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Thread: Dual-Wield Warrior (No Titan's Grip)

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    Dual-Wield vs. Titan's Grip (Combat Logs Posted)

    Look further down the thread for combat log postings.

    I was messing around with my Fury spec earlier today and I had an epiphany of sorts. I've noticed a lot of Fury gear with the haste stat on it. Now Flurry gives us a haste boost already, but doubling that with a proc trinket with haste on it, as well as a potion can give you some pretty insane results. I practiced hitting the combat dummy with my two 2-handed weapons, then with two 1-handed weapons. I was doing about the same amount of DPS, and one of my 1-handers was significantly less powerful than my 2-handers in terms of stats.

    So I am wondering if anyone rolls warrior with just two 1-handers? And is it possible to find a viable talent spec with DPS that is on par with a warrior using Titan's Grip?
    Last edited by Sliverspark; 03-15-2010 at 01:53 PM.

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    I roll with 1 handers on my 70 warrior (experience gain turned off).
    I have wanted to mess around with it at 80, however I still need to find a good second 1 hander to use. I haven't found much info out there, but I'm sure that it is possible, just be ready for a lot of people to give you crap about it.

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    Personally, I think it's possible, with the right person, you can roll any spec you want and still top the DPS charts. I got my hands on a haste potion when I was using the combat dummy, and with flurry, I was at 1.14/1.00 attack speed. I was literally hitting so fast, my animations couldn't keep up. My DPS went through the roof as well. I can't imagine using this with a haste proc trinket. I am going to do some experimenting; but I'd still like to see what people think about this, and if it's possible to pull it off.

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    Record some combat logs of both Titan's Grip DPS and 2 1-handed DPS.

    Control as many variables as possible. Don't use a Haste Pot (Don't think you can use more than one of these per combat session so minimal gains for raid dpsing) make sure to run sufficiently long sample times (like 15min for each variable or longer).

    Post up those numbers. It would be interesting to see what you come up with.

    I'm not sure you'll turn up any thing new since, in essence, you are trying to argue that Titan's Grip, gemmed for Str or ArP is less effective than w 1-handed weapons with Haste stacking. That flies contrary to a lot of theory crafting. But it never hurts to challenge something. Sometimes you end up right.
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    I ran about 8 tests. Titan's Grip in Berserker Stance and Battle Stance on a level 80 target, then on a boss target. Then I dropped the talent and did the same tests dual-wielding two 1-handed weapons. The results were better than I anticipated. WMO won't allow me to publicly share my combat log, I did find another site that does though.

    However, I have chosen not to post my results at this time because first: It took me forever to run these tests, and I am going to have to rummage through all of my combat logs (which is A LOT) to find the appropriate ones; since they are archived. Having new talents for each arena season throws teams off, and also gives you an edge. I will also be using this new-found spec for PvE as well. I only tested a Fury spec, but will test an Arms spec in the near future.

    -Fixed
    Last edited by Sliverspark; 03-14-2010 at 08:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sliverspark View Post
    I ran about 8 tests. Titan's Grip in Berserker Stance and Battle Stance on a level 80 target, then on a boss target. Then I dropped the talent and did the same tests dual-wielding two 1-handed weapons.
    pretty sure that 1hander dual weild will not out-perform titan's grip if played right. sure on a test dummy you are going to get consistently more rage due to the lower swing time so you can spam hs more, but in a raid environment with buffs tg will significantly outperform 1hander dw due to the added weapon damage and higher stats on both weapons even with the 10% less dmg.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sliverspark View Post
    However, I have chosen not to post my results at this time because first: It took me forever to run these tests, and I am going to have to rummage through all of my combat logs (which is A LOT) to find the appropriate ones; since they are archived. And second, I don't want to reveal any of my play strategies to anyone. I know it sounds a bit obsessive, but having new talents for each arena season throws teams off, and also gives you an edge. I will also be using this new-found spec for PvE as well. I only tested a Fury spec, but will test an Arms spec in the near future. Thanks for encouraging me to choose a different path, Arikak. Heh heh...
    so basically you are saying "im changing to 1hander dw but im not going to tell you why or show you the math behind my decision". wow, good thing people like landsoul, bwarner and other great dps warriors have run countless hours of tests and made their findings public.

    and fury in pvp isn't as good as arms since there isn't a guaranteed ms and no unrelenting assualt so i don't know what edge you are referring to.
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    I had to fix my previous reply. I have full intentions of posting my results here. I have a lot of combat logs to go through and I figured it would be better just to run the tests again, perhaps a bit longer so I can get more accurate results. I don't know when this will be however.

    I think Fury PvP can be much better than Arms, if played right. I think all specs have the potential to kick ass; if played right. Right now, EVERYONE rolls Arms in arena. By this time, people know how to kill an Arms warrior, and expect no different in any match they come across with an enemy warrior. I hate 2-handed weapons. I never used them leveling, and I saw no increase in anything using them at level 80. Why would I want to dual-wield two weapons that each have a 3.40 attack speed when the numbers below ring true:

    v. Level 80 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
    v. Level 81 mob: 5.5% / dual-wield: 24.5%
    v. Level 82 mob: 6.0% / dual-wield: 25% (level of most heroic bosses)
    v. Level 83 mob: 8.0% / dual-wield: 27% (level of raid bosses)

    It's preposterous. If you have a 27% miss chance why in the nine hells would you want to put the slowest weapon in the game in BOTH HANDS?!

    Let's break it down to professional game mechanics here and try to look at it from Blizzard's point of view. If there was one spec, the best spec, the most damaging, nothing can come close to it; Blizzard would nerf it, (they did when Titan's Grip was originally introduced. I rolled Fury and hit so hard it almost felt like cheating to me). This is why I believe there are many other specs besides the one I am using that I believe are more than viable in both PvE and PvP environments. I think people find a good, easy spec to play (not saying Arms is easy, but it isn't exactly hard either), they post it, and people roll with it because of it's popularity and playability factor. Did anyone stack haste/strength instead of armor penetration? Did anyone stack critical strike/strength instead of armor penetration? I have yet to find any place that has records of these things, (and if you do know of a place, please post it). My conclusion: They will turn out to be virtually the same in damage output because it's needed for game balance. It's the most logical reasoning to use when trying to figure these things out.

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    logical or not, the math doesn't lie. this has been tested countless times on elitistjerks and tg with 2handers wins every time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sliverspark View Post
    Did anyone stack haste/strength instead of armor penetration? Did anyone stack critical strike/strength instead of armor penetration?
    I gem pure Str in red and blue slots and Crit/Str in yellows if it results in a Str socket bonus. Due to Improved Zerk Stance, I have a lot of Strength and hit really hard. Do I miss sometimes? Yes, my white damage will, but my specials don't, and they hit really hard. I don't have any WWS or WoL reports to show, cause I always tank raids. However I know there are plenty of parses out there with str/crit Fury Warriors in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    logical or not, the math doesn't lie. this has been tested countless times on elitistjerks and tg with 2handers wins every time.
    No, the math doesn't lie. I'm rolling dual-wield 1-handers because the DPS and damage output was higher than Titan's Grip when I tested it. There are too many variables where Titan's grip just doesn't hack it.

    What tests are you referring to? I'd like to see some comparisons myself.

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    I'd like to see some of your parses, maths, and/or logs. Plenty of TG math has been posted, where is yours?

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    I did an experiment at one point with a 51/20/0 build that used two one-handed swords with Bladestorm and 5/5 Dual-Wielding in the Fury tree (no Flurry, though) and put up alright dps numbers, although it was situational at best (Bladestorm did great damage, other attacks not so much), but whether that build I experimented with or the one that you're trying out, a lot is going to depend on what weapons you have.
    If you have high end one-handed swords and old 2-handed swords, you're naturally going to have a better dps turnout with the one-handers (for example, Bloodvenom Blade has about the same damage and dps as the Betrayer of Humanity from Naxx-25, and is a one-handed weapon). Now, if they're comparable in item level, the 2-handed weapon is going to have more damage and dps, but swing slower - even with a slower swing speed, though, generally the added damage on Whirlwinds, Insta-Slams, and Bloodthirst will win out in the long run. With two one-handers, you're melee damage will likely go up quite a bit, particularly if you stack Haste, but it will likely see lower returns on Whirlwind, Slam, etc. unless the actual weapon damage isn't all that different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sliverspark View Post
    There are too many variables where Titan's grip just doesn't hack it.

    What tests are you referring to? I'd like to see some comparisons myself.
    and there are many variables where non-tg will show even dps with tg, but once you put it into a raid setting (the type of setting that really matters) and execute a proper rotation tg will put up the best numbers.

    plenty of warriors like i mentioned in my previous post have ran these same exact tests and have posted their findings on elitistjerks. not one has shown dual one-handers outperforming tg. please post your dps numbers and length of fights (i don't care about a full parse or log) with the sets used in the comparison.

    if you were just going to keep the numbers to yourself you shouldn't have bothered posting here about it. this website is about information sharing, not "i've got numbers that proves everyone wrong but i'm not going to show them" on the basis that if you share it your "edge" with fury in serious arenas will be compromised (i really hope you are joking about that btw).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    and there are many variables where non-tg will show even dps with tg, but once you put it into a raid setting (the type of setting that really matters) and execute a proper rotation tg will put up the best numbers.

    plenty of warriors like i mentioned in my previous post have ran these same exact tests and have posted their findings on elitistjerks. not one has shown dual one-handers outperforming tg. please post your dps numbers and length of fights (i don't care about a full parse or log) with the sets used in the comparison.

    if you were just going to keep the numbers to yourself you shouldn't have bothered posting here about it. this website is about information sharing, not "i've got numbers that proves everyone wrong but i'm not going to show them" on the basis that if you share it your "edge" with fury in serious arenas will be compromised (i really hope you are joking about that btw).
    I will post the information when I have time to in the next day or so. And I'm not joking about it, I honestly don't think it matters what spec you roll, as long as you know how to use it efficiently in any given fight.

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    There is also a large discrepancy between testing on a training dummy and a fully raid-buffed environment. Just because you may have gotten higher dps with two 1-handers, doesn't mean that will translate to higher dps when fully raid-buffed.

    And if you want people to take it seriously, you need to list the gearsets for both setups along with parses of both. Because yes, you will do more dps with two ilevel 251 1-handers than you will with two ilevel 219 2-handers. Or if you are under hit/expertise cap with the 2-handers but not the 1-handers. Etc.

    No one is saying that 1-handed Fury is useless, far from it. You can do "good* dps with it, however you will do *higher* dps with equivalently itemized and item-level 2-handers.

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    No one is saying that 1-handed Fury is useless, far from it.
    there's times with my random heroic frost daily when i get an undergeared tank i'll throw on some one handers just to lessen my damage and threat a little. but again, in a raid environment it just doesn't put out the numbers that 2handers can.

    i'm looking forward to your numbers and gearsets used sliverspark.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sliverspark View Post
    It's preposterous. If you have a 27% miss chance why in the nine hells would you want to put the slowest weapon in the game in BOTH HANDS?!
    I just want to point out that with ToC25+ geared fury warrior, the only thing that can miss is your off hand melee attacks. Your main hand melee attacks are almost always converted into HS which means that it can't miss as long as you are hit capped (5% + 3% from Precision). Your rage comes from off hand melee attacks and 5% hit is fine to keep you filled with rage.
    Last edited by Valdur; 03-15-2010 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Typo
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    I think the numbers may have been off because my original tests were ran for 15 minutes.

    I ran some new tests today, six minutes each. I chose to run for six minutes because it seems a fairly average amount of time it takes to get a raid boss down. In an actual raid environment, some fights may last longer, or much shorter. I felt six minutes would provide me with the most accurate numbers.

    Gear Used:

    Weapons

    Titan's Grip Build - Main-hand / Off-hand

    Non-Titan's Grip Build - Main-hand / Off-hand

    *All weapons item level 20. I found it increasingly hard to find a set of weapons for both specializations that were of the same item level, that is why I bought and used these. Furthermore, I felt it was the only way to get the most accurate information possible.

    Armor

    Shirt - Antiseptic-Soaked Dressing

    *Besides my shirt, I didn't use any other armor, no trinkets, no jewelry. I don't own enough pieces of armor to compliment both specializations. Even if I did, I wouldn't have done things any differently here. This takes out almost every variable and gives us the best numbers.

    Talent Specializations Used:

    Titan's Grip Build

    Two-Handed Weapon Specialization 3/3
    Titan's Grip 1/1

    Non-Titan's Grip Build

    Two-Handed Weapon Specialization 0/0
    Titan's Grip 0/0
    Improved Demoralizing Shout 4/4 (Simply dumped my last couple points in here)



    TEST RESULTS *Look at the "Comment" for each log to determine test type.



    Titan's Grip is number one for DPS and damage output it seems. I think my previous tests were ran too long to really determine the best outcome. I humbly apologize. I still don't like using it, or any two-hander for that matter and I encourage everyone who reads this to read between the lines and use whatever specialization you are happy with. As long as you know how to pull the right DPS, you should be fine.
    Last edited by Sliverspark; 03-15-2010 at 02:31 PM.

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    keep in mind also, that these "results" will be further skewed in the favor of TG when you realize that the sheer number of stats you gain from 2 2handers versus 2 1handers grossly outweights everything else 1 handers bring to the table.

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    all you did was test white swings? idk cause wol confooses the hell out of me...

    do an actual fury rotation with both specs and with those white weapons and you will see tg pull ahead. equip real weapons and you will see tg gain even more.
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