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Thread: Improved Demoralizing Shout

  1. #1
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    Improved Demoralizing Shout

    I've done some searching have yet to come up with a good answer so I not posting the question. Does Demo Shout have a place in a Prot warriors arsenal? I've been reviewing logs from alot of our guild runs into ICC and rarely if ever see it used. Is there a reason not to use it in favor of something better I'm not aware of? I'm thinking that it might help out a bunch on the 25m Festergut fight. Possibly Saurfang as well.

  2. #2
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    demo shout is amazing, improved demo is just more demo for your money, it's harder tos pec into so it's not as popular but it's in my spec because i don't have a readily available ret paladin in my 10 mans, most ret paladins will pick it up and provide the same debuff.

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  3. #3
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    I believe it's called vindication.... but I could be wrong.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  4. #4
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    Demo shout (Warrior), Demo Roar (feral) are both baseline skills for the class, they require one GCD to apply every 30 or so seconds. They are both Improved by talents, but these talents are seldom-taken in standard raid specs because they require reasonably heavy point investment, taking points from other important areas.

    On the other hand, Vindication (Paladin) can be accessed by placing 12 points in the ret tree. It's as strong as Improved Demo Shout/Roar and is applied automatically by a Paladin's damaging attacks. Most Prot Paladins already invest 10 or more points in the Ret tree as it is, so taking it is not as much of a burden as say, a Warrior losing Impale/Deep Wounds to spec deeper into Fury for Imp. Demo. Ret Paladins can spec into Vindication without much loss at all, and due to the multi-target nature of their damage, should provide fairly reasonable coverage. Vindication is simply just the easier option.

  5. #5
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    I don't have much threat problems, even including stretches where our 10 man lacked hunters/rogues. My raid also lacks anyone else who's willing to spec into vindication or any other warriors and until now no feral tanks.

    So... I've been running 5/10/56 since Ulduar. It's probably more unconventional than I originally assumed, but that extra edge helps, especially since we rarely sport any 25 man gear in the raid.

    For the math and debates on whether you need it or not:
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...is-it-worth-it
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...718#post242718

  6. #6
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  7. #7
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    same here Muffin, since late ulduar, 5/10/56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  8. #8
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    If you can duel spec prot you get the best of both worlds to cover all situations. See the armory link in my signature line.

    However as mentioned above if you run with another class that can cover the debuff then you don't need it.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodasafa View Post
    However as mentioned above if you run with another class that can cover the debuff then you don't need it.

    Unless said person:

    • Attacks a Different mob from what you are tanking
    • Dies
    • Doesn't Log in
    In which case you are taking more damage because you didn't talent it. This may or may not be an issue depending on the encounter, but if you are doing 25 man content it is assumed you have access to a Fully Powered AP Debuff on the Mob(s) being tanked at all times. This is espically true for Hard Mode content.

    -Fenier

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raysere View Post
    On the other hand, Vindication (Paladin) can be accessed by placing 12 points in the ret tree. It's as strong as Improved Demo Shout/Roar and is applied automatically by a Paladin's damaging attacks. Most Prot Paladins already invest 10 or more points in the Ret tree as it is, so taking it is not as much of a burden as say, a Warrior losing Impale/Deep Wounds to spec deeper into Fury for Imp. Demo. Ret Paladins can spec into Vindication without much loss at all, and due to the multi-target nature of their damage, should provide fairly reasonable coverage. Vindication is simply just the easier option.
    As a note on this, Vindication uptime on bosses can sometimes be problematic depending on your gear and raid comp. Since the PPM nerfs a couple patches back, less stuff procs Vindication and it has a low PPM, so it does sometimes fall off when facing boss level mobs if your hit/expertise are not up to snuff. Over at maintankadin, we were seeing instances where Vindication fell off and stayed off for decent amounts of time, simply due to PPM and miss mechanics. Applications are automatic which is nice though.

    EDIT: here was the discussion on Vindication uptime.

  11. #11
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    If you don't raid with both a prot pally and a ret pally, I'd pick up a secondary tank spec with 5/5 imp demo for heroic fights. The bonus ap reduction is pretty significant. I raid with both a prot pally and a ret pally, and it's rare for me to actually need to demo the mobs myself. Fury warriors can also pick up 5/5 imp demo without sacrificing much dps at all.

  12. #12
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    uses demo shout is fine, imp demo shout is meh, I won't use take imp. take some thing for more threat or more tougher IMO
    I want to be a gnome shaman with mechanical chickens on sticks for totems

  13. #13
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    if threat isn't an issue, why wouldn't you increase your entire raid's survivability on physical damage fights by bringing up imp demo, even if you're not tanking the mob, you're providing a stronger debuff on the boss, like i said, i don't have a ret pally in my 10 mans, and our guild doesn't have a prot pally. So if the ret paladins in our 25s aren't on the target, or end up dying, we're sitting at 4-5% more damage taken on the tank, and on hard modes, that can make or break a tank during transitions or healer movement/targeted effects. If my threat isn't a problem, and I can boost my own and other tank's survivability, I'd take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  14. #14
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    If you don't have threat issues, specing for more threat gives you what exactly? A bit more DPS? Let's say you take Deep Wounds and we'll be generous and say it's 5% of your damage (may be more may be less, doesn't matter for the example) Let's pretend you are doing 2500 DPS tanking. It's like 125 DPS? On a fight that 125 DPS over 5 minutes is like 37,500 Damage. Less then 40k Damage shouldn't make or break your fights. Your taking a extra 5% could 'easily' make or break your fight esp if the healers have a lot of random raid damage or movement to deal with.

    For druids the call is often between 4% damage or 5% mitigation. If threat isn't an issue, I can think of no situation where that extra 100-200DPS over the course of a entire fight should really make or break defeating the encounter. If it is, your DPS need to pick it up. The 5% extra mitigation gives healers more breathing room, and is far more likely to do more for raid success.

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