more stats.

    If they like the complete replica of normal carrying over to heroic I'm fine with that, but I would like to see some of the encounters change drastically (like they did in Ulduar) instead of be almost exactly the same with maybe 1 new ability added and more damage. Same goes for the loot. The current model as is makes heroic versions very uninteresting in my opinion.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    I would agree with you Darksend that their needs to be an item for every slot on normal/heroic for 10 and 25. However I think they could do one better by making the items unique, as in not a replica with an extra socket and a hair more stats.

    If they like the complete replica of normal carrying over to heroic I'm fine with that, but I would like to see some of the encounters change drastically (like they did in Ulduar) instead of be almost exactly the same with maybe 1 new ability added and more damage. Same goes for the loot. The current model as is makes heroic versions very uninteresting in my opinion.
    I think it depends on how heroic modes are meant to be used.

    With things like OS 3D, it was just a way to get a little bonus gear. You weren't really meant to do it exclusively that way. With that kind of arrangement, they just need to make sure there's 1 piece that drops that is useful for each class and spec, rather than a complete set of gear for each class and spec.

    With things like heroic TOC10 and 25, where you can flip all the bosses into hard mode, or ICC where you get to pick and choose (but could theoretically just flip them all to hard mode as if there was no choice) I agree that the model should be to be able to just farm it in hard mode exclusively (if you are up for it), and be able to collect complete sets of gear without having to farm the other modes to fill in itemization gaps in the loot tables.

    Similarly, as was mentioned, there should be no gaps in the normal modes either, making it unnecessary to farm 10's if you are able to do 25's -- unless, of course, you want to.

  3. #43
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    Linear progression was broken in this expansion.

    A Fresh 80 can skip Naxx, OS, EoE, Ulduar and go straight to ToC after grinding out enough triumphs through the LFD tool. People should be required to complete the the raid instances in order (if only one time) before being allowed to move to the next highest one.

    In ICC you can toggle heroic bosses at will instead of being required to complete them in the correct order (more of an issue with lower spire since its not winged). That's just wrong IMO.

    I hope linear progression comes back in Cata.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    Linear progression was broken in this expansion.
    It wasn't broken for the people who are progressing more or less in lockstep with the release of each tier of content.

    For the folks who would get stalled somewhere, or are new to the game and come in late in the expansion, expecting them to progress linearly is a bit much to ask. It also makes it easier for a guild that is looking to recruit to find suitably geared applicants, and it also makes it easier to play catch-up if you take a break.

    This way, guilds don't have to farm old content over and over if they wind up having to gear some new guildies. I seem to recall a post or two somewhere about what hell it was to have to endlessly farm molten core....

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    It wasn't broken for the people who are progressing more or less in lockstep with the release of each tier of content.

    For the folks who would get stalled somewhere, or are new to the game and come in late in the expansion, expecting them to progress linearly is a bit much to ask. It also makes it easier for a guild that is looking to recruit to find suitably geared applicants, and it also makes it easier to play catch-up if you take a break.

    This way, guilds don't have to farm old content over and over if they wind up having to gear some new guildies. I seem to recall a post or two somewhere about what hell it was to have to endlessly farm molten core....
    I think you missed an important point from my post. I said:

    People should be required to complete the the raid instances in order (if only one time) before being allowed to move to the next highest one.
    Honestly requiring people to complete the content in order ONCE should not be a huge deal, it should actually be cool, especially for all the people crying I want to see the content. It also gives blizzard a little bit better return on their investment. Perhaps people like the instance and want to do it some more, perhaps they (god forbid) actually learn something about raiding from it.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    It wasn't broken for the people who are progressing more or less in lockstep with the release of each tier of content.

    For the folks who would get stalled somewhere, or are new to the game and come in late in the expansion, expecting them to progress linearly is a bit much to ask. It also makes it easier for a guild that is looking to recruit to find suitably geared applicants, and it also makes it easier to play catch-up if you take a break.

    This way, guilds don't have to farm old content over and over if they wind up having to gear some new guildies. I seem to recall a post or two somewhere about what hell it was to have to endlessly farm molten core....
    Yes but even the worst player can pug 4 weeks in a row and get a DBW and 4pc 264 gear and guilds now have no way of knowing good players from bad players. The ammount of applicants we get who do not even make it through the first week of their trial while being miles ahead gear wise than some of our better raiders simply because even though we killed DB the first week ICC was out we have only seen a single DBW and we probably DE about 75% of our hard mode drops also because they are just not upgrades. This not only wastes our time and that apps time but also wastes that apps money. We have absolutely zero way besides WMO and WoL to judge player skill before they transfer because gear is handed out so freely now and most pugs clear everything except sind and putricide.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Yes but even the worst player can pug 4 weeks in a row and get a DBW and 4pc 264 gear and guilds now have no way of knowing good players from bad players. The ammount of applicants we get who do not even make it through the first week of their trial while being miles ahead gear wise than some of our better raiders simply because even though we killed DB the first week ICC was out we have only seen a single DBW and we probably DE about 75% of our hard mode drops also because they are just not upgrades. This not only wastes our time and that apps time but also wastes that apps money. We have absolutely zero way besides WMO and WoL to judge player skill before they transfer because gear is handed out so freely now and most pugs clear everything except sind and putricide.
    Your guild turn over could be for many diffrent reasons, the player might have not liked the way your guild was set up. Mabe didn't like some of your other raid guild memebers/officers, or mabe it was a bad day for him (play wise). There are many other reasons then i have listed of why a person would not stay in a guild for long. My experiance is that alot of people stay in a guild because of the people not progression.

  8. #48
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    He's not saying they leave, i think he's saying he kicks them out because they don't meet his guild's standards.

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    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  9. #49
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    ah my bad, i personal would never transfer to find a raid guild; but mabe other peoples servers dont have many. =/

  10. #50
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    Correct kaz. As lore said, player skill means just as much as gear. When someone raids with us as a trial member, there are very clear distinctions between those who came from a progressed guild that they were a top raider in and the guild fell apart, verses someone who thinks they are a hot-shot stuck in a guild that is holding them back and they think they deserve a more progressed guild, verses people who very clearly got lucky with winning roles in pugs and even though they may have killed every encounter in ICC that is more a testament to getting into good pugs than their individual skill.

    Sure anyone can pull 10K DPS on a fight like patchwerk but throw in things like dodging malleable goos and collapsing for and spreading out the spores properly on festergut hard mode or moving out of the fire on blood queen and those 10K dps patchwerk parses die in the first 30 seconds of the fight even if every single piece of gear they have is iLvl 277. Is it unfair to ask an applicant who has never killed 25 man lich king to raid every single hard mode his first week in a new guild, no because we will probably never do normal modes again, we are a hard mode guild and we expect our apps to be up to that level. We explain every mechanic, give them ample time to ask questions if they do not understand something about the encounter, and then to have them die to something and say "O I DID NOT KNOW THAT HAPPENS IN THIS FIGHT" and it happens from people in full 264 gear and you just scratch your head and ask how.

    Gear =/= Skill but skill can most definitely make up for bad luck with drops (to an extent)

    Which I think is what lore is getting at as a whole in this video



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexthetroll View Post
    ah my bad, i personal would never transfer to find a raid guild; but mabe other peoples servers dont have many. =/
    Its not a matter of servers lacking raiding guilds. Every server has tons of them. People transfer servers because they want to get into better guilds. Perhaps there are only 1-3 really good guilds on their server and they are not taking applications for that persons class/role. If they want to move into a more progressed guild, a server transfer may be the right move.

    It all depends what kind of raiding experience your looking for.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Sure anyone can pull 10K DPS on a fight like patchwerk but throw in things like dodging malleable goos and collapsing for and spreading out the spores properly on festergut hard mode or moving out of the fire on blood queen and those 10K dps patchwerk parses die in the first 30 seconds of the fight even if every single piece of gear they have is iLvl 277. Is it unfair to ask an applicant who has never killed 25 man lich king to raid every single hard mode his first week in a new guild, no because we will probably never do normal modes again, we are a hard mode guild and we expect our apps to be up to that level. We explain every mechanic, give them ample time to ask questions if they do not understand something about the encounter, and then to have them die to something and say "O I DID NOT KNOW THAT HAPPENS IN THIS FIGHT" and it happens from people in full 264 gear and you just scratch your head and ask how.

    I agree that you can't judge a player by their gear anymore, but you also have to understand that everyone learns in different ways. Some people can watch video and listen to descriptions forever, but until they actually see the mechanics and experience them just won't get it. Once they've seen something once though and screwed it up, they may never make the same mistake again. Being that you are a hard mode guild, I guess it is certainly your decision how much room you give new raiders to prove themselves, but you have to have had raiders who your first impression of was 'they will never make it' who have actually ended up proving themselves.

  13. #53
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    These kinds of topics have a special place in my heart. There are always the cries of "Too easy!", "Now anyone can do it!", and the obligatory "I walked to school, in the snow, uphill both ways!" complaints. The MMO genre continues to evolve based on lessons learned to truly become a better gaming experience. Yes we all have our equally painful and enjoyable moments that we love to reminisce about and say, "Remember when…”. My first MMO was EQ, the game I loved to hate. I could tell you about things called "hell levels", endless corpse runs, top guilds locking lower guilds out of content, 72 hour quest MOB spawns, hours of XP grinding just to get that last bubble to level only to get trained at the zone line, die, lose that level, and have less XP than when the night started. This is what all MMOs were like prior to WoW. On one hand I could get on my high horse and talk about how all you kids have it easy today and you don't know what a real MMO is bla bla bla; OR I could suggest that EQ, as great as it was in its day, had significant design flaws. The game was grindy, the penalties too harsh, and heinous griefing was an every day event.

    I started playing WoW in 2004 and I was reinvigorated about the MMO genre. The pace of combat was so much quicker, leveling was quicker but still rewarding, the breadcrumb and theme park approach to questing was fun and exciting, getting “trained” by other players was gone, instancing eliminated guild lock outs of content, and on and on the fresh and innovative approach to MMO design went. Blizzard learned from EQ and other legacy MMOs. They figured out a way to make the game more accessible and enjoyable to a record breaking player base. Overnight the MMO player base for any one game jumped from a few 100K to millions! How...? Why...? Dare I say it was because they made the genre, their game, easier?! But that's exactly what they did. WoW was easier. WoW IS easier, compared to EQ. Easier is a relative term. Easier doesn't mean bad, yet that's exactly how most of these "the sky is falling" posts seem to imply. In the case of Wow, “easier” meant a smarter game design and innovative approaches. They took the painful lessons learned from MUDs, UO, EQ, and a slew of other first and second generation MMOs and made a better, yet easier game.

    And so it is true within WoW. I was there on day one. I remember the server issues at launch. Anyone remember when realms were listed by time zone and the player based freaked out? My first class was a hunter; the last class developed and didn't even have a talent tree. I hated PvP in MMOs, but I fell in love WoW’s version of PvP when battlegrounds were introduced. I'm not immune to complaining myself about changes. I for one loved Vanilla WoW PvP and can't stand Arenas, but I keep my complaints tempered by knowing this game has overwhelmingly evolved for the better; maybe not perfectly and without mistakes, but WoW today is a much better game than WoW in November 2004.

    Is the game getting "easier"? YES! But once again that does not mean "bad". We as a player base are smarter, more knowledgeable about encounters, gearing, speccing, etc.. Only 1% or less of the player base is truly in a world class guild. Most of us find ourselves in capable guilds that given the time and effort will clear much of the "end game" content. But remember, we are all balancing our own ever evolving lives, and when you bring together 30, 40, or more individuals from around the country or the world, each with their own life, it does become a challenge to bring everyone together to achieve a common goal on any given night; yet we do it time and time again. As WoW has evolved and become "easier", e.g. better, more and more players and guilds have become capable of enjoying the challenges and content developed by Blizzard. That top 1% will still rip through content at break neck speed. As for the rest of us, we'll get there soon enough; and if a lesson learned is applied by the developers in the form of a patch, a "nerf", or a buff that makes the game "easier", e.g. better, then so be it.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eltoronegro View Post
    These kinds of topics have a special place in my heart. There are always the cries of "Too easy!", "Now anyone can do it!", and the obligatory "I walked to school, in the snow, uphill both ways!" complaints. The MMO genre continues to evolve based on lessons learned to truly become a better gaming experience. Yes we all have our equally painful and enjoyable moments that we love to reminisce about and say, "Remember when…”. My first MMO was EQ, the game I loved to hate. I could tell you about things called "hell levels", endless corpse runs, top guilds locking lower guilds out of content, 72 hour quest MOB spawns, hours of XP grinding just to get that last bubble to level only to get trained at the zone line, die, lose that level, and have less XP than when the night started. This is what all MMOs were like prior to WoW. On one hand I could get on my high horse and talk about how all you kids have it easy today and you don't know what a real MMO is bla bla bla; OR I could suggest that EQ, as great as it was in its day, had significant design flaws. The game was grindy, the penalties too harsh, and heinous griefing was an every day event.

    I started playing WoW in 2004 and I was reinvigorated about the MMO genre. The pace of combat was so much quicker, leveling was quicker but still rewarding, the breadcrumb and theme park approach to questing was fun and exciting, getting “trained” by other players was gone, instancing eliminated guild lock outs of content, and on and on the fresh and innovative approach to MMO design went. Blizzard learned from EQ and other legacy MMOs. They figured out a way to make the game more accessible and enjoyable to a record breaking player base. Overnight the MMO player base for any one game jumped from a few 100K to millions! How...? Why...? Dare I say it was because they made the genre, their game, easier?! But that's exactly what they did. WoW was easier. WoW IS easier, compared to EQ. Easier is a relative term. Easier doesn't mean bad, yet that's exactly how most of these "the sky is falling" posts seem to imply. In the case of Wow, “easier” meant a smarter game design and innovative approaches. They took the painful lessons learned from MUDs, UO, EQ, and a slew of other first and second generation MMOs and made a better, yet easier game.

    And so it is true within WoW. I was there on day one. I remember the server issues at launch. Anyone remember when realms were listed by time zone and the player based freaked out? My first class was a hunter; the last class developed and didn't even have a talent tree. I hated PvP in MMOs, but I fell in love WoW’s version of PvP when battlegrounds were introduced. I'm not immune to complaining myself about changes. I for one loved Vanilla WoW PvP and can't stand Arenas, but I keep my complaints tempered by knowing this game has overwhelmingly evolved for the better; maybe not perfectly and without mistakes, but WoW today is a much better game than WoW in November 2004.

    Is the game getting "easier"? YES! But once again that does not mean "bad". We as a player base are smarter, more knowledgeable about encounters, gearing, speccing, etc.. Only 1% or less of the player base is truly in a world class guild. Most of us find ourselves in capable guilds that given the time and effort will clear much of the "end game" content. But remember, we are all balancing our own ever evolving lives, and when you bring together 30, 40, or more individuals from around the country or the world, each with their own life, it does become a challenge to bring everyone together to achieve a common goal on any given night; yet we do it time and time again. As WoW has evolved and become "easier", e.g. better, more and more players and guilds have become capable of enjoying the challenges and content developed by Blizzard. That top 1% will still rip through content at break neck speed. As for the rest of us, we'll get there soon enough; and if a lesson learned is applied by the developers in the form of a patch, a "nerf", or a buff that makes the game "easier", e.g. better, then so be it.
    Easier does not mean better. Your examples of the game becoming "better" over time are issues dealing with server stability not with content. The content can be much harder and SHOULD be much harder in my opinion. There should be adequate risk vs. reward and right now there is far to much reward for the risk involved. To prove your point about easy=better I will say this. They can make the game better (for me that means go back to the days of vanilla and BC and find a nice mix in between) and I will keep my account going. If they make it easier (in the way they did WotLK when you can log on and do tasks that involve no risk and get handed large rewards) then i will cancel my subscription for good and wait for SW:ToR very patiently but with excitement. Easier doe not equal better.

  15. #55
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    The thing that deflated your point for me was that you had to put in that you will quit if things dont improve. This is more drama than anyone cares for in these boards nor should it be used as an exclamation of your point. If you want to quit thats between you and your guild but im here to shoot ideas and learn somethings i never thought of before.

    Im looking forward to what Cataclysm has in store, so far things being floated around have piqued my interest. We wont know how things pan out till we are playing Cataclysm since design always shifts when a small player base (testers) turn into a large player base. Normal/Hard mode wasnt even an idea till Lich King came out, so expect surprises.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razzdango View Post
    Easier does not mean better. Your examples of the game becoming "better" over time are issues dealing with server stability not with content. The content can be much harder and SHOULD be much harder in my opinion. There should be adequate risk vs. reward and right now there is far to much reward for the risk involved. To prove your point about easy=better I will say this. They can make the game better (for me that means go back to the days of vanilla and BC and find a nice mix in between) and I will keep my account going. If they make it easier (in the way they did WotLK when you can log on and do tasks that involve no risk and get handed large rewards) then i will cancel my subscription for good and wait for SW:ToR very patiently but with excitement. Easier doe not equal better.
    bye. /wave

  17. #57
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    There will always be those few people that honestly believe that Blizzard sat down and said, "Let's make this game for Mr. Smith, and if other people like it, that's pretty cool." The reality is the opposite. Blizzard sat down and said, "Let's make this a game for the average players, and if Mr. Smith likes it as well, that's pretty cool."

    WoW will continue to evolve because it is a game that is driven by the majority of the player base. I for one am not getting any younger. I remember when dying halfway though world 6-1 of Marior Bro's meant going all the way back to the beginning. I swallowed it because I didn't have an option. Then games evolved. Suddenly they invented these crazy things called checkpoints. Yes, I think that made games better. I don't feel as though I'm cheating when I return to the star post in a level of Sonic the Hedgehog.

    To be honest, ragequitting because you don't like the changes coming in a game doesn't bother me in the least. This is simply because I won't even know you're gone. It's no offense, but in a server of thousands of people, a couple grumpy quitters isn't going to upset the balance and effect my gameplay experience.

    I agree with 99% of everything Blizzard has done with their games since the moment I played WarCraft way back in the day. No other company has their ear closer to the heartbeat of their playerbase.

    Like it has been said over and over againm "easy" is a relative term. Yes WoW is becoming more accessable, and that is a very, very good thing.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    I think some Wrath raiders are in a sense cheated out of becoming capable raiders, AoEing your way throught Heroics and Naxx aren't giving you nearly as much experiance as TBC Heroics did.

    On top of that DBM practically steers for you, I mean I know I can play w/o the alerts, like when it wasn't updated for new wings, but others may not have developed their own raid awareness.
    a raid is still a raid and a dungeon is still a dungeon

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